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Clawshrimpy posted:It might be acceptable if we're talking about pets, but we're talking about human beings here. Dying ones, anyway, ones that can not be saved, only made comfortable at the expensive of other, much more numerous, living human beings that can be saved. Tough decisions are part of growing up.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:17
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And a human being that could have potentially got better could easily die because they wasted it on a doomed patient, i mean i generally consider Gain a dick but being pragmatic is absolutely the best way to handle this situation.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:20
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Clawshrimpy posted:It might be acceptable if we're talking about pets, but we're talking about human beings here. In ideal circumstances, yes. But again, the Exodus is not an ideal situation like how we've been pointing out. The possibility of ugly situations with no perfect solution -all too common in real life- is looming over them and Gain's willing to make the tough call if no better solution is present (not that he isn't taking steps so there IS a better solution). It's okay that the issue is uncomfortable, it SHOULD be uncomfortable to deal with because it's life and death we're talking about here and the characters certainly aren't treating this like a trivial matter.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:22
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Clever Spambot posted:And a human being that could have potentially got better could easily die because they wasted it on a doomed patient, i mean i generally consider Gain a dick but being pragmatic is absolutely the best way to handle this situation. Saving someone closer to death is more gooder, Spambot. Idiot. We'll see who has more karma in space heaven.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:26
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tsob posted:As has been pointed out before there is a vast difference between eugenics and euthanasia. Gain was suggesting euthanasia, presumably on those who were going to die regardless, not eugenics. This is essentially the same thing as happened recently with you completely misunderstanding what transhumanism is and insisting that you are right. But after goading Gainer into that fight to teach him a lesson and after acting like an rear end in a top hat, him actually saving someone's life doesn't really do much to make him look like less of a jackass in the end. To answer your question though, the right thing to do is obvious, try to save everyone. if you don't have enough medicine to go around, do research, try to develop alternatives, give everyone a chance. don't use the medicine you have for mercy killings Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 01:27
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Clawshrimpy posted:Sure, Gain manages to turn around what he did in the previous episode, it's just Sara had to really bug him about it and thought that it was impossible to save that boy in the first place until Sara went "come on dude we've got some in a warehouse if we'd just go across a few units." All of which has zero relevance to what I asked. I never said that Gain isn't an rear end in a top hat, only that he isn't a horrible person simply for giving an answer in a lovely situation that probably has no good answers. You've also yet to answer the question. If you can't answer it, then just admit you can't answer it. If you can't answer it however, then I'd like you to think about what that means - because the only real logical conclusion is that there is no good answer. And that means that no matter what choice someone put in that situation makes they're probably not doing it because they're horrible people, but because it's just a horrible situation. And then maybe you should immediately jumping to the conclusion that every character who does something you consider mean is a horrible person, because there's usually a reason similar to the above why they're doing something horrible.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:36
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Clawshrimpy posted:Sure, Gain manages to turn around what he did in the previous episode, it's just Sara had to really bug him about it and thought that it was impossible to save that boy in the first place until Sara went "come on dude we've got some in a warehouse if we'd just go across a few units." Gain thought it was impossible because he didn't know about the drugs in the hidden warehouse in the first place. He's telling the doctor he already gave him all the medicine he had the day before when Sara interrupts him. And Sara doesn't have to convince him to go get them, she has to tell them there is a chance they even exist. He may be a jerk, but he is not a psychic jerk.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:38
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tsob posted:All of which has zero relevance to what I asked. I never said that Gain isn't an rear end in a top hat, only that he isn't a horrible person simply for giving an answer in a lovely situation that probably has no good answers. You've also yet to answer the question. If you can't answer it, then just admit you can't answer it. If you can't answer it however, then I'd like you to think about what that means - because the only real logical conclusion is that there is no good answer. And that means that no matter what choice someone put in that situation makes they're probably not doing it because they're horrible people, but because it's just a horrible situation. quote:To answer your question though, the right thing to do is obvious, try to save everyone. if you don't have enough medicine to go around, do research, try to develop alternatives, give everyone a chance. don't use the medicine you have for mercy killings
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Mar 25, 2015 02:20
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Forgive me for not seeing the answer you edited in 10 minutes after I made my post. The answer, by the way, isn't at all obvious, because it's just you side-stepping the issue and refusing to answer it - replacing the words "magic wand" with "research". Research takes time. And resources. During which, people will be suffering, dying and during which you'll need to manage resources to ensure you help as many people as possible. So no, that's no answer at all. Even assuming you could do worthwhile research in such conditions, by no means a certainty, what are you going to do in the immediate about those people that are dying and who research hasn't come up with a cure for? Do you leave them to die in pain while risking running out of resources, euthanize them to save them pain and you resources or come up with some other plan that can help them in the immediate future? tsob fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 02:28
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except quietly protesting Exodus is actually a better solution than "taking charge". Because if he did that, we'd get how he reacted in Episode 2 again. Being upset and wanting to avoid pro-Exodus people is a completely reasonable since he is upset or depressed for a very valid reason. Gainer isn't quietly protesting Exodus though, he straight up shut himself away for a month and still makes his bad attitude obvious to everybody involved in Exodus. It's a reasonable reaction, and I don't think less of him for it, but the point is that it's not healthy or sustainable. Gain uses the boxing match to shake Gainer up because he's stagnating in depression and putting his negativity on others. He needs to find a way to come to terms with his situation or take action to change it (e.g. leaving like you mention), rather than passively spiraling into further depression and anger.
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Mar 25, 2015 02:43
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The way you're answering does explain a lot to me, admittedly. You're immediately thinking of what you consider "Right" for the situation, which is perfectly fine to do. However, at the same time everything that does not fit into your definition as such, is immediately wrong, thus "Villainous" regardless of circumstance. Because you do not agree with it, you paint all sides "Black", ignoring all other information presented to you and points brought up. Am I correct in assuming this much? Again it is perfectly reasonable to hate the worst possible scenario, but do bear in mind the route where everyone survives is not always the attainable. It also does not make people evil for being prepared to do the worst when they literally do not have an option.
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Mar 25, 2015 02:45
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tsob posted:Forgive me for not seeing the answer you edited in 10 minutes after I made my post. The answer, by the way, isn't at all obvious, because it's just you side-stepping the issue and refusing to answer it - replacing the words "magic wand" with "research". Research takes time. And resources. During which, people will be suffering, dying and during which you'll need to manage resources to ensure you help as many people as possible. But the way you're making it sound is there are no "good" options and any solution involves having to preform evil no matter what. I don't believe in that. I do not believe in the no-win scenario.
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Mar 25, 2015 02:49
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Clawshrimpy posted:But the way you're making it sound is there are no "good" options and any solution involves having to preform evil no matter what. Tough poo poo, it is literally a thing that exists.
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Mar 25, 2015 02:50
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Clawshrimpy posted:But the way you're making it sound is there are no "good" options and any solution involves having to preform evil no matter what. Then tell me what the win is, keeping in mind it has to be something that is doable in the immediate future, which research doesn't fall under. If you can't, then yes, that is what we call a no-win situation. Which life is full of, and sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la I can't hear you" won't make them go away, which is essentially what you're saying you want to do. Sometimes people have to do things that they would normally never do. You can call them evil if you want, but they exist all the same. This is also, by the way, the reason that Tomino, and other creators like him, made shows like Gundam in the first place - to make kids aware that life isn't all magical adventures with clean cut solutions, and that sometimes life is just plain poo poo. It's not a nice thing, but it is a thing that kids have to learn eventually regardless, because there's very few people who can sail through life without having to confront difficult choices at some point or another. You label the characters monsters, but the reality (such as it were), is that most of the characters in those works are simply people in difficult situations trying to make the best of them. tsob fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 02:56
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Clawshrimpy posted:But the way you're making it sound is there are no "good" options and any solution involves having to preform evil no matter what. A lot of people in the world have to make decisions like that on a regular basis. It sucks, but that's reality for you. It doesn't make them evil.
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Mar 25, 2015 02:56
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If a doctor has to choose between two dying patients when he only has the time and/or resources to save just one, would you call him evil for making that choice? Would you rather he just walk away from the situation and do nothing?
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Mar 25, 2015 02:59
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Organ transplants from dying patients
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Mar 25, 2015 03:02
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Clawshrimpy posted:But the way you're making it sound is there are no "good" options and any solution involves having to preform evil no matter what. Are you familiar with the concept of triage?
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Mar 25, 2015 03:04
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For personal reasons I find it interesting when someone calls a character out for being inconsistent, because that has two connotations and I'd like to know which one you mean. You suggested that Gainer is inconsistent between episodes. Removing yourself from the equation (i.e. don't ask: "What would I do if I were Gainer") do you think Gainer is an inconsistently written character or do you believe Gainer is being portrayed as an inconsistent individual? To elaborate: If Gainer is inconsistently written it means his character either hasn't been fully thought out (yet) or whose motivation changes from episode to episode or even during the episode completely at random depending on who's writing him. Examples of this would be Captain Janeway from Star Trek Voyager, Fezarl Ezelcant and Zeheart "I know the names of all my soldiers and would never send them to die needlessly unless they're a woman" Galette from Gundam AGE, or pretty much every character from a BioWare game. If Gainer is being portrayed as an inconsistent individual, it means that his motivation and personality is largely consistent but he (as a character) either doesn't know what he wants or how to go about achieving what he wants. Essentially that inconsistency is intentional and part of his character (likely a flaw) that he is struggling to overcome. Examples of inconsistent individuals would be Bellri Zenam from Recongista in G or Shou Zama from the first ten or so episodes of Aura Battler Dunbine. As a follow-up, if you feel Gainer is being written inconsistently why does he give you that impression? Alternatively if you feel he is being intentionally written as an inconsistent person, what narrative purpose do you think that lends to the story so far?
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Mar 25, 2015 03:11
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Theoretically there is the 'win' scenario which is backtracking to before the Exodus begins and making sure you stock up enough medical supplies. More than enough, even. But that moment's gone and you have to work with what you got.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:13
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"good", "evil", "right", "wrong" what is a circumstance anyway never heard of the thing
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Mar 25, 2015 03:24
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PoptartsNinja posted:For personal reasons I find it interesting when someone calls a character out for being inconsistent, because that has two connotations and I'd like to know which one you mean. You suggested that Gainer is inconsistent between episodes. Removing yourself from the equation (i.e. don't ask: "What would I do if I were Gainer") do you think Gainer is an inconsistently written character or do you believe Gainer is being portrayed as an inconsistent individual? I guess I didn't mean to call him inconsistant as much as I'm just questioning why he was so easily goaded into the fight with Gain when he was showing himself to be so much smarter and reasonable in the previous episode? I can't really tell if that's an actual consistancy problem or if they're intending to make Gainer a really inconsistant person.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:24
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Ok, so speaking hypothetically: If Gainer is an inconsistent individual, what purpose (if any) do you feel that serves at this point in the story? Edit: wording PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 03:35
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PoptartsNinja posted:Ok, so speaking hypothetically: If Gainer is an inconsistent individual, what purpose (if any) do you feel that serves at this point in the story? I don't know, I have no idea why Gainer would bother fighting a man bigger, stronger and more experienced to try and look cool in front of Sara, especially since later in the same episode Sara points out to him how silly he was, and she would've kissed him anyway. So basically he let Gain goad him for no reason.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:50
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Clawshrimpy posted:I don't know, I have no idea why Gainer would bother fighting a man bigger, stronger and more experienced to try and look cool in front of Sara, especially since later in the same episode Sara points out to him how silly he was, and she would've kissed him anyway. Didn't you just answer your own question there? Horny teenagers think with their dicks sometimes.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:53
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Clawshrimpy posted:I have no idea why Gainer would bother fighting a man bigger, stronger and more experienced to try and look cool in front of Sara Sounds like he did it to look cool in front of Sara
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Mar 25, 2015 03:57
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Darth Walrus posted:Didn't you just answer your own question there? I mean it makes no sense to go from isolating himself to doing the stupidest, most reckless thing to impress a girl ever.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:15
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Yeah I could totally see myself doing that as his age or my age
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Mar 25, 2015 04:18
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Clawshrimpy posted:I mean it makes no sense to go from isolating himself to doing the stupidest, most reckless thing to impress a girl ever. Horny teenagers sometimes think with their dick. It's a fairly irrational act but wanting to impress the opposite sex leads teenagers to do stupid things they normally wouldn't think of doing all the time, even in reality.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:19
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Maybe I have a hard time understanding because I'm not straight. Wasn't back in high school, either. My avoidant view of sex probably isn't helping either.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:22
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Fine, something dumb to impress someone you're attracted to. People do dumb things to impress people they're attracted to in the hope that it makes them look impressive. Hell, people at almost any age are pretty dumb in the presence of their own libido, but especially teens because they're still getting used to their libido existing in the first place.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:25
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I understand it's a hard question, and it's not even necessarily one you have to answer right away. I'm genuinely interested in your answer and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to answer. I just want to know, as someone who's never seen Overman King Gainer, what Gainer's inconsistencies tell you about him as a character. So keep that question in the back of your mind as you watch the next few episodes. In my experience if a character is being written as an inconsistent person there's almost always a reason behind it, and when it's the main character that reason is usually central to the show. I can tell you what I think that reason is but I don't want to influence any conclusions you may draw, so if you feel like trying to answer again later (or even at the end of the show itself) I'd be interested in seeing your thoughts. Again: this is a question that you can't get "wrong."
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Mar 25, 2015 04:25
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PoptartsNinja posted:I understand it's a hard question, and it's not even necessarily one you have to answer right away. I'm genuinely interested in your answer and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to answer. I just want to know, as someone who's never seen Overman King Gainer, what Gainer's inconsistencies tell you about him as a character. I think I should just move onto the 5th episode.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:29
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TARDISman posted:Fine, something dumb to impress someone you're attracted to. People do dumb things to impress people they're attracted to in the hope that it makes them look impressive. Hell, people at almost any age are pretty dumb in the presence of their own libido, but especially teens because they're still getting used to their libido existing in the first place. Also, another reason for impulsivity can be found in the part of the brain responsible for risk assessment literally is not done developing yet, along with all manner of other hormonal inputs and neurological development going on: http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/19/health/mental-health/teen-brain-impulses/
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Mar 25, 2015 04:35
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Clawshrimpy posted:Maybe I have a hard time understanding because I'm not straight. Wasn't back in high school, either. My avoidant view of sex probably isn't helping either. Don't worry about it, me neither. But you can still notice other people doing it quite often and honestly it's a common form of teenage motivation throughout all forms of media. Tomino wasn't being particularly original in that case.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:49
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Clawshrimpy posted:Give me some episodes. Right now it's so hard to get a read on him. He'll be incredibly smart and subtle one moment, and do incredibly silly to the point of kinda acting oddly towards things at another.
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Mar 25, 2015 04:50
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I don't remember much about King Gainer except that it left me feeling the story was incomplete thats my 2 cents
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Mar 25, 2015 05:10
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Clawshrimpy posted:Maybe I have a hard time understanding because I'm not straight. Wasn't back in high school, either. My avoidant view of sex probably isn't helping either. Yeah no, doing dumb things to impress a crush is something teenagers do, being Gay or straight has nothing to do with it.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:15
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Overman King Gainer Episode 5 Turns out this episode actually doesn't have much going on with Gain, Gainer and the others, nearly all the episode time is devoted to Jin's character, since this episode marks his exit from the show, since the next episode is introducing a new villain. Not that we don't get some time witht he other characters, as in the beginning of the episode, Gainer is talking to Jin as he's feeding them and the two bond a little bit as it seems that the Exodus has also wronged Jin's family as well, since Jin never knew his father because he went on a Exodus, and that's why he devoted his life to the Siberian Railway, even though Jin mostly uses this bonding to be able to subdue Gainer, take his gun, and escape, and we also learn that Gain's parents, much like Gainer's, are dead. However, I can't say I feel sympathy for him given how much of an rear end in a top hat Gain is. But other than that, pretty much everything is about Jin, now despite Jin doing some admittedly pretty evil things like hitting Gainer when he dropped his guard or attacking his subordinate in the new Blackmail Overman who was planning to kill Jin and take his corpse back to become the new leader, Jin does a lot of surprising stuff this episode. See, there's this fortune telling girl that Jin gets a fortune from while he's trying to get away from the Exodus townsfolk chasing him down, the girl honestly shows him some kindness witht he fortune reading where everyone else just wants to get him locked up again. Anyway there's this great scene where the fortune-telling girl's scumbag father is beating her for liack of selling fortunes, and Blackmail, the Overman Jin stole from that scumbag earlier, it's Overskill is invisibility and jamming communications. He steps in and stops that father from abusing his daughter, and Jin takes the girl with him, wanting to take her away from this place, wanting to show her being in an Exodus is no place for her. Of course, everyone else assumed he's taken her hostage when that's not the case at all. Anyway, during the fight there's a point where Gain and a bunch of other Silhouettes fire at King Gainer (since the Blackmail is invisible) SO either Gain had faith that Gainer could dodge it all like he did, or he didn't care if he destroyed both king Gainer and Blackmail in the process, and I'm leaning to the latter since Gain comments he's suprised Gainer was able to dodge it all, so Gain being an rear end in a top hat again, it's to be expected. The episode ends with Jin riding with the girl, heading to wherever the girl's from, as they sing a song together, but they're stopped by a new Overman from St. Regan and a gunshot from it is heard as the episode ends, I think in the end this was a pretty good exit for Jin, but I dunno, kinda wish this episode did more with Gainer and Gain, they really don't do much of note this episode.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:37
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I think it would be helpful for you to outline what exactly you define as "evil", since you seem to be using the word for a lot of things that I wouldn't apply it to.
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Mar 25, 2015 07:20
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