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RBA Starblade posted:Being stopped from going wherever I wanted by an invisible wall every twenty feet did more to break my immersion than anything Fallout 3 did. Sometimes they weren't even around cliffs, just a light hill. You get to just walk around the side of it until you go up it the direction Obsidian wanted you to go. The Invisible Wall Remover is literally the only mod I will not play FONV without, if only because of how asinine it was to be like "I can literally see my way down the other side of the mountain I am on top of to get to the place I want to go, but there is an invisible wall here because they don't want me going straight between two points on the map". gently caress your sequence, Obsidian. I'm cool with the "leveled zone" layout of the overworld (it's a whole lot better at letting you know if you're ready to go someplace than getting there and being torn apart instantly), but invisible walls just to force a path can gently caress right off. (And I love FONV...)
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Apr 5, 2015 23:25
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How is the option of preventing a crazy evil roman-knock-off empire not important at all in NV? Its not an Enclave or Super Mutant Army but the NCR is pretty explicitly the last thing in the way of Caesar controlling the Hoover Dam and taking over a sizable portion of Nevada before continuing its rapid expansion westward. If you let them win, or join them, they basically reach a point of such prosperity that they're all but guaranteed to take over a huge portion of North America. I mean, they live in a lovely slum-camp across the river from a huge military installation, are only armed with machetes, throwing spears, and janky guns, and they can still take down a heavily-armed governing force and turn its citizens into a slave army. Given the items available in the Mojave, like a death laser from space and other assorted super weapons from the Brotherhood, they would probably glass California within the decade
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Apr 5, 2015 23:31
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i have played fallout new vegas for far more hours than should be allowed by law and have never had a problem with invisible walls, what the gently caress are you weirdoes trying to accomplish
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Apr 5, 2015 23:43
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death .cab for qt posted:How is the option of preventing a crazy evil roman-knock-off empire not important at all in NV? Its not an Enclave or Super Mutant Army but the NCR is pretty explicitly the last thing in the way of Caesar controlling the Hoover Dam and taking over a sizable portion of Nevada before continuing its rapid expansion westward. If you let them win, or join them, they basically reach a point of such prosperity that they're all but guaranteed to take over a huge portion of North America. The Legion is in the long term a non-issue because the game makes sure you know that it will fall apart the moment Caeser dies. And even if you don't shoot him, he's old and is currently dying of brain cancer. Even if you cure it yourself, the game explains that he's the one thing holding it together since they're all just raiders and slavers and rapists from like 90 different tribes Caesar conquered but otherwise have no ties. The ensuing power struggle would bring it down. It's just a supermassive cult of personality. It also explains that it can't take the NCR because it would take the whole army to effectively occupy it, meaning it collapses anyway. It cannot win no matter what. This is supposedly balanced by the NCR being too big and bloated for its own good and straining under its own weight. quote:(And I love FONV...) Me too, I think both FO3 and NV are excellent games, despite their gigantic flaws. Same with the Elder Scrolls! I wish I would stop forgetting to install that mod though. RBA Starblade has a new favorite as of 23:51 on Apr 5, 2015 |
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Apr 5, 2015 23:48
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Alouicious posted:i have played fallout new vegas for far more hours than should be allowed by law and have never had a problem with invisible walls, what the gently caress are you weirdoes trying to accomplish Yeah I've never had a problem with invisible walls? Unless I accidentally modded them out.
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Apr 5, 2015 23:51
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RBA Starblade posted:The Legion is in the long term a non-issue because the game makes sure you know that it will fall apart the moment Caeser dies. And even if you don't shoot him, he's old and is currently dying of brain cancer. Even if you cure it yourself, the game explains that he's the one thing holding it together since they're all just raiders and slavers and rapists from like 90 different tribes Caesar conquered but otherwise have no ties. The ensuing power struggle would bring it down. It's just a supermassive cult of personality. It also explains that it can't take the NCR because it would take the whole army to effectively occupy it, meaning it collapses anyway. It cannot win no matter what. This is supposedly balanced by the NCR being too big and bloated for its own good and straining under its own weight. Thing is Caesar intends for New Vegas to be his Rome and if he takes it, he may well be able to establish succession and so on.
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Apr 5, 2015 23:58
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Mister Adequate posted:Thing is Caesar intends for New Vegas to be his Rome and if he takes it, he may well be able to establish succession and so on. The game states outright from several different people that when Caesar dies the Legion dies. If Caesar dies ingame, it already passes to his second-in-command, and it doesn't make a difference.
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Apr 6, 2015 00:00
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Alouicious posted:i have played fallout new vegas for far more hours than should be allowed by law and have never had a problem with invisible walls, what the gently caress are you weirdoes trying to accomplish Goodsprings to Novac, straight over the ridge, bypassing Primm, Nipton and the blind deathclaw in Primm Pass. There's an invisible wall on that route that tries to force you either south into Primm Pass or north into...I don't remember what poo poo you had to deal with if you tried to go north around it, but I'm guessing it was cazadores or deathclaws. You can get literally to the peak of the ridge...and then the game won't let you go down the other side.
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Apr 6, 2015 00:03
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Goodsprings to Novac, straight over the ridge, bypassing Primm, Nipton and the blind deathclaw in Primm Pass. There's an invisible wall on that route that tries to force you either south into Primm Pass or north into...I don't remember what poo poo you had to deal with if you tried to go north around it, but I'm guessing it was cazadores or deathclaws. You can get literally to the peak of the ridge...and then the game won't let you go down the other side. is this that sequence breaking poo poo i keep hearing so much about, i never understood that
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Apr 6, 2015 00:16
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^ Open-world sandbox games, by definition, don't have sequence breaking in the way you're thinking. You're supposed to be able to go wherever and not have to deal with "No, don't go west out of this town, you must go east unless you want to die a lot".Kugyou no Tenshi posted:The Invisible Wall Remover is literally the only mod I will not play FONV without, if only because of how asinine it was to be like "I can literally see my way down the other side of the mountain I am on top of to get to the place I want to go, but there is an invisible wall here because they don't want me going straight between two points on the map". gently caress your sequence, Obsidian. According to ropekid, the invisible walls aren't about sequence or the breaking thereof. Without the invisible walls, Deathclaws and Cazadors (which are totally not placed so as to prevent players from going places outside of the Intended Path, fer shure you guise) would amble around too much, killing too many NPCs without the player knowing. It's annoying because Thing One should've been "wait, why are we putting up these things that essentially block people from going where they want to in an open-world sandbox game?", but :thatsObsidian: MisterBibs has a new favorite as of 00:23 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 00:20
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Nobody ever denied that poo poo like Deathclaws isn't intended to direct the player, and I have never heard the idea that all content should be equally accessible at all levels in an open world game. We saw how that works in Oblivion and it was loving awful.
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Apr 6, 2015 00:40
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Mister Adequate posted:Nobody ever denied that poo poo like Deathclaws isn't intended to direct the player, and I have never heard the idea that all content should be equally accessible at all levels in an open world game. We saw how that works in Oblivion and it was loving awful. You've never heard of it except for in the game you know about where it is implimented?
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Apr 6, 2015 00:52
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SiKboy posted:You've never heard of it except for in the game you know about where it is implimented? Fug. I am really sick lately. I have heard it once. 
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Apr 6, 2015 01:39
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Mister Adequate posted:Nobody ever denied that poo poo like Deathclaws isn't intended to direct the player, and I have never heard the idea that all content should be equally accessible at all levels in an open world game. We saw how that works in Oblivion and it was loving awful. Barriers to parts of the world are fine, but when your barriers are "high level enemies" and you put it next to the very start of the game and you then design the map to be so open that they can wander in and murder npcs (and you) with nothing able to stop them, the solution is to redesign the map, not putting up invisible walls. Though my particular complaint was I kept hitting walls that were there for no reason at all other than to make you take a longer route. No enemies or anything in the way, I just had to go several minutes around a thing instead of over the thing I was already at the top of but not allowed to move forward through.
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Apr 6, 2015 01:50
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RBA Starblade posted:Barriers to parts of the world are fine, but when your barriers are "high level enemies" and you put it next to the very start of the game and you then design the map to be so open that they can wander in and murder npcs (and you) with nothing able to stop them, the solution is to redesign the map, not putting up invisible walls. Though my particular complaint was I kept hitting walls that were there for no reason at all other than to make you take a longer route. No enemies or anything in the way, I just had to go several minutes around a thing instead of over the thing I was already at the top of but not allowed to move forward through. Look, the awful Q&A in New Vegas was 100% Bethesda's fault and Obsidian was totally blameless. -computer BSOD's five minutes into Pillars of Eternity, after getting around the bug with a bunch of obscure console commands all character bonuses are lost forever because you double-clicked on your inventory-
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Apr 6, 2015 01:54
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Sleeveless posted:after getting around the bug with a bunch of obscure console commands all character bonuses are lost forever because you double-clicked on your inventory- Also bugs/QA problems aren't really the same thing as dumb design decisions (which the NV soft gates certainly are) so I dunno why you're rambling about those.
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Apr 6, 2015 01:58
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Sleeveless posted:after getting around the bug with a bunch of obscure console commands I've been playing the Fallout 3+ new Vegas merged mod and I'll be damned if i haven't had to console my way through more of it than I'd like. If I hadn't already wasted so many hours with Oblivion and Morrowind I would have gotten stuck before Novac. Also as far as sequence breaking goes, the game sets you up to go south, then east, then back up north to get to Vegas but you can go through cazzador and deathclaw territory to skip it. It was my understanding that this was intentional so that returning players could skip right to the bulk of the plot if they navigate through end game enemies to get to it, but do the invisible walls prevent you from doing so without mods?
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Apr 6, 2015 02:01
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Amorphous Blob posted:Also as far as sequence breaking goes, the game sets you up to go south, then east, then back up north to get to Vegas but you can go through cazzador and deathclaw territory to skip it. It was my understanding that this was intentional so that returning players could skip right to the bulk of the plot if they navigate through end game enemies to get to it, but do the invisible walls prevent you from doing so without mods? No, but it does make it more difficult by funneling you directly into them. You pretty much need a stealth boy to get through either way.
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Apr 6, 2015 02:03
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Amorphous Blob posted:Also as far as sequence breaking goes, the game sets you up to go south, then east, then back up north to get to Vegas but you can go through cazzador and deathclaw territory to skip it. It was my understanding that this was intentional so that returning players could skip right to the bulk of the plot if they navigate through end game enemies to get to it, but do the invisible walls prevent you from doing so without mods? With the Invisible Wall Remover, you're not funneled into either endgame enemy territory - you literally go straight over the ridge like physics says you should (it's not even a particularly tricky climb) and only the wall says you shouldn't.
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Apr 6, 2015 02:06
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I'm not a programmer, but it seems like you should be able to create an invisible object that breaks sight lines but not movement, or even one that restricts NPC movement but not player movement. One of those seems like it would fix both the problems. That stuff bothered me a bit trying to finish one of the mid-late game sidequests.
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Apr 6, 2015 02:26
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The "Deathclaws were wandering all over the open world" argument is dumb because they don't wander up to the invisible barriers either, they have a particular aggro distance and they pretty well stick to it. If they lose sight of the character or an NPC for too long they go home, they don't go wandering all over the game map killing whatever they find. It would also have been fairly easy to put like, a gate on the quarry if they really wanted to keep the barrier-less map, they simply did not want to.
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Apr 6, 2015 02:35
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RBA Starblade posted:Barriers to parts of the world are fine, but when your barriers are "high level enemies" and you put it next to the very start of the game and you then design the map to be so open that they can wander in and murder npcs (and you) with nothing able to stop them, the solution is to redesign the map, not putting up invisible walls. Though my particular complaint was I kept hitting walls that were there for no reason at all other than to make you take a longer route. No enemies or anything in the way, I just had to go several minutes around a thing instead of over the thing I was already at the top of but not allowed to move forward through. I never heard of NPCs getting killed myself but yeah I can't argue that it is bullshit, as are straight-up invisible walls. I never had nearly as many problems in NV as I did in 3 so I guess that colors my view.
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Apr 6, 2015 03:16
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NPCs getting killed by enemy encounters is a thing dragging Skyrim way down for me. I did enough of the main quest to start unlocking shouts and dragons are showing up everywhere, to the point where everyone that lived in my lakeside house is dead and irreplaceable. I don't get why modern RPGs can't do something to keep people from dying randomly. In FO3 and Oblivion I would periodically find a corpse, look it up online and it turns out I'd been locked out of side quests because monsters killed the quest giver. I think it was in NV where at one point in a quest an NPC travels from one place to another, and if you don't literally follow them and keep them safe they would die even if you were on the other side of the world, making the quest impossible to finish
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Apr 6, 2015 12:59
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Alouicious posted:i have played fallout new vegas for far more hours than should be allowed by law and have never had a problem with invisible walls, what the gently caress are you weirdoes trying to accomplish Some people really like spending five hours jumping up a mountain trying to find the exact pixel to land on where they won't slide off so they can get somewhere that only takes 30 minutes to get to following the road.
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Apr 6, 2015 13:37
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Who What Now posted:Some people really like spending five hours jumping up a mountain trying to find the exact pixel to land on where they won't slide off so they can get somewhere that only takes 30 minutes to get to following the road. seems like it
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Apr 6, 2015 15:10
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The Blue Pyramid posted:NPCs getting killed by enemy encounters is a thing dragging Skyrim way down for me. I did enough of the main quest to start unlocking shouts and dragons are showing up everywhere, to the point where everyone that lived in my lakeside house is dead and irreplaceable. I don't get why modern RPGs can't do something to keep people from dying randomly. In FO3 and Oblivion I would periodically find a corpse, look it up online and it turns out I'd been locked out of side quests because monsters killed the quest giver. I think it was in NV where at one point in a quest an NPC travels from one place to another, and if you don't literally follow them and keep them safe they would die even if you were on the other side of the world, making the quest impossible to finish When did this happen in Oblivion?
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Apr 6, 2015 16:28
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Lizard Wizard posted:When did this happen in Oblivion? Almost constantly.
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Apr 6, 2015 16:40
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Oh, bullshit.
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Apr 6, 2015 16:45
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Lizard Wizard posted:Oh, bullshit. 
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Apr 6, 2015 16:54
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I don't remember it happening so much in Oblivion* but NPCs getting murdered in Skyrim was frustrating as hell. With the combination of dragon attacks and the dlc vampires townfolk could just get slaughtered. It's interesting up to a point, but when a bunch of NPCs die because they decided to wail on the giant firebreathing lizard with their fists it just gets loving annoying. *I do remember occasional AI freakouts where one of the sneaky NPCs stole an apple or something, guards showed up, someone hit someone and before you know it half the town's brawling. Don't think that was at all intended behavior though.
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Apr 6, 2015 16:59
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i like the deathclaws where they are. sets up a super difficult enemy for you to come back to when you're leveled, you know, like good games do e: immolate me for participating in NV chat
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Apr 6, 2015 17:03
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I'm a big fan of 50+ quests I don't want stacking on me We've already talked about it, but what the gently caress
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Apr 6, 2015 17:07
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And what quest is she important to?
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Apr 6, 2015 17:16
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dataisplural posted:i like the deathclaws where they are. sets up a super difficult enemy for you to come back to when you're leveled, you know, like good games do Fallout 3 managed that without invisible walls everywhere that wasn't giant piles of rubble in DC. quote:seems like it It's like a ten degree incline I think my guy in powered armor should be able to handle that.
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Apr 6, 2015 17:17
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EgoEgress posted:With the combination of dragon attacks and the dlc vampires townfolk could just get slaughtered. It's interesting up to a point, but when a bunch of NPCs die because they decided to wail on the giant firebreathing lizard with their fists it just gets loving annoying. Honestly, a simple change where only NPCs who are currently carrying a weapon would join a fight and everyone else would run to their home in case their village gets invaded by a dragon or vampire or whatever would make it so much better. Obviously you expect the guards to fight, being that it's their job and all, and it would be pretty cool to see villagers with weapons, whether they're hunters or Companions or just those drunk warriors resting at a bar or whatever, deciding to help defend their town, but no matter how many times I see it, some middle-aged housewife or rich dandy charging in to punch an Elder Dragon in the face never gets any less ridiculous. ElGroucho posted:I'm a big fan of 50+ quests I don't want stacking on me Dragon Age: Inquisition was the worst about this. There was just too much content, which isn't a complaint I thought I'd ever make about a game. By the end my save file was 70 hours long and I had given up on a bunch of sidequests and one whole area just to finally be done with the drat game. You can't go three steps without tripping over a dead body with a ring you have to give to their wife or a letter directing you to find some rear end in a top hat in the middle of nowhere so they can inevitably be dead and you loot them for some middling gear.
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Apr 6, 2015 17:17
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Lizard Wizard posted:And what quest is she important to? For someone who complained endlessly during his Oblivion LP you sure are quick to stick up for that terrible game!
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Apr 6, 2015 17:22
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Heavy Lobster posted:For someone who complained endlessly during his Oblivion LP you sure are quick to stick up for that terrible game! I'm not defending it, just saying that a non-questgiver up and dying does not build a strong case for the claim of "questgivers up and die constantly." Scaly Haylie has a new favorite as of 17:32 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 17:29
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Half of loving Cyrodiil was invulnerable, I can't even play that game without mods that turn most people killable. Oblivion has literally the exact opposite problem and you will frequently come across random assholes you can't kill because of some bullshit side quest they have one line in or something. The game should be far more brutal in that regard, given there is a huge daedric invasion going on but it is never more than a minor inconvenience, but if people genuinely want a totally sanitized experience where absolutely nothing happens except at the hands of the player, I guess I can't blame Bethesda.
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Apr 6, 2015 17:43
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Lizard Wizard posted:I'm not defending it, just saying that a non-questgiver up and dying does not build a strong case for the claim of "questgivers up and die constantly." I would wager to say that every quest-involved NPC that isn't marked as essential is at a pretty significant risk of death. It's not like the content you get locked out of is often particularly interesting, but that's a symptom of Oblivion in general, and it's not like the already-barren world needs even fewer NPCs.  Bonus example of the kind of AI that makes this poo poo happen: 
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Apr 6, 2015 17:53
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In my first Oblivion playthrough, one of Skingrad's NPCs fell off the bridge and died. He happened to be involved in the Paranoia quest (he's one of the people the crazy elf dude thinks are gang stalking him) so if I hadn't started the quest before that happened, I'd have been locked out of it. Would have been a shame, because it's a pretty fun quest.
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Apr 6, 2015 18:30
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