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Did they throw up a graphic of the speed traps yet? I want to see how poo poo that mclaren really is.
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Mar 14, 2015 15:13
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Zombywuf posted:When Jense says the car's really drivable in the middle of the corner is that him saying that there's so little power that he couldn't spin up the rear wheels if he wanted to? He means it's fine when it's on two wheels. Alonso must be praying for a migraine before Sepang.
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Mar 14, 2015 15:15
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how has honda made such a bad engine how
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Mar 14, 2015 15:37
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serious gaylord posted:Did they throw up a graphic of the speed traps yet? I want to see how poo poo that mclaren really is. I saw it on Twitter earlier, don't remember the numbers but whatever you're imagining is accurate
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Mar 14, 2015 15:48
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Now that I've sobered up its pretty laughable that Lewis has the championship locked up and the first races hasn't even started yet.
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Mar 14, 2015 15:55
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1500quidporsche posted:Now that I've sobered up its pretty laughable that Lewis has the championship locked up and the first races hasn't even started yet. Is it his fault that he's #blessed with amazing talent and a great car?
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Mar 14, 2015 16:01
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serious gaylord posted:Did they throw up a graphic of the speed traps yet? I want to see how poo poo that mclaren really is. Not surprisingly, they were in the bottom in the graphic I saw. 312.5 I think? Only two or three other drivers were under 320. Hamilton was at 323. Bottas 329. EDIT: found 
ColonelCurmudgeon fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Mar 14, 2015 |
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Mar 14, 2015 16:01
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Sebastian Vettel posted:Is it his fault that he's #blessed with amazing talent and a great car? Certainly not but it is everyone else's fault for dropping the ball so early. Butterass was my only hope but he continues to gently caress up Q3.
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Mar 14, 2015 16:02
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Mclaren are hilariously bad  like, i mean.. 
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Mar 14, 2015 16:08
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#PointsZeroF1Car
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Mar 14, 2015 16:20
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I have lost a lot of respect for Alonso
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Mar 14, 2015 16:38
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El Hefe posted:I have lost a lot of respect for Alonso Don't speak ill of the dead.
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Mar 14, 2015 16:39
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#ForzaAlo
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Mar 14, 2015 16:42
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Woke up to McLaren dead last, redbull seems worse than last year. Hope some of you guys are Ham fans. It's gunna be his show all loving year. Get hosed Lewis.
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Mar 14, 2015 16:44
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I said a while ago that I'd do up some form of marshaling guide or something for the new thread. I kinda actually forgot about it till now, so here it is. A bit about myself, first off. I've been watching F1 for about 15 years or so, I started marshaling at my local track back in 2006 and worked my first GP in 2010. At my local track, I'm the Chief Marshal and in Montreal I have experience as a Deputy Chief Post Marshal but I'm still very new - at 27 I have a very large number of years to catch up; a few people on my crew in Montreal have been working Pro events since before I was born! To put it bluntly, I'm not some insane expert who has dealt with every situation in the universe and I have only worked 5 GP's. Each time you go trackside, there's a new chance to see something totally crazy and unexpected happen, so you're learning all the time in this. What this post is going to be all about is the basic ideas that we use to make sure a race is controlled in a safe manner - none of it is really complicated or hard to understand! I've seen a lot of misconceptions at certain times when there has been incidents that have happened over the years. People start questioning stuff that my compatriots are doing - the most recent example is obviously the green flag being displayed at the post at Bianchi's horrible crash at Suzuka - so hopefully this will give a bit more depth to some of the things you might see on TV. This is mostly going to be about F1 - because this is the F1 thread! F1 uses the same flag rules and procedures for all series that the FIA sanctions, but each does have minor differences ie Code 60 in WEC. Series like Indycar and TUDOR use slightly modified flags with some very different procedures. The SCCA uses very different flag rules from the FIA, but the basics for every form of closed circuit motorsport are exactly the same. The Basics Sectors This is a highly detailed satellite image of our track!  The big round black things are corner stations and the white shape things are light panels. This is 3 marshal posts at some race track I drew up - I could probably replace Tilke I think! The grey lines are the barriers, and you can see that there's a multitude of cutouts available to shove broken cars. So what are the red lines? Before we get into what flag means what and how you use it and all of that, there needs to be some kind of standard established so that the flags have consistent use all the way around the track. To do this, the track is broken up into different sectors called... sectors! If you're on stand 1 in that picture, your sector goes from a line perpendicular to the track at your stand all the way to the next perpendicular line at the next stand. That's what those poorly drawn red lines indicate - Station 1 is responsible for flagging every incident from the first red line to the 2nd. Station 2 is responsible from the 2nd red line to the 3rd and so on. They are the one of the most important things when it comes to marshaing - they directly dictate what flags go out when a car is in any point on the track with no ambiguity, they help race control understand immediately where an accident is before they can see it on a CCTV camera, and many more things. When marshals are new, one very common question is "What flag do I use if..." and almost any answer usually goes back to how the sectors work. AS you can see, it's a really simple concept! Who's on a flag stand? There are typically 3-4 flaggers on a marshaling post and depending on the layout of the sector the post is covering and the series running the event, there may be additional intervention marshals around the sector. On each marshaling sector itself, you have: The yellow flag marshal who looks down stream from the stand for any incidents. They are also responsible for debris flags. The blue flag marshal, who looks up stream from the stand to do the blue flagging. They're also paying attention to the station before to see what their status is ie, if the station before goes yellow, drop that blue flag and put the green out! This marshal is also the eyes and legs for the yellow flag marshal - our number one rule is to not have your back to traffic, but the yellow flagger sorta by definition has to do just that. The blue flagger must be able to get the yellow flagger out of the way as quickly as possible if something's coming. The comms marshal - They make all the radio transmissions to race control, such as car x is off and rejoining, etc. Relaying the right information is really important obviously. Nearly everyone is absolutely horrified to do the comms their first time - it can be quite intimidating! The lights panel operator is the marshal who operates the lights panel. All the flags have the same use, except we only control certain ones (more on that in the next section) on the light panel. The panels themselves funtion as almost a secondary set of stations, each having their own sectors independent of the non virtual flags. On the highly detailed track map above, the light grey lines indicate the beginning and end points of the light panel sectors. The 4th flagger on a stand would normally be a chief/dep. chief post marshal, acting as sort of an observational role, usually using the backup comms which is normally specifically for organizing recovery efforts of stricken cars. This only usually happens if we're completely flush with marshals, so needless to say it happens pretty rarely. Normally when I run a corner, I just go on comms and get a very senior incident marshal to use the backup comms to co-ordinate recovery stuff, which is good because sometimes the actual stand can be far away from where incidents are. The incident marshals are the folks you see going out and doing cool stuff. In Montreal, these are in the same group as the Flag and Comms guys, but the vehicle recovery marshals are usually part of a different group, although we do help each other out and work with each other all the time. At many other Grand Prix, they're all part of the same team - this again is dependent on the organizer. Essentially it all functions in the same way. They have two responsibilities; get to the driver and make sure they're ok, and if the driver is out of the car, get the car clear of the track and behind a barrier. The separation in Montreal is as easy as that. We go for the driver and make sure that they're alright, and the vehicle guys go after the car. We also do the stuff like grabbing front wings off hot tracks in gaps of traffic and fun stuff like that! We also do the non fun stuff like sweeping absorbent into asphalt to clean up oil spills. Or shoveling water, as we did in 2011. Flags and Lights This is probably the part that most people understand pretty good. It's always the bit you see on TV when there's an incident, and it's always the thing people complain about when they think it goes wrong. Also the light panels, which are kinda weird and took me a bit to sort out too. Every flag we have is represented on the light panel, but we only control a few of them. I'm gonna go through each flag and it's use (and who decides to throw it!) and then talk about what makes the light panel so special and awesome. The flags! All flags are waved in FIA rules at all times with no exceptions, except the Debris flag. And the blue flag, that's an exception too. But everything else is waved! All the lights... blink? Anyways... Single Waved Yellow - The most common flag status you'll see! This status is for a vehicle off track that is doing something that is not racing. The flag is displayed if there is a vehicle stopped or spinning in your sector of the track. If you scroll back up and look at the track map thing, for any incident between the first two red lines, the first station will be displaying a Single Waved Yellow. Drivers are supposed to not pass and reduce speed sorta (we all know how well that's policed, but hey...) from when they PASS the flag, not from when they first see the flag. This is an important distinction that a lot of people get. The flag displayed at a station tells you what you should be doing as you pass that imaginary line. Double Waved Yellow - Another rather common sight. Functionally, it's identical to the Single waved yellow, but it's reserved for incidents that are either on track, or has marshals recovering a vehicle. If someone has just spun out, it's a SWY. If they spin out, whack a barrier and bend their car so much that it needs to be hauled off, then it's a DWY. Who decides to throw a yellow? Whoever is on yellow for that corner! The quicker you get that flag out, the better. I've seen some marshals get the flag waving before the driver even seemed to know they were going to spin - we get pretty drat good at knowing when someone's going to fly off the side of the track. Again, with both types of yellow flag, as soon as the incident is clear (car rejoined/behind a barrier) we go to no flags ASAP. A note about yellows that happen fairly frequently in F1 and other FIA level things - sometimes, upon race control's decision (this can either be pre-arranged at the morning meeting, or situationally dependant) the yellow status may be moved ahead by a station or two. Referring to that track picture again, say we have a multi car accident just past station 3. Station 3 is now DWY (marshals on scene, lets say a car is partially on the track surface), Control will probably request station 2 go DWY as well. Technically, station 2's sector is clear, but by upgrading their status it gives the drivers more time to react to seeing the flags before they're on the incident, hopefully giving them a bit more time to back off. This is very common and a pretty good practice, especially at street circuits where there's lots of blind corners. Green Flag - displayed at the station for the sector after an incident... That's pretty much it. Also, we wave it when the SC comes in until Control tells us to stop. Cars can go back to regularly scheduled programming after passing this flag Red Flag - This is only really used in practice or qualifying sessions for incidents that need a bit of help to get recovered that would comprimize the safety of the event. They still use it in race conditions, but it's been a LONG time since it's been used for anything other than a crap load of rain. It usually means something big and very bad if it's during a race and it's not because of the weather. The decision to throw the red (as well as the SC and i'm assuming the VSC) belongs soely to the Clerk of the Course, which would be Charlie Whiting. When the call comes over the radio for a Red (I'd say 90% of the marshaling world, you are NOT allowed to say red on the radio to prevent possible confusion), it's usually quite an exciting process. Control will come on and say something along the lines of "Red Flag, Red Flag, Red Flag, all stations conformation starting with one" whereby each comms marshal will check in VERY quickly to confirm the red is out. After that, recovery processes start. At big events like F1, the recovery process is usually getting co-ordinated on a different comms channel/freq. while we're doing that process, but it never takes very long. The Medical car may roll, upon Control's say-so. In Montreal, we have 22 stations, and we can do a red flag confirmation in like 30 seconds, which is pretty alright. Debris/Surface/Bacon and Eggs/The stripey one - This is for anything on the track that's not supposed to be there. Can be oil, CF bits, ballast, dead birds/marmots/squirrels/etc, beer cans (Indy 2005!), ketchup packets, destroyed brake markers, massive puddles, rocks, mud, ya get the idea. We don't wave this flag because it's red and yellow, so if we wave it, drivers might get all confused. Again, this works off the sector idea - if a chunk of debris is 5 feet ahead of your stand, you can call it in, but the station prior to you is going to display the debris flag. If it's something we can actually remove, like a piece of wing or something, and it's not in a ridiculously dangerous place, we get to wait for a gap in traffic and run onto a live race track and grab it. That's probably one of the most intense things I've ever done. Here is a video of some folks I know in Singapore a few years back doing this. White flag - This is used for slow moving vehicles, including service vehicles. It works in a similar way to the yellow - once the slow vehicle is in your sector, you start waving until it leaves your sector. This flag is used from when the track is "closed" in the morning to when it is "open" at the end of the day. There can be buses, fire trucks, tow trucks, AMG med cars, FIA track inspections, guys on scooters doing inspections and so on. So even in between sessions, it's important to be on the white flag - if some guys are swapping out radios at a station on the exit of a blind corner, and that AMG CL whatever is pounding around to wherever it needs to go, the white flag helps everyone out. Also sometimes used when race cars get broken - usually under 2/3rds pace, or if it's obviously going slowly (flat tire). Blue flags - This is the HARDEST thing to get a grip of when you're starting out as a flagger, and I will be honest here... I'm really not very great at this. It's one of the big things I've been trying to work on over the last few years. I'm mostly a comms or incident guy... but it's still lots of fun to blue flag! The blue flag is information only, not a command like the yellows or red and all that. We use it to tell slower drivers that are getting lapped that there is a car behind them - only for lapped traffic, never for position. We do not get ANY help from race control, the lights are not controlled by the tower, they're controlled by us on the side of the track! It's tricky for two reasons - you don't really know what's going to come at you; that car you thought was going to pass the lapped car is still behind or vice versa. It requires a LOT of concentration, and some people are just better at understanding gaps between traffic and how they change and what it's going to mean. The hairpin in Montreal is Very hard because the approach speed is getting on 300km/h and the way the track curves, there's a chain link fence, a wall and about 2-3 sections of grandstands that prevent you from seeing much of the track. By the time they've gotten to you and you've realized who is where, the drivers aren't looking anywhere near you anymore! (protip: you can kinda cheat off 9B, if you're on the ball) The harder part to understand about the blue flag that makes it tricky (this is where i really suck) is knowing what part of the turn the car must be in so the driver can see the flag the easiest. This flag works the opposite of all the other ones (ie, yellows come into effect when they pass it directly) and it's all about trying to convey information to a driver, so you're trying to hit them with it when they're looking right at you. If you start waving the blue as soon as the car comes into view, that may be totally ineffective depending on the corner. Likewise, you can't wave it when they're right at your station because they are looking very far away from you more often than not. Lots of people do the blue flags a bit differently - what I've always been taught is that you flash a quick steady blue to someone that might get passed in 3-4 corners, give them a big shake of the blue (rocking it side to side sorta thing) if they're gonna get passed sooner than that, and start waving it if the faster car is pulling out to pass, or is side by side. Where it gets fun is if you have a chain of multiple cars who all need different degrees of blue flag! It's lots of fun because you really have to focus on what's going on in the race to be proficient at it. Sometimes when you're on yellow, it can get a bit dull... it happens... but blue flagging is always a pretty good time. Light Panels The biggest advantage with these guys is the fact that you can pretty much put them anywhere. For placing it at the best line of sight for blue flags, or whatever else you desire, it's great. As I said before, they operate independently of the flagging stations, with their own sectors, which can make them sorta confusing. The drivers treat them equally though, so whether you pass a yellow light or a flag first, as soon as you pass it, you're in that no passing zone - likewise when you come upon a green flag or light. Because you can put them anywhere, they're almost never right at a stand, so there might be a situation where there is a car between the light panel and the stand. If the light is before the stand, the light will be yellow and the stand will be green! Based on the whole sector thing, that is exactly how it should be. Also, the controller looks like it's off an old arcade machine or something, it's pretty nifty. Anyways, I hope that someone found that kinda useful... There's a few other things I didn't talk about, like intervention. I know how we USED to do it, but I don't know if that's changed because of what happened in Suzuka last year. I can give you all of the inside info after about June or so, when I'm back from Montreal. Again, this is just the very most basic stuff when it comes to marshaling - none of it is very complicated, it's just following specific procedures. The biggest thing to get used to is having to stay calm when some really crazy things are happening all around you. I remember the first time I had an incident of note (at a club event mind you) when I was on the comms... it was verrrrrry excited, which isn't good! After time, you do actually get used to seeing cars and motorbikes crash and break and catch fire, and you just dive right in and take care of what you're responsible for! Finally, I would recommend to ANYONE that is interested in motorsports to think about getting involved in your local club marshaling scene! It's a shitload of fun and you get to do some really cool stuff and meet some truly awesome people! My first year on Montreal, I was on a very experienced crew of Americans with loads of F1, CART, IMSA (the OLD IMSA), ALMS experience. In the 4 days from when I first met them, to the end of the weekend, It felt like I had been on their crew for years. This marshaling thing is filled with lots of really awesome people! When I started flagging, it was just an excuse to go hang out at a racetrack and camp out and all that. I never had any intention of going to an F1 event, now I'm running corners at F1 races and running races at my home track. It's a great gig! Carbonate fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Mar 14, 2015 |
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Mar 14, 2015 16:46
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Bottas has broken himself and may not race. There's your 17 starters!
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Mar 14, 2015 16:55
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Tsaedje posted:Bottas has broken himself and may not race. There's your 17 starters! Did he die from the shame of being beaten by Felipe Massa?
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Mar 14, 2015 17:01
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El Hefe posted:Did he die from the shame of being beaten by Felipe Massa? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/31886578 He knackered his back in Q2, so pre-Massa shaming
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Mar 14, 2015 17:04
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I had a dream Massa hosed off and Ricciardo took his spot winning the 2016 drivers championship.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:08
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Dr Helmut Marko told the Austrian press Renault is in talks to increase cooperation with Toro Rosso, including the possibility of the outright purchase of the team.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:08
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That was a proper interesting post Carbonate, thanks!
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Mar 14, 2015 17:09
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Riso posted:Dr Helmut Marko told the Austrian press Renault is in talks to increase cooperation with Toro Rosso, including the possibility of the outright purchase of the team. Have they considered buying Lotus?
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Mar 14, 2015 17:09
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Tsaedje posted:Have they considered buying Lotus? To quote Dr Helmut Marko: "We're convinced Toro Rosso is the best bride among the available teams."
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Mar 14, 2015 17:11
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They just want the blood of the young.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:13
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I wonder if Renault knows the only reason Toro Rosso somewhat works is because they are really short on Italians.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:16
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Carbonate posted:Marshal Stuff Good stuff!
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Mar 14, 2015 17:24
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1500quidporsche posted:Certainly not but it is everyone else's fault for dropping the ball so early. Is it their fault they're up against the most #blessed driver in F1 history?
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Mar 14, 2015 17:27
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Riso posted:Dr Helmut Marko told the Austrian press Renault is in talks to increase cooperation with Toro Rosso, including the possibility of the outright purchase of the team. It looks like a better prospect then buying Red Bull at the moment.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:28
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1500quidporsche posted:It looks like a better prospect then buying Red Bull at the moment. Red Bull Racing is not available for sale.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:34
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I told myself after 2013 that McLaren were over that, and 2014 would be different. I told myself the same thing at the end of last season. And now this. gently caress sake guys.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:39
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Riso posted:Red Bull Racing is not available for sale. Nobody would buy it if it was after this weekend.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:44
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It's too bad how tangled everything is. I like Jenson and Fernando so I want them to win but I hate Ron so I want them to lose. I like Daniel (not Daniil) so I want him to win but I hate RedBull so I want them to lose. I like Mercedes  so I want them to win but Lewis is such a ball bag and Nico is so boring so I want them to lose. The only one that's not confusing is Williams because Claire is lovely and Felipe is lovely and Butt rear end seems to drive ok. Go wheelchair team go.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:49
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I knew McLaren would be bad but Jesus Christ that was just embarrassing. When it cut to their garage as Q1 ended it looked like a funeral home.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:52
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I bet Manor could beat Mclaren, both in qualifying and the race.
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Mar 14, 2015 17:53
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Lugaloco posted:When it cut to their garage as Q1 ended it looked like a funeral home. Something something Alonso
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Mar 14, 2015 17:54
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Tsaedje posted:Bottas has broken himself and may not race. There's your 17 starters! Does this mean Suzie Wolff might race? Because that would be funny / interesting
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Mar 14, 2015 17:58
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Rhopunzel posted:how has honda made such a bad engine Not quite in the same league (even given that Honda are doing ok against last year's efforts, at least), but how on earth did Renault work hard all year to make an actively worse engine
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Mar 14, 2015 18:00
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poty posted:Does this mean Suzie Wolff might race? Because that would be funny / interesting Does she even qualify for a super license?
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Mar 14, 2015 18:01
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gret posted:Does she even qualify for a super license? Not under the new system, as her last competitive drive (3 years) ago was 22nd in DTM, which doesn't even get you points if you win it.
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Mar 14, 2015 18:04
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I think Honda should seriously consider withdrawing. I mean I knew they would be last but 5 seconds is really, really unacceptable.
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Mar 14, 2015 18:17
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