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OwlFancier posted:Well I'm sure that would help This is silly though - I live in manchester and we don't support the tory policies either, but they won the national vote (in theory) so we haven't got a choice.
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Apr 6, 2015 13:16
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but possibly also maybe don't make them adhere to stupid tory policies that nobody there supports.
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Taear posted:This is silly though - I live in manchester and we don't support the tory policies either, but they won the national vote (in theory) so we haven't got a choice. I would agree, you can't practically have a country where people are ruled electively on a person by person basis, which is my main argument against the dissolution of the union, separating the UK truly on political lines would not be practical. But, the other way to not make people support stupid policies is to not have stupid policies which is certainly something the parties can choose to do, if they want to avoid another referendum at some point down the line. That they narrowly avoid losing a chunk of the country in opposition to their policies and then continue as if nothing had happened suggests a serious lack of foresight. You might be able to win an election by putting forward those policies but if it results in the other half of the country demanding secession, you're not doing it right. But that assumes that politicians are interested in promoting the national and public good, rather than simply getting into power, which is something I think is rather difficult to believe at the moment. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 13:21
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Taear posted:It seems beyond insane that sharing a platform with the Tories to stop the union from breaking up has completely ruined Labour's election chances in Scotland, I can't quite get it into my brain. Well, that and they've been coasting on "we're not the Tories" for a while now, and now in Scotland there's another party that also isn't the Tories and has proved themselves able to run the Scottish government in a mostly competent way (or at least, has been perceived as doing so). Even this time round, Scottish Labour's basic message is still that it's a choice between Cameron and Ed, e.g. how much they're pushing the most seats = forms the government line.
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Apr 6, 2015 13:25
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OwlFancier posted:I would agree, you can't practically have a country where people are ruled electively on a person by person basis, which is my main argument against the dissolution of the union, separating the UK truly on political lines would not be practical. Which is why having Mayors is a good idea in theory. The problem, as always, is the candidates and the voters. The candidates for being terrible and the voters for voting for them
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Apr 6, 2015 13:32
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Taear posted:It seems beyond insane that sharing a platform with the Tories to stop the union from breaking up has completely ruined Labour's election chances in Scotland, I can't quite get it into my brain. I don't think it's as simple as that, I'd say the SNP's success has come from two areas, disillusioned liberals and disengaged Labour voters. The former's influence was seen in the 2011 election with the mass defection of the Lib Dem vote to them. Those were people who dislike the big two parties, for various reasons, but if a standard stop the Tories campaign wouldn't work to convince them to vote Labour in years before, it wasn't going to work in 2011, at least as long as there was some other alternative in the running, which is (partly, but not solely) why the SNP won their majority. Then in the referendum, Labour spent too much time talking like the Yes campaign was an SNP vehicle, while the Yes campaign talked about offering big changes, which sounds pretty appealing when the world around you looks really loving poo poo, as it does in those traditional labour heartlands. I don't think it matters that Labour shared a campaign with the conservatives. What I think matters is that Labour tried to convince Scotland that voting SNP was the same thing as voting for independence and succeeded completely, and tried to convince their own voters that the She's ideas were crazy, and succeeded only in convincing them that their ideas were different. Combine the two and the message people heard from Labour was "if you want change, you are an SNP voter." Blaming it on Tories in Better Together (something both sides do) lets Labour off too lightly. They are losing because they have lost credibility as the party of change.
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Apr 6, 2015 13:59
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Taear posted:This is silly though - I live in manchester and we don't support the tory policies either, but they won the national vote (in theory) so we haven't got a choice. The better solution is independence for the south east of England.
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Apr 6, 2015 14:05
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OwlFancier posted:Got any suggestions?
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Apr 6, 2015 14:18
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forkboy84 posted:The better solution is independence for the south east of England. Well good news, that's what the tories are planning!
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Apr 6, 2015 14:19
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Taear posted:This is silly though - I live in manchester and we don't support the tory policies either, but they won the national vote (in theory) so we haven't got a choice. There is an ethnic factor that they dare not speak. Yet. If things get more heated, a Tory win this may for instance, I expect the rhetoric may get ugly.
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Apr 6, 2015 14:26
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forkboy84 posted:The better solution is independence for the south east of England. It was so annoying to see the pro-independence people on Twitter treating it like the English were a monolithic bloc who were all super right wing and Scotland could never get on with them ever.
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Apr 6, 2015 14:38
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Taear posted:It was so annoying to see the pro-independence people on Twitter treating it like the English were a monolithic bloc who were all super right wing and Scotland could never get on with them ever. Aw, did the nasty Jocks hurt your feelings?
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Apr 6, 2015 14:42
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Coohoolin posted:Aw, did the nasty Jocks hurt your feelings? I'm pretty sure that's the attitude Taear is talking about.
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Apr 6, 2015 14:52
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Scotland is a country in it's own right so you can't really compare it with cherry-picked areas of England not having an influence on Westminster.
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Apr 6, 2015 14:54
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Reveilled posted:
According to today's Telegraph, the parties are doubling down on this strategy: quote:'In Perth, a group of young activists led by Andrew Skinner, a Labour supporter from Glasgow, has been leafleting the Labour stronghold of North Muirton, trying to persuade people to vote Tory. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11516292/How-the-tactical-voting-tables-stand.html Even better, the Telegraph frames this homogenization of the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour as a positive for politics.
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Apr 6, 2015 14:56
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Aromatic Stretch posted:Scotland is a country in it's own right so you can't really compare it with cherry-picked areas of England not having an influence on Westminster. Only if you cite historical precedent, and if you cite historical precedent, I would be quite happy to try to resurrect the Kingdom of Northumberland.
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Apr 6, 2015 14:57
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The SNP should really open up the independence bid to the North of England, too.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:05
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I am a loyal subject of Rome.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:05
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I personally think at least part of the appeal of Scottish independence is the way it's been sold almost as a movement that can detach Scotland from the post-financial crash world rather than from the UK as such. The fact that an independent Scotland would be subject to international forces in terms of both finance and sovereignty rarely seems to come up, and I think that's at least partially because they impose some limits on the extent to which escape is possible for Scotland. A lot of pro-Yes stuff seemed backward rather than forward looking to me because of that; there seemed to be a temptation to wish problems away through positive thinking rather than attempt to confront them full on. To be honest, though, I sort of feel like that describes most leftism I encounter at the moment; it seems so locally focused as to have nothing to say about international forces, despite those forces being more influential on local conditions than the things that are actually local themselves.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:09
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The Kingdom of Strathclyde should split off from the rest of Scotland IMO.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:14
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vegetables posted:I personally think at least part of the appeal of Scottish independence is the way it's been sold almost as a movement that can detach Scotland from the post-financial crash world rather than from the UK as such. The fact that an independent Scotland would be subject to international forces in terms of both finance and sovereignty rarely seems to come up, and I think that's at least partially because they impose some limits on the extent to which escape is possible for Scotland. A lot of pro-Yes stuff seemed backward rather than forward looking to me because of that; there seemed to be a temptation to wish problems away through positive thinking rather than attempt to confront them full on. To be honest, though, I sort of feel like that describes most leftism I encounter at the moment; it seems so locally focused as to have nothing to say about international forces, despite those forces being more influential on local conditions than the things that are actually local themselves. Thinking like that is why Labour's support is collapsing. The appeal is so popular because it's based on hope for the future: that the country will move to a Scandinavian model and away from the pervasive American neo-liberalism that's infecting Westminster. poo poo like the TTIP is the stick, re-nationalizing stuff that's under new threat is the carrot.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:14
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The Supreme Court posted:The SNP should really open up the independence bid to the North of England, too. Some more Correct thinking lefties would be welcome, but gently caress off if you think we'd accept Middlesborough.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:20
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Oberleutnant posted:I dunno why the scots are so uppity for independence we already gave them their own little parliament Scots, of course, aren't uppity for independence. There was a referendum a few months ago in which Scots solidly voted against independence, and a yougov poll released today says the Scots are still against independence. The SNP have been very relentless in pushing the idea that they are the Scottish party and the other parties are One thing I did notice during the referendum is that a lot of independence supporters took for granted the idea that left of centre ideals and social justice etc were self evidently and obviously nationalist ideals and if you believed in those you had to support yes, and if you didn't support yes obviously you were against liberalism and socialism and anything left of centre. Hence the rage, from that quarter at least, at Labour (but not just Labour - the Guardian, the BBC especially etc all got hate for betraying Scotland on behalf of the Tories.) All the independence supporters on this forum are thankfully more sensible, but a good example of this mind set is Daft Limmy's twitter feed during the referendum. Most of his tweets were about how no supporters love foodbanks and Trident, and included gems like "if you vote no you can never complain about Westminster ever again.". Of course it doesn't make sense, but a lot of people do genuinely seem to think like that. Of course, this meant that yes supporters had to explain why most Scots were Trident and foodbank loving Tories, which is why the Vow got so exaggerated so that the stabbed in the back narrative could be easily applied. But why this meant Labour got so screwed? I'm still not sure. I suspected it was because before the referendum Labour were pretty invisible - under the awkward Miliband leadership nationwide and the genuinely awful Johan Lamont leadership in Scotland. The political landscape in Scotland may have appeared to be a noisy and obnoxious Tory leadership in London and a noisy 'opposition' SNP leadership in Edinburgh. When Labour finally did reappear in the national media during the referendum, perhaps it did appear to some like they were fighting for the Tories? The interminable length of the referendum campaign certainly didn't help and probably let these narratives take root.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:26
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vegetables posted:I personally think at least part of the appeal of Scottish independence is the way it's been sold almost as a movement that can detach Scotland from the post-financial crash world rather than from the UK as such. The fact that an independent Scotland would be subject to international forces in terms of both finance and sovereignty rarely seems to come up, and I think that's at least partially because they impose some limits on the extent to which escape is possible for Scotland. A lot of pro-Yes stuff seemed backward rather than forward looking to me because of that; there seemed to be a temptation to wish problems away through positive thinking rather than attempt to confront them full on. To be honest, though, I sort of feel like that describes most leftism I encounter at the moment; it seems so locally focused as to have nothing to say about international forces, despite those forces being more influential on local conditions than the things that are actually local themselves. There were posts in the Independence thread which really were like "do we really need to talk about all the economic stuff again? It's so boring" (that's a paraphrase but it's a very close one). All the Yes voters wanted to move the conversation to how hopeful a new Scotland would be, keeping it on the philosophical level of self-determinism. We can worry about bond rates and the effects of corporation tax afterwards, just think how amazing the street parties will be. This is why it was always my posiition that independence isn't wrong by its very nature, but the SNP's 2014 plan for independence was really pretty flimsy and would have worked out worse for most people in Scotland. Also, the Yes campaign definitely made a distinct shift to "let's get away from the Tories" in the final stretch of the campaign. Over and over we heard that it was about the positive case for independence, but "it's nothing to do with England" stance disappeared in the last 3-4 months and the campaign went far more negative. Again, that's probably what I would have done too if I was running a political campaign, but there was certainly no high ground from Yes by the end. Hoops fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 15:30
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Is there still a separate Scots independence thread?
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Apr 6, 2015 15:33
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A lot of people voted No assuming there'd be some kind of effort to address the problems raised by the drive for independence, and when it took only a few hours or whatever for Scotland to be put back in its box it pissed off a lot of people. Also a lot of No voters didn't care about politics usually but were told they'd lose their pensions or some other rubbish and after the 18th went back to being invisible ineffective presences in the Scottish political landscape. It didn't help that Labour spent the referendum effectively defending austerity and cuts rather than proposing a proper left-wing model for the UK, which is why they're (rightly so, IMO) dismissed as being "Red Tories" now. Cerv posted:Is there still a separate Scots independence thread? Yep. It's... not that good. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3678161
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Apr 6, 2015 15:34
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Alot of people voted yes on the promise of a utopia funded by oil whose price collapsed shortly after the election
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Apr 6, 2015 15:36
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We also need to remember the context that 'the vow' was made in (lets remember, the vow was a promise of 1) more devolution and 2) continued Barnett formula.) - there was a lot of talk by yes supporters that if Scotland voted no it was going to be 'monstered' by Westminster for daring to have the referendum, that there would never be another referendum allowed, and likely that the Scottish parliament would be abolished. This was presented as self evidently going to happen by many. (again, a good place to see this is Daft Limmy's twitter feed)
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Apr 6, 2015 15:44
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mediadave posted:We also need to remember the context that 'the vow' was made in (lets remember, the vow was a promise of 1) more devolution and 2) continued Barnett formula.) - there was a lot of talk by yes supporters that if Scotland voted no it was going to be 'monstered' by Westminster for daring to have the referendum, that there would never be another referendum allowed, and likely that the Scottish parliament would be abolished. This was presented as self evidently going to happen by many. (again, a good place to see this is Daft Limmy's twitter feed) Eh, it was more like "if we vote No we're telling Westminster we don't care what they do to us" so no one should really have been surprised about Call Me Dave's immediate volte-face and EVEL.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:46
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To the complete surprise of all, the NSPCC stats quoted for children addicted to porn are total bollocks.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:47
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did they really try to claim that 12% of 12 year olds have been in child porn?
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Apr 6, 2015 15:49
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ThomasPaine posted:YouGov now has a cool little tool you can use to search polling stats by constituency. Also has predicted forecasts for May and (best of all) lets you compare demographic trends/social attitudes of respondents in each area. Glasgow, for example, is left wing by Scottish standards and, by UK standards, is almost off the scale. Quite good fun if you have a bit of time to kill Apparent,y Dundee East is to the right of Scotland as a whole, but left of the UK. That's a really interesting site, I could spend hours just browsing through the different categories and breakdowns.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:49
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Daft Limmy is a huge wind-up so I wouldn't really cite him as an example of anything
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Apr 6, 2015 15:49
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Coohoolin posted:it was more like "if we vote No we're telling Westminster we don't care what they do to us" Yes, that's a good example of the scaremongering that was being presented in the final months.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:50
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PiCroft posted:Apparent,y Dundee East is to the right of Scotland as a whole, but left of the UK. Yeah it's cool, I was surprised to find out Aberdeen North is actually going SNP (I was expecting Labour) and that it's still left-wing by Scottish standards and super left-wing by UK standards. A lot of the time it feels like I'm missing out on all the cool Scottish leftism by not living in Glasgow. mediadave posted:Yes, that's a good example of the scaremongering that was being presented in the final months. Seems pretty accurate to me. That's why the SNP got a huge surge, to make sure Westminster wouldn't treat us the way they want to.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:50
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Gum posted:did they really try to claim that 12% of 12 year olds have been in child porn? No. The claim was that 12% of 12 year olds are addicted to watching porn.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:50
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mediadave posted:We also need to remember the context that 'the vow' was made in (lets remember, the vow was a promise of 1) more devolution and 2) continued Barnett formula.) - there was a lot of talk by yes supporters that if Scotland voted no it was going to be 'monstered' by Westminster for daring to have the referendum, that there would never be another referendum allowed, and likely that the Scottish parliament would be abolished. This was presented as self evidently going to happen by many. (again, a good place to see this is Daft Limmy's twitter feed) Coohoolin is right that literally hours after the result it was straight on to "okay that conversation's over, let's talk about English votes for English laws". Which was dumb as poo poo and didn't help matters at all. But it still doesn't mean that the plan of "let's keep the pound maybe, and stay in the EU maybe, and oil will go up maybe, and we'll figure the rest out as we come to it after we haven't really thought about it yet" style of declaring secession was ever the right move.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:51
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Hoops posted:I'm can't agree with all of this bit. I don't remember any claim ever that the Scottish parliament would be affected by a No vote, and Limmy laid everything on thick in order to wind people up, because that's what his comedy is like. UKIP candidates were running in Scotland on the platform of abolishing the Scottish parliament (brilliant, ey?) but that's about it. Although some Tories (and Lib Dems I think?) did enjoy putting their feet in their mouths by reminding us that technically, Holyrood can be overruled or abolished by Westminster whenever.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:53
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Acaila posted:Some more Correct thinking lefties would be welcome, but gently caress off if you think we'd accept Middlesborough. Oh come on we're winning the poo poo out of the teenage pregnancy leagues. I'd like to see you do better. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 15:56
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Hoops posted:I'm can't agree with all of this bit. I don't remember any claim ever that the Scottish parliament would be affected by a No vote, and Limmy laid everything on thick in order to wind people up, because that's what his comedy is like. I guess I was having conversations with different people, and Daft Limmy was definitely not doing comedy in those tweets, but anyway... I agree there should be (and can be) a movement to reform Westminster, and bring in a federalised UK (my own personal 'end goal' for the UK). Preferably the SNP and the progressive coalition that Nicola Sturgeon is allegedly wanting to form would be a driving block for this. mediadave fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 15:58
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hookerbot 5000 posted:No. The claim was that 12% of 12 year olds are addicted to watching porn. from the article: Unfortunately, when the NSPCC sent out a press release saying that one in ten 12 year olds are addicted to porn and 12% have been part of a sexually explicit video, dozens of journalists appear to have simply played along – despite there being no report or explanation of where the figures came from.
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Apr 6, 2015 15:58
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