|
Clawshrimpy posted:But, at some point, you have to identify witht he characters on the show, especially main protagonists, So I guess I don't get your point? Gainer isn't you. He is a different (fictional) person. Identifying with someone does not mean thinking that they should behave in the way that you, personally, would behave or to think the same things that you do. Because they are not you. If you are literally unable to view characters and their actions in the context of the story that they're presented in rather than your own constructed context, then I think that you need to seriously reevaluate the way you view fictional stories.
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 02:49 |
|
|
Astro Nut posted:Depends on what you mean by identify. Some mean relate and implicitly support, some mean simply understand the character and their motivations, and some will do both. Media can be kinda nebulous in this regard, owing to the typical dissonance between TV and reality. Most people who walked away from Breaking Bad, hopefully, got the message that they were not supposed to see Walter White as a 'good guy', but they could still understand why the character did what he did, even if his reasoning could get absolutely selfish. I think a good quick way to say it is that characters don't need to be likeable and/or relateable, they just need to be compelling. After all, you're not hanging out and drinking a few beers with them, you're finding out what their story is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:10
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:Depends on what you mean by identify. Some mean relate and implicitly support, some mean simply understand the character and their motivations, and some will do both. Media can be kinda nebulous in this regard, owing to the typical dissonance between TV and reality. Most people who walked away from Breaking Bad, hopefully, got the message that they were not supposed to see Walter White as a 'good guy', but they could still understand why the character did what he did, even if his reasoning could get absolutely selfish. Because whenever I watch an anime like this, I usually find at least one character I feel i can project a little bit onto. for the early bits of Gurren Lagann it was Simon before he was forcibly changed, then later became Rossiu. in King Gainer it's well, Gainer. etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:22
|
|
|
Episode 1 14 minutes in: Man Gainer just really goes with the flow. Although he shows a little backbone in being the only person to follow Gain out of prison which led to a reaction shot from Gain. Clearly Gain is somewhat impressed with Gainer's backbone. It's unclear at this point how much of what's going on was planned by Gain and what's improvised. Clearly Gain's intention was always to get arrested and then break out again, which shows a willingness to put himself at risk in order to achieve his goals, but was he always planning to take Gainer with him? They burrow into some princesses' room and take her away, the nature of the weapon used to get in was indiscriminate. Is the princess being taken because the opportunity presented itself, or was this also planned. If it was planned how did they know the weapon wouldn't kill her? This anim is good E: Clawshrimpy try taking anim characters as they are, not as extensions of you. E2: "Will that silhouette engine work" "It'll work since it's Gain's" Gainer already seems to trust that Gain had his poo poo prepared/knows what he's doing. Namtab fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:28
|
|
|
How about not projecting? Just take a step back and instead of trying to see yourself in characters, see them as they are??
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:31
|
|
|
Projecting onto characters and hating it when they do something you wouldn't do sounds like a good way to dislike an overwhelming majority of media produced.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:37
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Because whenever I watch an anime like this, I usually find at least one character I feel i can project a little bit onto. for the early bits of Gurren Lagann it was Simon before he was forcibly changed, then later became Rossiu. in King Gainer it's well, Gainer. etc. That shifts it from something that 'you' as in the audience (as you had inferred it) to you as in for you in particular, which isn't necessarily wrong either. I mean, I just confessed to seeing some of my own familial relations in the Simon/Kamina stuff, so I can't claim innocence on such a thing. But, understand such is not an actual 'requirement' of a piece of fiction, even if sometimes advisable.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:37
|
|
|
Also haha, Rossiu literally had to choose who would live and who would die up until the last minute when the circumstances changed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:37
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Because whenever I watch an anime like this, I usually find at least one character I feel i can project a little bit onto. for the early bits of Gurren Lagann it was Simon before he was forcibly changed, then later became Rossiu. in King Gainer it's well, Gainer. etc. I think, for an interesting exercise, you should try to project and find ways to empathize with characters you normally would not. People have agendas, responsibilities, and motivations, and many times even characters you might not like still have goals that are fundamentally common. If you can wrap your head around the idea that the characters around whomever you project onto have obligations and desires beyond being nice to the person you latch onto, you might be able to better empathize with casts as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:38
|
|
|
20 minutes: So I guess if the redhead babe and the dude with the sweet blonde hair are also involved then the idea was always to get Gainer into this operation. How much was planned and how much, if any, is improvisation at this point? The word Exodus is being thrown around a lot. Based on the backstory this is presumably where people try and leave a siberian colony to try and find somewhere more inhabitable for people to live. It's going to be interesting finding out the conditions that compel people to leave the safety of the domepolises to strike out on their own, and more importantly where there seems to be an army adamant on stopping them. I don't know much about the distinction between super and real robot shows, but so far this seems like a super robot fighting real robots.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:44
|
|
|
Srice posted:Also haha, Rossiu literally had to choose who would live and who would die up until the last minute when the circumstances changed. Good point. If Rossiu was a character you saw yourself in, while adult Simon was a symbol of the things that haunt you, how did you take the revelation that he was ready to abandon a lot of the humans left to save some portion of them, when it was Simon acting to try and keep everyone alive? Why is Rossiu the good guy there when he was prepared to let so many die? Isn't sympathizing with him in such a case a betrayal of your own moral values given how you view shows? Is it simply because Simon hit him, and took so strongly after Kamina and bullying is that horrific to you that someone who was prepared to let the majority of humanity die to save some portion of it becomes more sympathetic simply for not using their words? tsob fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:46
|
|
|
It seems like a design flaw, if they're trying to stop exoduses, that parts of the cities can literally just be pulled away. Also Gainer is fatigued by piloting the robot. Is it some feature of the robot sapping his stamina, or just the difference between games and real life.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:48
|
|
|
Namtab posted:20 minutes: So I guess if the redhead babe and the dude with the sweet blonde hair are also involved then the idea was always to get Gainer into this operation. How much was planned and how much, if any, is improvisation at this point? "Super vs. real" is a distinction that's best used in a loose sense because there's no hard classification for what qualifies a machine as one or the other, because it's all too easy to go "well X is a machine that's actually a Real disguised as a Super" or vice-versa.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:49
|
|
|
I literally don't know the difference outside of "Real gets damaged more and follows some laws of physics" So episode 1 is over. I hope that episode 2 answers some of the questions presented and gives a basic idea of the stakes involved. We've had an introduction to the two primary characters, and know of at least three more that may be relevant in the future (although both the girls feature heavily in the OP so they're probably quite important). I'm hoping episode 2 does a bit of worldbuilding. Overall it was a good anim episode tho and I'm glad this thread introduced me to it
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:53
|
|
|
tsob posted:Good point. If Rossiu was a character you saw yourself in, while adult Simon was a symbol of the things that haunt you, how did you take the revelation that he was ready to abandon a lot of the humans left to save some portion of them, when it was Simon acting to try and keep everyone alive? Why is Rossiu the good guy there when he was prepared to let so many die? Isn't sympathizing with him in such a case a betrayal of your own moral values given how you view shows? Is it simply because Simon hit him, and took so strongly after Kamina and bullying is that horrific to you that someone who was prepared to let the majority of humanity die to save some portion of it becomes more sympathetic simply for not using their words? I sympathized with him because he was not a part of the philosophy and the abusive society Simon led. I had to sympathize with someone like Rissiu because everyone else acted like Simon did. He was the only person left approaching a decent human being, even though he was still awful in a different way. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:56
|
|
|
a cartoon duck posted:Are you currently seeing a therapist? 'cuz you have some serious issues to work through.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 01:57
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:I sympathized with him because he was not a part of the philosophy and the abusive society Simon led. I hope you realize that's incredibly hypocritical in light of how resistant you were to even answer a hypothetical question about saving lives by sacrificing others, and how anyone doing so is evil. You find more sympathy in people who will let millions die than in someone who would use physical violence as a last resort to save someone from committing suicide. The implication is that you think bullying is a bigger crime than genocide. Which is just daft. Edit: He was most definitely part of the society Simon led, since he was the one actually leading it while Simon was nothing more than a figurehead. Simon recognized he wasn't cut out for leading people, that he didn't have the intelligence or patience for it and let Rossiu do it in all but name given that people expected more of him. Rossiu was the one making all the calls though. There was also nothing abusive about it, beyond Rossiu trying to abandon a lot of people to ensure it's future. tsob fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:00
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:I sympathized with him because he was not a part of the philosophy and the abusive society Simon led. The abusive society of people who are free to come above ground and live in peace without getting owned by mutants E: Basically I'm learning that to make any choice about other people at all is evil and I should just go ahead and quit nursing now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:00
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:I sympathized with him because he was not a part of the philosophy and the abusive society Simon led. Do you deal with every single contradiction or choice in life by completely ignoring anything that makes you think a little harder? Because this is what I've gathered so far, from this thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:01
|
|
|
Namtab posted:I'm going to watch this anime. Same. I was going to put it off till later, but it's probably gonna get really hard to follow the discussion if I've never even seen the show. That and it sounds and looks like a rad show.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:02
|
|
|
It's really good but feels like it suffered for the number of episodes vs the amount of story they tried to do
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:04
|
|
|
tsob posted:Edit: He was most definitely part of the society Simon led, since he was the one actually leading it while Simon was nothing more than a figurehead. Simon recognized he wasn't cut out for leading people, that he didn't have the intelligence or patience for it and let Rossiu do it in all but name given that people expected more of him. Rossiu was the one making all the calls though. There was also nothing abusive about it, beyond Rossiu trying to abandon a lot of people to ensure it's future. Haha Rossiu literally made a similar call to Gaim, is this eugenics?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:04
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Haha Rossiu literally made a similar call to Gaim, is this eugenics? But on the other hand, he wasn't trying to force philosophies like SImon was. At least Rissiu was a bette roption here. Where in King Gainer Gainer was the one who was right and was the more sympathetic choice over Gain.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:But on the other hand, he wasn't trying to force philosophies like SImon was. At least Rissiu was a bette roption here. Shukaro posted:Do you deal with every single contradiction or choice in life by completely ignoring anything that makes you think a little harder?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:08
|
|
|
Rossiu, the man who wanted most humans to die was a better option than Simon, the man who wanted to fight so that all the humans could survive. Seems like a contradiction to basically everything you've said thus far about morality imho.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:08
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Rossiu, the man who wanted most humans to die was a better option than Simon, the man who wanted to fight so that all the humans could survive. Simon was also a bully who forced his toxic might makes right philosophy on people just as Kamina taught him to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:12
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:But on the other hand, he wasn't trying to force philosophies like SImon was. At least Rissiu was a bette roption here. Letting millions die is the preferable option than those millions possibly having to experience a little bullying. Do you even read what you're saying? Can you comprehend how hypocritical that is, or why people would have a problem with you saying this? You're literally saying, not just implying, that bullying is a bigger crime than genocide. Clawshrimpy posted:Simon was also a bully who forced his toxic might makes right philosophy on people just as Kamina taught him to. Yea, no, not really. The one time he used violence on someone who wasn't trying to hurt other people was on the person who was trying to kill himself and was a split second from pulling the trigger. And after a single punch to distract him from doing so he talked to the guy. His "toxic philosophy" can also be summed up as "believe in yourself", which is neither toxic, nor really a philosophy in and of itself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:12
|
|
|
...Except if anyone's forcing a philosophy by the point of the timeskip, it's Rossiu. When the question of whether or not evicting people from their homes for the purpose of a census is raised, last I recall, it was Rossiu who shot down alternatives because of the threat posed. That same pragmatism is why he tried to get rid of the Gunmen, and then abandon most of the population, deciding the limit on who should live and who should die. Simon lived by his personal code, that much I'll concede, but rarely did he force anyone else to follow it. Beyond that was government policy, which again, Rossiu was the primary force behind because he's the only one who could really motivate himself for it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:12
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Simon was also a bully who forced his toxic might makes right philosophy on people just as Kamina taught him to. PLEASE STOP IGNORING THIS THANK YOU tsob posted:I hope you realize that's incredibly hypocritical in light of how resistant you were to even answer a hypothetical question about saving lives by sacrificing others, and how anyone doing so is evil. You find more sympathy in people who will let millions die than in someone who would use physical violence as a last resort to save someone from committing suicide. The implication is that you think bullying is a bigger crime than genocide. Which is just daft.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Simon was also a bully who forced his toxic might makes right philosophy on people just as Kamina taught him to. I don't remember Simon forcing anything on anybody. He does punch rossiu in the face when rossiu is about to shoot himself due to guilt (is this bullying????)
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:14
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:...Except if anyone's forcing a philosophy by the point of the timeskip, it's Rossiu. When the question of whether or not evicting people from their homes for the purpose of a census is raised, last I recall, it was Rossiu who shot down alternatives because of the threat posed. That same pragmatism is why he tried to get rid of the Gunmen, and then abandon most of the population, deciding the limit on who should live and who should die. Except when he hit rossiu and forced a Kamina speech down his throat you mean.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
Is punching people more or less "evil" than allowing them to kill themselves
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:16
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Except when he hit rossiu and forced a Kamina speech down his throat you mean. Yeah, why can't a man be left to commit suicide in peace
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:17
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Except when he hit rossiu and forced a Kamina speech down his throat you mean. PLEASE STOP IGNORING THIS THANK YOU tsob posted:I hope you realize that's incredibly hypocritical in light of how resistant you were to even answer a hypothetical question about saving lives by sacrificing others, and how anyone doing so is evil. You find more sympathy in people who will let millions die than in someone who would use physical violence as a last resort to save someone from committing suicide. The implication is that you think bullying is a bigger crime than genocide. Which is just daft. Namtab posted:Is punching people more or less "evil" than allowing them to kill themselves
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:17
|
|
|
Namtab posted:
a cartoon duck posted:Are you currently seeing a therapist? 'cuz you have some serious issues to work through.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:17
|
|
This is why people are arguing with you on the internet, you're too quick to jump to the moral extreme and it's something you need to be aware of in your posting, which unlike real life you have the power to edit and think about before submitting.
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Except when he hit rossiu and forced a Kamina speech down his throat you mean. Even if we accept that to be true, which it absolutely isn't - how is that worse than planning to, and then following through on abandoning a million or so people to save your chosen few?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:17
|
|
|
Cheers Shrimpy, I was willing to give you a chance but after this much I think I'll just give up trying to help you when you are clearly ignoring people actually helping and already going back down the hole from two years ago. You don't have an understanding of almost anything you actually say and ignore almost anyone who brings up a valid point, or correction. The way you are fundamentally doing things as you enjoy media only tells me that you should just stop looking at other shows besides GGG because your need to identify with a character is not going to let you have fun with just about everything. I don't particularly care for your circumstances, but you are, ultimately letting external things completely change how view just about every anime/movie/whatever and you will got to any lengths to prove to (almost no one) that this is the only way the character is. As long as you dislike the character, you will continue to cry and even make up stuff about them in order to justify it as such. Instead of making poo poo up, just say it "I hate these bad people because they remind me of bullies". No one would care if you hate a show because of that, but to try and push your assumptions as fact to everyone is also forcing a toxic philosophy down OUR throats. Yosuke fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:18
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Simon was also a bully who forced his toxic might makes right philosophy on people just as Kamina taught him to. How was he forcing anything on people? He didn't exactly fight having his power stripped from him and being thrown in prison to die.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
On a more serious note you're kinda picking isolated incidents out of context instead of looking at the entirety of a person's character and motivations. I really don't think that's good for discussion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 02:49 |
|
|
So you dislike Simon because he punched and lectured your self-insert character, yet it's irrelevant/a lesser evil than said self-insert wanting to leave most people to die? Like there's no cognitive dissonance there?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 02:19
|
|
