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Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009

Tab8715 posted:

I don't know what would the maximum VMs you could have but you can get a lot of done with a SSD and 8GB+ RAM. Virtualbox is awesome free virt. Somethings may be slow but for a lab it's awesome.

How does this work exactly?

Worth noting that VirtualBox can't do nested virt. Part of the RHCSA/RHCE curriculum (at least for RHEL 6) is using the built in KVM virtualization to spin up some VM's, which you can't do under VirtualBox. You'll want something like Workstation, Fusion or full blown ESXi. Or just install Linux on the bare metal and use that as your hypervisor.

Digital Ocean is comparable to Amazon EC2. They're another public cloud computing vendor.

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Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Docjowles posted:

Digital Ocean is comparable to Amazon EC2. They're another public cloud computing vendor.

They have a referral program too. If you want $10 credit (2 free months) you can use this link:

https://www.digitalocean.com/?refcode=9f5cb0b5f420

FULL DISCLOSURE: If you spend $25 I get $25 in credit.

I like Digital Ocean because it's easy. They have preconfigured VMs so you can deploy WordPress in about 5 minutes with zero Linux experience.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl
They probably get hacked 5 minutes later. Wordpress as sass is ok. Managing your own is just asking for it.

VMware and KVM are good are good recommendations. So is Xen. Virtualbox lacks nested virt but is otherwise good. Hyper-V lacks nested virt and memory page sharing, which makes running multiple similar guests a lot more memory intensive than it needs to be.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


I'm going to see a big performance drop with nested-virt? Or would I be able to at least do my RHCSA labs without any issues?

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

evol262 posted:

They probably get hacked 5 minutes later. Wordpress as sass is ok. Managing your own is just asking for it.

poo poo...

Well, I am trying to learn how to administer Linux, do I need to get onto a specialized cloud service or are there steps to keep things secure?

I use huge passwords, and you can't even get to the wp-admin page without putting in a different long password.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



evol262 posted:

They probably get hacked 5 minutes later. Wordpress as sass is ok. Managing your own is just asking for it.

Wordpress has unattended auto-update now, so it's less of an issue than it was.


Just harden your install and shut off any unnecessary services.

https://access.redhat.com/documenta...d_Services.html

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Dr. Arbitrary posted:

poo poo...

Well, I am trying to learn how to administer Linux, do I need to get onto a specialized cloud service or are there steps to keep things secure?

I use huge passwords, and you can't even get to the wp-admin page without putting in a different long password.

Segmenting services is the best bet for security. Linux is secure out of the box in 99% of circumstances. Wordpress below.

flosofl posted:

Wordpress has unattended auto-update now, so it's less of an issue than it was.


Just harden your install and shut off any unnecessary services.

https://access.redhat.com/documenta...d_Services.html

The RHEL security guide is good, but I'm guessing that was meant as a reply to Dr. Arbitrary.

Wordpress core auto-updates, yeah, and has for a long time, but... The huge array of terrible plugins which people "need" and either have security holes of their own or don't keep up with core wordpress so their users end up running behind so some crappy external code still runs are the ones who get killed.

Tab8715 posted:

I'm going to see a big performance drop with nested-virt? Or would I be able to at least do my RHCSA labs without any issues?

Honestly depends on your CPU and hypervisor, in that order. You'll probably be fine, though pre-Sandy Bridge Intel CPUs are pretty bad at it.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

evol262 posted:

Wordpress core auto-updates, yeah, and has for a long time, but... The huge array of terrible plugins which people "need" and either have security holes of their own or don't keep up with core wordpress so their users end up running behind so some crappy external code still runs are the ones who get killed.

Ok, I'm running a pretty basic site, I've got a calendar plugin but other than that it's core WordPress. Hopefully the calendar doesn't have a problem :(

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



evol262 posted:

Wordpress core auto-updates, yeah, and has for a long time, but... The huge array of terrible plugins which people "need" and either have security holes of their own or don't keep up with core wordpress so their users end up running behind so some crappy external code still runs are the ones who get killed.

Crap, you're right. I didn't even take into account plugins. I have it running as an internal MOTD and KB for the group, so I don't have any plugins except WP Footnotes. But yeah, some of those plugins are poison.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



Docjowles posted:

Or just install Linux on the bare metal and use that as your hypervisor.
Could I just install any version of Linux, or does it need to be a specific one? Wikipedia makes it sound like you have to buy a license for Red Hat Enterprise. I've been meaning to get some Linux experience for almost a decade now, so I might as well get to it.

Daylen Drazzi
Mar 10, 2007

Why do I root for Notre Dame? Because I like pain, and disappointment, and anguish. Notre Dame Football has destroyed more dreams than the Irish Potato Famine, and that is the kind of suffering I can get behind.

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Could I just install any version of Linux, or does it need to be a specific one? Wikipedia makes it sound like you have to buy a license for Red Hat Enterprise. I've been meaning to get some Linux experience for almost a decade now, so I might as well get to it.

VMware's ESXi is available for free to use if you are installing it on one machine with, I believe, no more than 2 CPUs and/or 32GB of RAM. It will not be as fully functional as the paid license version (no High Availability, no Fault Tolerance, no Distributed Resource Scheduler, etc) but you aren't running a data center so it hardly matters. Once you have ESXi running throw in a couple Linux VMs - I personally use Slackware, but a lot of people consider that to be a bit much and would recommend CentOS if you want the consumer version of Red Hat experience.

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Could I just install any version of Linux, or does it need to be a specific one? Wikipedia makes it sound like you have to buy a license for Red Hat Enterprise. I've been meaning to get some Linux experience for almost a decade now, so I might as well get to it.

Use CentOS. It's pretty much literally a find-and-replace of the words "Red Hat" and their logo with CentOS. Plus a couple utilities that are pointless without a paid RHN sub stripped out. But it's functionally identical to RHEL. You don't need paid licenses for your lab.

Lots of companies even run CentOS in production if they don't feel they need the support contract.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Could I just install any version of Linux, or does it need to be a specific one? Wikipedia makes it sound like you have to buy a license for Red Hat Enterprise. I've been meaning to get some Linux experience for almost a decade now, so I might as well get to it.

KVM is in the mainline kernel, and it's call open source (everything we write is also open source and there's a corresponding upstream product for any paid redhat product). Any distro will have KVM

As I've noted repeatedly, there's no license for RHEL. There's a yearly subscription which entitles you to updates. And there's a developer subscription which is very cheap.

But I'd run centos or fedora anyway. I do run centos and fedora

Bhodi
Dec 9, 2007

Oh, it's just a cat.
Pillbug

flosofl posted:

Wordpress has unattended auto-update now, so it's less of an issue than it was.
Wordpress itself is not a problem, it's all the horribly insecure and backdoor-riddled plugins you download from the pirate bay.

Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

Bhodi posted:

Wordpress itself is not a problem, it's all the horribly insecure and backdoor-riddled plugins you download from the pirate bay.

Correct, also include horribly coded custom themes and whatnot from Joe Photoshop on ThemeForest or whatever

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



CentOS it is, then.

First day at my new job. My supervisor hopes some of this will change, but we don't even get access to remote in to user PCs. So anyone who needs a new printer added needs to be escalated to level 2.

Chickenwalker
Apr 21, 2011

by FactsAreUseless
.

Chickenwalker fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Mar 1, 2019

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


:yotj: = Year of the Job

And as for whether you should :yotj: or not, if you feel you deserve way more then go and get it. Because it's not going to come to you. It's not a question we can answer for you, though.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



So, what can I study in my downtime that's relevant to being a helpdesk operator that can't even remote in?

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





22 Eargesplitten posted:

CentOS it is, then.

First day at my new job. My supervisor hopes some of this will change, but we don't even get access to remote in to user PCs. So anyone who needs a new printer added needs to be escalated to level 2.

That is hilarious. I would be less worried about which flavor of Linux I was using and more worried about which flavor of liquor I was drinking.

22 Eargesplitten posted:

So, what can I study in my downtime that's relevant to being a helpdesk operator that can't even remote in?

Your answer is nothing. There is nothing you can study in your downtime that is relevant to being a helpdesk operator that can't remote in. Study whatever interests you in the slightest and if your company has documentation, focus on setting yourself apart from the pack by being a documentation guru.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

22 Eargesplitten posted:

So, what can I study in my downtime that's relevant to being a helpdesk operator that can't even remote in?

Powershell is useful if you're in a windows environment. It depends on your permissions but you may be able to run a lot of commands against remote computers for diagnosis.
There are probably a lot of useful dos commands and powershell commandlets that will never go out of style.

One I like a lot is
Get-WmiObject -ComputerName xxxxxxxxx -Class Win32_BIOS

This will give you the remote PC's serial number.

get-wmiobject -ComputerName xxxxxxxx -Class win32_LogicalDisk | Where-Object {$_.DriveType -eq 3}

Will give you all the physical drives

Get-Service -ComputerName xxxxxxxx
will give you a list of all the running services.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



Internet Explorer posted:

That is hilarious. I would be less worried about which flavor of Linux I was using and more worried about which flavor of liquor I was drinking.


Your answer is nothing. There is nothing you can study in your downtime that is relevant to being a helpdesk operator that can't remote in. Study whatever interests you in the slightest and if your company has documentation, focus on setting yourself apart from the pack by being a documentation guru.

Yeah, I'll probably read the documentation for the next couple days. Or the next day, there isn't much to read. This company is basically rebuilding its T1 IT right now. So things have the potential to change quickly. But if they don't change within a couple months, I'll probably be looking for greener pastures.

Edit: still better than my last job.

22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Apr 7, 2015

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


I work on a Mac all day with a reasonable amount of downtime, so I'm going to hope that the very minimal amount of programming I've done in the past can guide me through learning Swift. If for no other reason that to be able to flesh out our AppleScript-with-GUI single-task apps into things more useful.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Thanks Ants posted:

I work on a Mac all day with a reasonable amount of downtime, so I'm going to hope that the very minimal amount of programming I've done in the past can guide me through learning Swift. If for no other reason that to be able to flesh out our AppleScript-with-GUI single-task apps into things more useful.

Learn python or ruby and use wxwindows unless you really wanna be an iOS dev

MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

around and around we go

Dr. Arbitrary posted:

Powershell is useful if you're in a windows environment.
Just tonight I had one of those "I need to live and breathe Powershell" moments. Trying to roll out a web application and the add role feature is just being a right bastard for me. It's throwing an error that it failed to open the runspace pool. My old friend google is pointing me to all sorts of winrm changes - quickconfig, enumerate a listener, the ole stop-and-start. No fixes. I bounce off every corner of the internet. It's a new server, I know the app works, what is going on here.

I switch to installing the roles I want via Powershell, and we're right back in business. install-windowsfeature -name web-mgmt-compat you magnificent beast.

I really need to flip the mental switch and turn Powershell from being a useful alternative to being my primary approach. It's too vital and too powerful for me to maintain this pre-2009 "you can use it to pipe information to a csv" mentality I have.

MC Fruit Stripe fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Apr 7, 2015

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006
Second day at my new job, first day working the 5am shift. Come in to find the overnight guy has gotten the main line to forward to his cell and doesn't know how to turn it off.... Never get yourself into a spot you can't google out of seems like a good rule of thumb.

whaam
Mar 18, 2008
I'm just looking to update my resume and am not quite sure what the current trend is. Should I be keeping it to 2 pages? Is listing technical skills and acronyms needed for HR filters, or is it considered tacky? I'm currently a senior architect and not sure what my next position might be, either management or another architect role. Obviously I will adjust based on that, but generally what do you guys recommend for content and length?

MJP
Jun 17, 2007

Are you looking at me Senpai?

Grimey Drawer

whaam posted:

I'm just looking to update my resume and am not quite sure what the current trend is. Should I be keeping it to 2 pages? Is listing technical skills and acronyms needed for HR filters, or is it considered tacky? I'm currently a senior architect and not sure what my next position might be, either management or another architect role. Obviously I will adjust based on that, but generally what do you guys recommend for content and length?

Right now I have two pages of actual resume, and one page of technical skills in categories of OS/hypervisor, software, and hardware. The technical page also lists specific certifications and dates they were earned.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

whaam posted:

I'm just looking to update my resume and am not quite sure what the current trend is. Should I be keeping it to 2 pages? Is listing technical skills and acronyms needed for HR filters, or is it considered tacky? I'm currently a senior architect and not sure what my next position might be, either management or another architect role. Obviously I will adjust based on that, but generally what do you guys recommend for content and length?

If they can't figure out your technical skills from reading the projects you were involved in, is it a company you want to work for? Your CV should be projects and business improvements, IMO, with as much technical detail as is necessary to describe how your role in those projects.

I keep the last ~3 jobs or 5 years of work history, whichever is longer, with maybe 1/3rd of a page per job (depending on the length of the bullets). That usually ends up as 2 pages once education and contact info and stuff is included, but it's not a hard-and-fast rule.

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

Mine's two pages. About half is work history and the other half is certs and skills. Don't discount having a list of all of your technical skills. It makes it easy for recruiters and HR folks to just quickly scan and see if you have a skill listed that's a requirement for them. Inevitability it will lead to you getting calls and emails about jobs you aren't a fit for. I'd take that over no calls though.

Bhodi
Dec 9, 2007

Oh, it's just a cat.
Pillbug
Mine's also two pages, but the second page is mostly poo poo for search engines - a list of common skills, my certs. The first page is what humans look at.

IMO your resume should be 1 page unless you've got a decade or more experience, though. Brevity along with remembering that it's not what you know, it's what you did is key IMO.

If you're at the senior level I sort of disagree with evol in that I feel you can drop a lot of specifics. I dumped specific hardware products I have experience with (different sans, switches, specific versions of linux) for more general terms, both to make space and also because it's a reflection of your ability to see the larger picture and proven ability to become quickly familiar with any specific product in a sphere (because you are an awesome senior level dude).

Bhodi fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Apr 7, 2015

Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.
Three pages, first page list of work history/certifications/education, second page itemized technical skills, and page 3 is a quick overview of major projects I've worked on in the past with a quick executive level summary of what each accomplished along with timeframes.

whaam
Mar 18, 2008

Gyshall posted:

Three pages, first page list of work history/certifications/education, second page itemized technical skills, and page 3 is a quick overview of major projects I've worked on in the past with a quick executive level summary of what each accomplished along with timeframes.

Right now I have experience taking up page 1, education and major projects taking up page 2. The big question is do I need that third page full of acronyms, protocols, etc. I know that would depend a lot on the position being applied for. Do you guys list all of these skills on your linkedin as well? It seems like that is where they would do the most good/bad at grabbing recruiters attention.

Bhodi posted:

Mine's also two pages, but the second page is mostly poo poo for search engines - a list of common skills, my certs. The first page is what humans look at.

IMO your resume should be 1 page unless you've got a decade or more experience, though. Brevity along with remembering that it's not what you know, it's what you did is key IMO.

If you're at the senior level I sort of disagree with evol in that I feel you can drop a lot of specifics. I dumped specific hardware products I have experience with (different sans, switches, specific versions of linux) for more general terms, both to make space and also because it's a reflection of your ability to see the larger picture and proven ability to become quickly familiar with any specific product in a sphere (because you are an awesome senior level dude).

Definitely have more than a decade of experience but I haven't done a lot of job hopping. Many positions working up through the same company. I can fit my experience on one page but I like to have three detailed paragraphs about my biggest and most successful projects. I think a summary to start with is good as well. My big sticking point is if its worth listing line after line of technical skills like: CentOS, BGP, VMware SRM. Or is it best left to things like: Network architecture, Storage engineering. I feel like the filters will only pick up on the specifics even though they look messy on a resume.

Bhodi
Dec 9, 2007

Oh, it's just a cat.
Pillbug
My linked-in is basically a carbon-copy of my resume, right now, yes. Next time I actively look for a job I may strip out the skills section entirely and hack it down to 1 page, and find some sort of way to say "Check out my linked-in if you want acronym spam" rather than tack on a useless page full of search engine optimized word salad.

Maybe "References available on request, additional experience details available online at" or something.

I've seen but don't overly like the format of major projects in an additional page because it feels like I'm reading the same thing twice and then that makes me feel like my time is just being wasted. The resume's goal is to get them to talk to you in person and ask questions, not pre-answer any conceivable permutation of "have you worked with..."

Bhodi fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Apr 7, 2015

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

whaam posted:

Right now I have experience taking up page 1, education and major projects taking up page 2. The big question is do I need that third page full of acronyms, protocols, etc. I know that would depend a lot on the position being applied for. Do you guys list all of these skills on your linkedin as well? It seems like that is where they would do the most good/bad at grabbing recruiters attention.
You're a senior architect. Do you need attention from recruiters who spam everyone who has Force10 experience for a 4 month contract in NJ, or are you going to be applying to jobs that you're actually interested in and where you can reasonably expect them to know what the acronyms are talking about (or call you/bring you in for an interview where you can either explain them off the cuff of they don't matter)?

It's really tempting to have some kind of acronym/protocol soup where you say "every piece of technology I've ever worked with!" Don't. Like Bhodi said, senior guys in most roles have picked up new tools over and over again, because the principles behind most of the stuff we do is pretty similar, and it's not gonna take a month to learn a new tool. Otherwise you'll be the guys who have stuff they literally haven't touched in years on their resume who flop on questions about Solaris.

Don't have anything on your resume that you don't want to be asked about or don't want to work with.

whaam posted:

Definitely have more than a decade of experience but I haven't done a lot of job hopping. Many positions working up through the same company. I can fit my experience on one page but I like to have three detailed paragraphs about my biggest and most successful projects. I think a summary to start with is good as well. My big sticking point is if its worth listing line after line of technical skills like: CentOS, BGP, VMware SRM. Or is it best left to things like: Network architecture, Storage engineering. I feel like the filters will only pick up on the specifics even though they look messy on a resume.
Bluntly, no. This stuff is useless. As a hiring manager, tell me what you did with it.

"CentOS" is an operating system. Great. What did you do with it? Daily administration? Automated deployments? Throw in what you did with CentOS in a bullet under whatever role used it (or the most junior one if you moved up from junior->whatever).

"BGP" is a protocol. Great. What did you do with BGP? Was it external facing? Were you using it for site reliability? Multi-site failover?

And, again, you're a senior architect. Why are you looking for filters? You're at a point in your career where you should be picking specific jobs you want and going for them.

whaam
Mar 18, 2008

evol262 posted:

You're a senior architect. Do you need attention from recruiters who spam everyone who has Force10 experience for a 4 month contract in NJ, or are you going to be applying to jobs that you're actually interested in and where you can reasonably expect them to know what the acronyms are talking about (or call you/bring you in for an interview where you can either explain them off the cuff of they don't matter)?

It's really tempting to have some kind of acronym/protocol soup where you say "every piece of technology I've ever worked with!" Don't. Like Bhodi said, senior guys in most roles have picked up new tools over and over again, because the principles behind most of the stuff we do is pretty similar, and it's not gonna take a month to learn a new tool. Otherwise you'll be the guys who have stuff they literally haven't touched in years on their resume who flop on questions about Solaris.

Don't have anything on your resume that you don't want to be asked about or don't want to work with.

Bluntly, no. This stuff is useless. As a hiring manager, tell me what you did with it.

"CentOS" is an operating system. Great. What did you do with it? Daily administration? Automated deployments? Throw in what you did with CentOS in a bullet under whatever role used it (or the most junior one if you moved up from junior->whatever).

"BGP" is a protocol. Great. What did you do with BGP? Was it external facing? Were you using it for site reliability? Multi-site failover?

And, again, you're a senior architect. Why are you looking for filters? You're at a point in your career where you should be picking specific jobs you want and going for them.

Thanks, that snapped me out of it a bit.

I see others with all their skills listed in detail and think I'm missing out. I'm not looking to get spammed by recruiters, just want to make sure my profile is top notch and my resume is as well. In fact I'm not looking at all, just want to make sure my resume and career networking is up to snuff so that if I ever do need or want to move I can hit the ground running.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

evol262 posted:

And, again, you're a senior architect. Why are you looking for filters? You're at a point in your career where you should be picking specific jobs you want and going for them.

You're mostly correct, but some jobs don't make it into public job search sites and are only filled through recruiters (like my current job) so a list of filter catching technologies that you're comfortable with and want to work with isn't a bad idea. Just pare it down to a reasonable list that you're comfortable talking about and that suitably reflect your current skills.

Sacred Cow
Aug 13, 2007
Every company has a different hiring process but in my personal experience, even if you have an "in" at the place you're trying to work for, you still need to make it through the HR filter. If you don't match certain keywords they toss your resume in the trash. Its a necessary evil to put those buzz words in.

Also, there's no way to avoid getting spammed by recruiters. If its posted anywhere, even just to a particular company's internal site, you'll get spammed. I'm getting calls from my current company's recruiters asking if I'm in the job market.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

NippleFloss posted:

You're mostly correct, but some jobs don't make it into public job search sites and are only filled through recruiters (like my current job) so a list of filter catching technologies that you're comfortable with and want to work with isn't a bad idea. Just pare it down to a reasonable list that you're comfortable talking about and that suitably reflect your current skills.

I mean, I was also recruited (from a requisition that was probably public on our careers site, but I'm aware of the fact that it was listed in Brno with Remote: no, and it was rewritten to make me an offer), but I'm willing to accept that not having a "skills" section means that some recruiters may not find me.

I suspect that the amount of keywords that can be found in my actual experience and projects are enough to match filters for jobs I'm interested in, and this is almost certainly how recruiters in LinkedIn continue to get in touch.


Sacred Cow posted:

Every company has a different hiring process but in my personal experience, even if you have an "in" at the place you're trying to work for, you still need to make it through the HR filter. If you don't match certain keywords they toss your resume in the trash. Its a necessary evil to put those buzz words in.

Also, there's no way to avoid getting spammed by recruiters. If its posted anywhere, even just to a particular company's internal site, you'll get spammed. I'm getting calls from my current company's recruiters asking if I'm in the job market.

The HR filter is almost certainly not looking for a technical skills section that has BGP or AIX or EmberJS or CentOS or whatever other buzzwords we (as a pejorative for people in the industry) think are important to have on a half-page soup of words like the old things people used to put in the footer to try to game pagerank. It exists, but the HR filter is matching high-level stuff that goes in a job description, not finicky industry terms.

And no, you can't avoid recruiters entirely, but you can take yourself out of the 10+ email/call a day because you have "Oracle" or "JBoss" or whatever listed somewhere on your resume because you managed it 3 jobs ago.

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Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

whaam posted:

Right now I have experience taking up page 1, education and major projects taking up page 2. The big question is do I need that third page full of acronyms, protocols, etc. I know that would depend a lot on the position being applied for. Do you guys list all of these skills on your linkedin as well? It seems like that is where they would do the most good/bad at grabbing recruiters attention.

Yes, also listed on my LinkedIn. It is important not to just list acronyms/protocols, but to show you have an understanding of them (like the goon on this page is saying about BGP, for instance.)

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