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Well, this is also an industry where you can be super-late with something, and just say "I was sick" and all the complaints instantly turn into sympathy and forgiveness. It's also one where people can take 5+ figures of other people's money, not produce anything, and have people actually defend them. So it's not like most people seem to care about professionalism on either side of the fence.
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Mar 23, 2015 03:40
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FMguru posted:I'm pretty sure that man is our very own forums poster Serf. From a few pages back, but yeah, that was me. I bought The Strange in a DTRPG sale a while back and never got around to reading it. When this controversy came up I dug it out and decided to have a look for myself. I was appalled by the content and decided to post it for people to see. It's a pretty lovely game overall, using the exceptionally lovely Cypher system they also used in Numenera, which is basically just a ripoff of d20. I thought I could salvage it for campaign material and run it in Fate/FAE but now I really just wish I'd never bought the drat thing. Also, as a note, the term "erasure" in this context is referring to the millions of people who were not a part of the Plains cultures, which are the ones Cordell is explicitly referencing. By making the Thunder Plains the "Native American" world, you essentially get rid of all the dozens of other cultural groups that are also Native Americans but are not depicted (poorly) in the Thunder Plains. "Erasure" isn't just a Tumblr thing, it was covered pretty extensively in my social science courses in college.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:28
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm starting to think that Pelgrane Press is just great at this in general: quote:You Are Probably Either a Man or a Woman This is actually a pretty excellent way to get through those impenetrable GM/player paragraphs without having to resort to hypothetical names which always sound a little awkward.
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Mar 23, 2015 18:12
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The funny thing is that this is in spite of the fact that the source material for that game is Jack Vance books written mostly in the 60s and 70s, so pretty sexist as such things go. (Vance assumes that in a far-future space opera setting, people will still be using paper money, and women will still be mostly relegated to jobs like secretary, nurse, and damsel-in-distress.)
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Mar 23, 2015 18:19
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea basically the rule is 'if the thing you're overcoming is how stupid and lovely society is by proving how wrong they are, you're in the clear.' Making the thing you're 'overcoming' is 'no see because you literally are inferior to me, it's part of the laws of nature here' is dumb because what's she supposed to do then, show that hey sometimes a buff lady can be kinda the same as a dude. The weird thing is, of all settings, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's Bretonnia did this surprisingly well. They have a big sidebar at the beginning of the book saying 'There's a lot of gender stuff in this setting but it's not nearly as important as knights and peasants and poo poo, so cut it all out if it makes people at the table uncomfortable or doesn't fit' and then if you do keep it, lady knights don't need to roll to keep it secret that they're women and a running joke in the book is that a huge portion of the knights of Bretonnia are women in disguise. Gender-bending and cross-dressing is everywhere in the book to make fun of the fact that the Brets see gender as trappings and social function; they see someone in armor on a horse, they assume it's a guy and don't look any deeper. The example PC Knight is a woman in disguise. The punishment for being discovered is being sent on an adventure to do more rad things, and the general focus on the plot point is entirely that there's no basis in reality for their gender discrimination. Warhammer is not where I would ever have expected to find something done like that and it's why I love the Bret book for 2e.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:30
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Yea I love Warhammer Fantasy RPG and it's Bretonnia book was a great way to do knights of the round table crossed with french middle ages crossed with 'gently caress it we're here to stab Orcs in the face right?' I loved the 'punishmet' for being a lady knight was a quest, like straight up just 'ok you've shamed yourself by impersonating a man and doing cool knight poo poo...go do more cool knight poo poo and hunt down Skaven and Orcs and poo poo...you monster.'
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Mar 23, 2015 19:37
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The weirdest thing about Varg's RPG is that he's apparently into D&D 3. I would've pegged him as the groggiest AD&D player.
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Mar 24, 2015 05:30
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:TG is the only industry where you can associate with a neo-Nazi convicted murderer and still have a career. Varg was sentenced to 21 years in prison, the same amount as Anders Breivig, and Varg's mother and the neo-Nazis he was associated with had an actual plot to break him out of prison. He hasn't changed much either if the news stories in the last couple of years are true too. Just a note on this: Vikernes got the same jail sentence as Anders Breivik because 21 years is the maximum sentence that can be given under the Norwegian penal code. So it's not that Vikernes is as bad as Breivik, it's that Breivik couldn't be punished more.
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Mar 24, 2015 13:58
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You know there are some people you just need to kill. Normally I'm okay with saying the death penalty is bad because you can never be sure of the integrity of the legal system, but with Breivig it's pretty cut and dry.
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Mar 24, 2015 14:50
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Jedit posted:Just a note on this: Vikernes got the same jail sentence as Anders Breivik because 21 years is the maximum sentence that can be given under the Norwegian penal code. So it's not that Vikernes is as bad as Breivik, it's that Breivik couldn't be punished more. Yeah, I was in no way meaning to imply that Vikernes was the same as Breivik in terms of the crimes they committed. I was more going towards the Norwegian courts feeling that Vikernes was so guilty, Vikernes claims his brutal murder was in self defense, that he was given the maximum sentence possible. Pope Guilty posted:The weirdest thing about Varg's RPG is that he's apparently into D&D 3. I would've pegged him as the groggiest AD&D player. He supposedly had a bunch of AD&D art up in his jail cell but then again he went to jail in 1994.
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Mar 24, 2015 15:20
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Jedit posted:Just a note on this: Vikernes got the same jail sentence as Anders Breivik because 21 years is the maximum sentence that can be given under the Norwegian penal code. So it's not that Vikernes is as bad as Breivik, it's that Breivik couldn't be punished more. Welp, if I ever want to kill a man to watch him die I am sure as poo poo not doing it in Reno.
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Mar 24, 2015 15:29
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Have there been any notable examples, good or bad, of games including sexism targeting men? Like, I don't know, trying to treat drow seriously? Basically, anything but a token distant Amazon nation? As an unrelated aside, it's kinda hilarious when a game restricts a class or school of magic to female characters for fluff reasons and ur-nerds throw shitfits about why they can't play a special snowflake male counterpart.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:14
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Reign has the thing where men can't ride horses into combat.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:17
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PresidentBeard posted:Reign has the thing where men can't ride horses into combat. No, Reign has a thing where some of the cultures in the setting have a taboo against men not riding side-saddle.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:24
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In Reign, there's a widespread belief, in-setting, that riding a horse normally makes a man impotent. Because of this, men ride sidesaddle, and the vast majority of the knights in the setting are female or eunuchs. A bunch of people absolutely flipped their poo poo over it.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:27
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Tulul posted:In Reign, there's a widespread belief, in-setting, that riding a horse normally makes a man impotent. Because of this, men ride sidesaddle, and the vast majority of the knights in the setting are female or eunuchs. that rules
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Mar 24, 2015 17:29
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I think most of the cultures had that taboo, actually. The "common wisdom" was that if men didn't ride side-saddle, they'd become impotent. People flipped their poo poo over that. e: the best simulposting ever
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Mar 24, 2015 17:30
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Evil Mastermind posted:I think most of the cultures had that taboo, actually. The "common wisdom" was that if men didn't ride side-saddle, they'd become impotent. As I recall, riding sidesaddle actually did make men impotent, though the book noted that it might be a psychosomatic thing. Either way, the people flipping their poo poo about it were hilarious and sad.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:32
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Lemon Curdistan posted:No, Reign has a thing where some of the cultures in the setting have a taboo against men not riding side-saddle. Yeah, it isn't really societal sexism, but rather a superstition thrown in to explain women's more pronounced role in the societies of Heluso & Milonda. I actually love the trollish aspect of that idea: there's nothing really stopping you you from riding astride other than your so very important pretend man having a flaccid dick. And if you ferociously argue that so very important detail for being bullshit, it's nuh-uh, totally scientifical because your pretend man believes so strongly he'll have a flaccid dick. [edit] Man, I'm a slow poster.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:34
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Lemon Curdistan posted:No, Reign has a thing where some of the cultures in the setting have a taboo against men not riding side-saddle. Yeah sorry simplified it. Specifically I was using it as an example of male-targeted sexism. That isn't a knock against Reign though as it is a good game, and little cultural things like that make it interesting.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:37
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Lichtenstein posted:Yeah, it isn't really societal sexism, but rather a superstition thrown in to explain women's more pronounced role in the societies of Heluso & Milonda. I actually love the trollish aspect of that idea: there's nothing really stopping you you from riding astride other than your so very important pretend man having a flaccid dick. And if you ferociously argue that so very important detail for being bullshit, it's nuh-uh, totally scientifical because your pretend man believes so strongly he'll have a flaccid dick. From 2009: quote:It bugs him because riding side saddle is implicitly an old-fashioned feminine way to ride. It was silly when they made women do it and I'm sure in his mind it's even more silly to make a man do it. And it's probably emasculating in his mind.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:37
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Actually I would not be surprised if spending a ton of time riding a horse did, irl, cause reproductive issues in men, especially in places that didn't use saddles.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:40
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Based on first hand accounts from ranch hands, it doesn't cause impotence but it does cause sterility.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:50
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For those not familiar with Reign, bear in mind we are talking about a world where the two continents are two giants lying side by side in the ocean. His beard is a forest of giant trees. The Sunless Plains are in perpetual darkness because they are literally the armpit of the world. The sun literally rises and sets. And people flipped their poo poo about not being able to play a paladin because this world has different 
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Mar 24, 2015 18:00
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This is a general issue I have noticed, where in gamers want to play a, in some cases a very very, specific type of character, irrespective of weather it fits, thematically or mechanically, a given game. The Shadowrun thread was talking about this in the last few pages and I made some comments about Steve, this guy I used to game with whom just loving had to be a vampire type thing in every game we played and would pout when we refused him.
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Mar 24, 2015 18:09
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Halloween Jack posted:For those not familiar with Reign, bear in mind we are talking about a world where the two continents are two giants lying side by side in the ocean. His beard is a forest of giant trees. The Sunless Plains are in perpetual darkness because they are literally the armpit of the world. The sun literally rises and sets. I wouldn't want to live on a mountain in that world.
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Mar 24, 2015 18:46
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If you climb to the top of the right mountain you can make a deal with sun-spirits to possess you and learning the -only magical healing available-. But the sun spirit might be a dick who you don't get along with and also you might go blind.
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Mar 24, 2015 19:24
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Hey, there are lots of fun places with mountains on Heluso and Milonda! Like the Maemeck Matriarchy, uh, and the Truil Wastes, and...you know what, nevermind.
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Mar 24, 2015 19:27
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Lemon Curdistan posted:No, Reign has a thing where some of the cultures in the setting have a taboo against men not riding side-saddle. All of the cultures have a taboo, and it's because it's true. That didn't stop someone in the game I ran from doing it anyway, because the Muscle Wizardry spell school requires you to be able to ride horses. He thought about it, bit the bullet, became a teleporting murder badass with super strength and whenever anyone questioned him about it he was like "I really love my country." I like it because it's different and restricting in a way that breeds cool roleplaying scenarios rather than just being lovely. It should be noted that in this setting where there is widespread gender equality (except for in the Matriarchy, where men are second class citizens because their book of laws says so. So are teachers, though, so that gives you some idea of how seriously you're supposed to take them) the horseriding thing meaning that any courier or cavalryman pretty much needing to be a woman is only one reason given for why it is a thing. The others include "there's magic that lets you spit lightning out of your mouth. Being physically stronger and larger don't mean poo poo" and "The Empire has been successfully ruled by exclusively female leaders for centuries. Women have nothing to prove regarding their competence." Reign's good y'all. Play it.
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Mar 24, 2015 20:06
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Lichtenstein posted:Have there been any notable examples, good or bad, of games including sexism targeting men? Like, I don't know, trying to treat drow seriously? Basically, anything but a token distant Amazon nation? Yeah, I dunno. People are pretty sensitive about this. For a contest a while back I made a brief setting description where humanity was forced underground and led raids against the aliens who had taken over the surface. In that society, it was commonly accepted that while men could go on such raids, women were generally more suited to it and it was considered a brave thing for a woman to choose while being a strange thing for a man to choose. Essentially it was the way society broadly looks at women in the military today, but gender-flipped. The person judging the contest gave only the cryptic comment "Don't do this," and then didn't respond to my PM asking what in particular I did wrong. So I was left not knowing if I'd actually written something legit offensive (which is certainly possible, even though I was trying not to be offensive), or if they were against addressing political/social concerns in gaming general, or if they were against feminism in gaming specifically. I mean, it's hard to write this stuff without offending somebody. Under the Skin is a movie that tries very clearly to put men in the position of rape victims, using Scarlett Johansson's nudity to bring in male audiences and then making them aware of how it would feel to know that there are predators out there trying to hunt you for your body. But most reviews I found don't even mention rape, despite the movie being 100% about rape, and blatantly so. And I even found a review saying that the movie was sexist and bad because in the end Scarlett Johansson's alien rapist character becomes a victim. I mean, I think that reviewer missed the point, but it's gotta be tough for a filmmaker to try to make a feminist film and then find other feminists online writing polemics about how sexist your film is. If you try to write something that really strongly challenges sexism, you're likely to be called sexist. Not by everybody, but by some people, including some other feminists who might disagree with your particular take. Not to mention all the hate you might receive from anti-feminist cretins. It is certainly easier and safer to merely espouse the gentle and reassuring messages that men and women are equal and surely this whole sexism thing will be behind us soon.
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Mar 24, 2015 20:10
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Under the Skin was also really over the top artsy. The rape analogy was harmed by her victims being violated in an overly surreal and quite frankly comical way.
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Mar 24, 2015 20:18
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GenCon has released a letter/statement/thingy in regards to Indiana Governor Mike Pence's support of SB101, a.k.a. the "legal discrimination against them homos" bill. Short form: GenCon LLC points out that they host one of the state's largest conventions, that they bring in people from around the world and don't give a gently caress about anyone's orientation/gender/beliefs/whatever, and that if he signs the bill into law they'll take their $50 million worth of economy that normal goes into the city around contime and go someplace that doesn't discriminate and call it "freedom of religion".
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Mar 24, 2015 21:59
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bunnielab posted:This is a general issue I have noticed, where in gamers want to play a, in some cases a very very, specific type of character, irrespective of weather it fits, thematically or mechanically, a given game. You played Shadowrun with Ferrinus?! Evil Mastermind posted:GenCon has released a letter/statement/thingy in regards to Indiana Governor Mike Pence's support of SB101, a.k.a. the "legal discrimination against them homos" bill. drat this is pretty ballsy, good on GenCon.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:30
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Evil Mastermind posted:GenCon has released a letter/statement/thingy in regards to Indiana Governor Mike Pence's support of SB101, a.k.a. the "legal discrimination against them homos" bill. gently caress. Yes.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:38
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Lichtenstein posted:As an unrelated aside, it's kinda hilarious when a game restricts a class or school of magic to female characters for fluff reasons and ur-nerds throw shitfits about why they can't play a special snowflake male counterpart. Vampire has the Daughters of Cacophony, an all-female bloodline. People whined about it and came up with the name "Sons of Discord" for male members, so eventually one of the Revised books mentioned that the Daughters had recently murdered all non-female members of the bloodline.. And oh, the crying...
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Mar 24, 2015 22:48
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Evil Mastermind posted:GenCon has released a letter/statement/thingy in regards to Indiana Governor Mike Pence's support of SB101, a.k.a. the "legal discrimination against them homos" bill. Hell yes. Hit 'em in the wallet, as appeals to humanity only work when the enemy has a conscience. Shame it still probably won't have any effect.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:51
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Well, it'll give GenCon a chance to pick a new venue, at least.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:53
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Evil Mastermind posted:GenCon has released a letter/statement/thingy in regards to Indiana Governor Mike Pence's support of SB101, a.k.a. the "legal discrimination against them homos" bill. For all the talk of the shittiness in this hobby and industry, it's really great seeing one of the big movers and shakers make a stand like this once in a while. Very much appreciated.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:00
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A) I hope the bill fails to pass whether due to pressure like this or any other reason. B) If they do leave Indianapolis there's a chance the new venue would be walking distance from my apartment, so that would be cool.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:20
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Ratpick posted:For all the talk of the shittiness in this hobby and industry, it's really great seeing one of the big movers and shakers make a stand like this once in a while. Very much appreciated. I think it's easy to notice the poo poo when we're looking for it. Everyone barring 2-3 people I've ever played games with - board, rpg, or otherwise - have all been at the very least milquetoast social liberals, and in a few cases as politically left as some radical socialists. My experiences working with people in the industry have been similar (though admittedly limited to ~12-15 people). It's always struck me as weird when this thread seems to think the traditional gaming industry is the dregs of society; Have any of you ever looked at poo poo like the political opinions and practices of professional sports executives or managers? That's not even touching obvious stuff like right wing political pundits. I just don't see it as any worse than lots of other industries, if not slightly more public when it is vile since trad game companies can rarely afford PR people to filter their responses for obvious racism.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:26
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