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Stubb Dogg posted:State spending has doubled from 1990 which was the high point before the great recession. But our GDP has also doubled since then and state spending is slightly under 30% of GDP. During 90's recession spending climbed up due to unemployement while GDP crashed and those ratios were closer to 40%. Yes and yes and no. Alas, even if we didn't have problems with demographics, we'd still have problems with available jobs especially on the private sector (which in the end funds the public sector). If, say, 500 000 25 year olds dropped from the sky tomorrow to "fix" our demographics, or the elderly suddenly were rejuvenated by black magic and half of them became 30 again we'd still be in a hole because there would be nothing productive for them to do in the current economy. The no? There is a poo poo ton to slash without touching health care or education and other basic services. The left wing narrative has been since the slow recession started that any cuts would directly lead to starving children and the elderly being left to rot in their own faeces (wait, that's already happening) but that's not exactly true. Jerry Cotton posted:I wonder if the Greens will ever figure out that if they want to become a big party they have to fully embrace green energy, i.e. nuclear power? No. Being anti-nuke is a deeply ideological stance with most of them; you can't change the way they think about it. It's like ummm a religion. Last time I talked, which was yesterday, with a greenish (sometimes leftist) voter she was categorically against nuclear power because 1) a terrist might blow up a plant 2) climate change can cause tsunamis and earthquakes in Finland 3) anything can happen, you can't know, so nucular bad! Just an anecdote, but shows you can't reason with a person like that when it comes to nuclear. She's otherwise pretty smart too.
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Apr 20, 2015 10:37
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Ligur posted:There is a poo poo ton to slash without touching health care or education and other basic services. The left wing narrative has been since the slow recession started that any cuts would directly lead to starving children and the elderly being left to rot in their own faeces (wait, that's already happening) but that's not exactly true. Biggest is SOTE-reform but merging municipalities or practically taking away all of their budgeting power? Not going to happen. Slashing agricultural subsidies? No loving way. Corporate subsidies? Well that's 2B right there but good luck with that.
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Apr 20, 2015 10:56
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OTOH we could try some good old fashioned keynesian stimulus instead.
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Apr 20, 2015 11:36
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Stealing dis' from Hesari, let's find those 6B in cuts asked by Treasury while being politically acceptable to the members of gov?
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Apr 20, 2015 12:32
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Nice chart.Stubb Dogg posted:... while being politically acceptable to the members of gov? *grimaces in pain*
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Apr 20, 2015 12:38
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Hmm, it's kind of weird to say the Left Alliance failed because it didn't pander to old men when the votes were raked in by young liberal radical women? Most of the party isn't like that, its more like that cow face that Arhinmäki likes to make:  Pretty much sums it up.
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Apr 20, 2015 12:48
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Stubb Dogg posted:Stealing dis' from Hesari, let's find those 6B in cuts asked by Treasury while being politically acceptable to the members of gov? That's actually pretty interesting and pretty much any labeled thread is basically irrelevant compared to the whole thing.
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Apr 20, 2015 12:51
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His Divine Shadow posted:OTOH we could try some good old fashioned keynesian stimulus instead. Cuts are actually really really expensive and don't reduce the shortfall much because they lead to less domestic demand and thus less tax income. Whereas expanding the economy would boost tax gains and reduce the percentage of the DEBT compared to GDP, since that's the figure everyone seems to care about. And yeah, kepu is basically the last party you want if you want to take care of the hallintohimmeli so... juustohöylä and tax relief with "dynamic benefits", here we go again.
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Apr 20, 2015 12:55
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This dude was elected, btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP55K0Kz31o
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Apr 20, 2015 13:00
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See the economy is like a prostate, it should be stimulated so Finland can blow its wad (of cash, you dirty perv) all over its people. Austerity is like failed prostate surgery that leaves the
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Apr 20, 2015 13:00
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His Divine Shadow posted:See the economy is like a prostate, it should be stimulated so Finland can blow its wad (of cash, you dirty perv) all over its people. That's a bizarrely accurate analogy. Now imagine Timo Soini stabbing you in the butt with a scalpel -- forever.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:05
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That's pretty arousing
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Apr 20, 2015 13:11
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Stubb Dogg posted:Stealing dis' from Hesari, let's find those 6B in cuts asked by Treasury while being politically acceptable to the members of gov? Yes, the old two-headed snake of "we can't cut from education and welfare, those are untouchable" and "there's nothing to be gained from cutting something that is irrelevant to the whole". Your username and avatar are hilarious, but maybe it would be time to update them with something Cheek related? Oldsmobile posted:Hmm, it's kind of weird to say the Left Alliance failed because it didn't pander to old men when the votes were raked in by young liberal radical women? Most of the party isn't like that, its more like that cow face that Arhinmäki likes to make: I agree with you that Arhinmäki is uncharismatic as gently caress, but regardless of how your personal social circle might vote, the stats (Muutosvaalit 2011 is the study that I like to refer to) are completely unambiguous about LA losing its old supporters faster than it is gaining new young ones.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:13
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The way I see it, LA is a party for young city people, SDP is a hollow shell trying to become KOK-lite. So whats left for a leftist-ish average worker in bumfuck Finland to vote for? Thats where TF saw it's opening. I figure with a less screwed up SDP, TF could have been prevented from growing so large in the first place.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:18
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SDP has been a slightly less criminal urban Kepu for years now.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:20
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vuohi posted:I agree with you that Arhinmäki is uncharismatic as gently caress, but regardless of how your personal social circle might vote, the stats (Muutosvaalit 2011 is the study that I like to refer to) are completely unambiguous about LA losing its old supporters faster than it is gaining new young ones. No, I totally agree with that assessment. But Li gets good support in areas with old supporters of the Left (she has good support everywhere). She's not the problem here. The problem is the Ahrinmäki-ites who run the party like it's some kind of smaller version of the Center party. Arhinmäki is not like Li and neither is the party. This is the party: 
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Apr 20, 2015 13:24
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Oldsmobile posted:No, I totally agree with that assessment. But Li gets good support in areas with old supporters of the Left (she has good support everywhere). She's not the problem here. The problem is the Ahrinmäki-ites who run the party like it's some kind of smaller version of the Center party. Arhinmäki is not like Li and neither is the party. He has a sports corporation tattoo which means he's dumb as all gently caress.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:26
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His Divine Shadow posted:The way I see it, LA is a party for young city people, SDP is a hollow shell trying to become KOK-lite. So whats left for a leftist-ish average worker in bumfuck Finland to vote for? Thats where TF saw it's opening. I figure with a less screwed up SDP, TF could have been prevented from growing so large in the first place. This is why I'm so intrigued to see how TF's economic policy actually shakes out in practice. I've long suspected that it's going to look indistinguishable from the oikeistodemari line of thinking, except even more of an emphasis on smokestack industry employees. A lot of the people poached from LA and SDP (like Leena Lähihoitaja) are going to be upset once the first budgets roll in.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:28
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Oldsmobile posted:No, I totally agree with that assessment. But Li gets good support in areas with old supporters of the Left (she has good support everywhere). She's not the problem here. The problem is the Ahrinmäki-ites who run the party like it's some kind of smaller version of the Center party. Arhinmäki is not like Li and neither is the party. I definitely agree that there are many points in favour of making Andersson the chair right now. She could be the epitome of a fresh new face, compared to any other party too. For such young person she seems very experienced. Success couldn't be guaranteed of course, but I would stand by this temporal assessment even if she failed.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:31
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Like I said earlier, V appeals more to unemployed people and people who care really strongly about some social issues these days, not "workers" (using quotations since I mean workers as in the old communist power base, low income workers) "Workers" in Finland aren't left wing And TF gets their votes by focusing on social issues they actually care about like immigrants, pakkoruotsi and the EU Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 13:32
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Geriatric Pirate posted:"Workers" in Finland aren't left wing That depends strongly on where in Finland you are. In the district where Andersson was elected, the ratio of leijonariipuses to Metalli 49 stickers on helmets is still very much in the Left's favour.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:35
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Left-wingness notwithstanding they sure as hell are conservative and that's probably a big factor in PS's appeal, so it remains to be seen if it's important enough for them to sell out any economic principles like the American working class has been doing.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:37
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Like I said earlier, V appeals more to unemployed people and people who care really strongly about some social issues these days, not "workers" (using quotations since I mean workers as in the old communist power base, low income workers) Old people are different. There is a fierce SDP/LA rivalry at my work. Our LA-affiliated steward got ousted two years ago after losing a hopeless battle against inevitable downsizing. The campaign was rumored to have been extremely dirty too, with personal threats and everything. Probably needless to say that I want to stay out of all that nonsense even though lol I have been a paying SAK member for almost ten years now.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:39
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His Divine Shadow posted:The way I see it, LA is a party for young city people I thought young city people voted for the Greens? As for LA, it's something of a mystery to me why they fell on their faces this time. Perhaps trying to reach for voters outside their usual bases proved fruitless. Or perhaps they're still in the middle of a generational transition out from their commie roots to a more modern-day zero-contract proletarian party. Who knows. Or maybe they just didn't buy Paavo Arhinmäki's soccer-following-working-man schtick. (I still like him.)
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Apr 20, 2015 13:43
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vuohi posted:I definitely agree that there are many points in favour of making Andersson the chair right now. She could be the epitome of a fresh new face, compared to any other party too. For such young person she seems very experienced. Success couldn't be guaranteed of course, but I would stand by this temporal assessment even if she failed. She first has to announce her intentions first. Jari Myllykoski has already announced he's going to challenge Arhinmäki for the seat. He thinks the party is too "commonly green" - whatever that means.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:47
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Rexroom posted:I thought young city people voted for the Greens? Well I didn't say they had exclusive rights to it.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:48
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Rexroom posted:Jari Myllykoski has already announced he's going to challenge Arhinmäki for the seat. holy loving 
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Apr 20, 2015 13:50
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Oldsmobile posted:This is the party: I'm very ignorant to politics for the most part so I have to ask: When did Arhinmäki become the poster boy for his party? How did that happen? Is there no one else? Was there someone else before him who was even worse? He has zero charisma and every time I've seen him say or do something he comes off as a juvenile dumb shithead. Like making these stupid "Heh... I sure owned him" sort of tweets/remarks at people .
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Apr 20, 2015 13:52
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One theory about the left losing it's original base, then not gaining that much new support from the population on average is that the modern left is mostly concerned about identity politics: the LGBT movement, feminism, multiculturalism, globalism, the welfare of the Bulgarian Roma and so on. Your old school karvaperse satamatyöläinen is not very interested in these things. TBH your average Finn probably neither. Also this is why all the new vassari voters are 25 year old humanist girls intentionally dressed in shabby clothes, wearing no make-up, and the guys seem to be testosterone deficient pasty faced geeks doing courses on women's studies (while not reading Marx). To give you a bit of a hyperbole. SDP? Like already said is a special interest party for 50+ year old people trying to hold on to what benefits they have had in the past and after that spazzing around trying to figure out what went wrong. So LOL @ left.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:55
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Teuvo's hangover hasn't prevented him from giving an interview this morning. He truly is the "kansanmies" we deserve.
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Apr 20, 2015 14:11
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Zilkin posted:Teuvo's hangover hasn't prevented him from giving an interview this morning. He truly is the "kansanmies" we deserve. I kinda like this interview. Can't put my finger on it, but I guess it's how he doesn't give a poo poo and just says what he thinks. Whether you agree or disagree on his sentiments is a different story. He is the ultimate "kansanmies".
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Apr 20, 2015 14:24
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Swedish democracy  I love it how he calls Finns "cowards" after they were too scared to even listen what these folks with 700k votes have to say or to include them in the parliamentary process.
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Apr 20, 2015 14:29
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Ihmiset pelkäävät tommosta helvetin uskontoa, jossa tapetaan vaan ja murhataan. Ei tämä ole mikään beduiinien maa. 
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Apr 20, 2015 14:38
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Ligur posted:One theory about the left losing it's original base, then not gaining that much new support from the population on average is that the modern left is mostly concerned about identity politics: the LGBT movement, feminism, multiculturalism, globalism, the welfare of the Bulgarian Roma and so on. Isn't it the other way around, and they're concerned with those things because they don't hold appeal to workers. e: Thinking about it, those are the same things. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 14:38
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Ligur posted:Swedish democracy Swedes still fail to understand why political isolation is a stupid loving idea in a representative democracy and only makes things worse.
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Apr 20, 2015 14:40
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Zilkin posted:Teuvo's hangover hasn't prevented him from giving an interview this morning. He truly is the "kansanmies" we deserve. When it became clear that he was re-elected, I joked to my GF that maybe Teuvo will do an encore on his 2011 minaret call and maybe say "neekeriukko" again. Turns out the joke was on me. This guy probably didn't expect to be quoted here, or is unaware about how Finns tend to feel about advice from Sweden.
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Apr 20, 2015 14:42
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edit not quote asdfasdfga
Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 14:47
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It took a while but finally my SoMe feed is also full of people who plan to immediately relocate to another country  Double Bill posted:Swedes still fail to understand why political isolation is a stupid loving idea in a representative democracy and only makes things worse. I have a GREAT idea!!!!1 Go post this sentiment to the ScanPol thread  vuohi posted:When it became clear that he was re-elected, I joked to my GF that maybe Teuvo will do an encore on his 2011 minaret call and maybe say "neekeriukko" again. Love it. quote:This guy probably didn't expect to be quoted here, or is unaware about how Finns tend to feel about advice from Sweden. Aftonbladet also gives is much needed advice! Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 14:49
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Thank you Sweden I now want persus in government
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Apr 20, 2015 14:51
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Double Bill posted:Swedes still fail to understand why political isolation is a stupid loving idea in a representative democracy and only makes things worse. I actually read that as saying isolating a party is the cowardly thing because that made way more sense to me.
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Apr 20, 2015 14:57
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