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I love everything about Towerclimb conceptually. Seems like it's taking a very long time to get it to something close to final though.
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Apr 25, 2015 23:19
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StrixNebulosa posted:I'd be interested in trying the Pit, if you still have it. Sure do. Add me on steam (/7hm) Paranautical Activity is as bad as the screenshots, which is to say it is the same as every other FPS roguelike but with worse graphics. I have to give them credit - they were the first of the FPS roguelikes to hit release (shortly before Tower of Guns). That's the only reason anyone bothered with them at all. Fundamentally it's not worse than other FPS roguelikes though. Big empty rooms, projectile hell, none of the strategy and tactics from actual roguelikes, none of the level design of actual old-school FPSs. Oblige is still the best FPS roguelike by a huge margin. ... Towerclimb was a ton of fun last time I played it, but I'm waiting for it to hit a full release to go back to it. I'm just happy he's still working on it.
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Apr 25, 2015 23:39
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victrix posted:Risk of Rain, but it's not 'heavy' roguelike. Still a great game though. This is one of my alltime favorite soft roguelikes. I really wish there were more games like this and Rogue Legacy. But seriously, 45 minutes in Risk of Rain goes from fun to hilarious everything dying at a perfect pace for me. I tried Necrodancer but I didn't like the whole rhythm part of the game.
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Apr 25, 2015 23:51
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Jordan7hm posted:Sure do. Add me on steam (/7hm) Done and done. I'm /zekkass there. A FPS roguelike feels like it's fundamentally unworkable - maybe an FPS with roguelike elements, but...the format seems so part and parcel to the genre.
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Apr 26, 2015 00:00
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StrixNebulosa posted:A FPS roguelike feels like it's fundamentally unworkable - maybe an FPS with roguelike elements, but...the format seems so part and parcel to the genre. Shooter roguelikes exist (c.f. Teleglitch), so what is it about FP in specific that conflicts with roguelike sensibilities? I mean, I admit I've yet to see an FPS roguelike that I thought really worked well (Tower of Guns is the best and it's still not really that great), but that doesn't convince me that the two genres just can't mesh.
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Apr 26, 2015 00:11
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The new quests in One Way Heroics are great. They're harder than the original "beat the dark lord" one. Just beat the force knight quest and it took absolutely everything I had to pull it off and I only managed it about one turn from death. Exciting stuff.
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Apr 26, 2015 00:13
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For me, an FPS lives and dies by its level design. Handcrafted level design doesn't have to be, but can be so much better than randomly generated level design. I can have fun with an FPS that has poo poo level design, but only for a short period of time. I actually think that this is also true of roguelikes - my favorite roguelike by far, DCSS, has the opportunity for engaging level design because of the vault system. If not for the vault system the level design would be significantly worse, and I would probably like it significantly less. This is also true of Spelunky. Prefabs are the way to go for spricing up randomly generated level design, as long as you can amass a huge number of them. Most games that use prefabs just don't have enough of the drat things, so you end up seeing the same setpiece over and over again.
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Apr 26, 2015 00:17
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Shooter roguelikes exist (c.f. Teleglitch), so what is it about FP in specific that conflicts with roguelike sensibilities? I mean, I admit I've yet to see an FPS roguelike that I thought really worked well (Tower of Guns is the best and it's still not really that great), but that doesn't convince me that the two genres just can't mesh. Roguelikes, afaik, are defined by grid-based, turn-based gameplay (and permadeath and an inventory system, etc) and I don't see how you could do a first-person roguelike without getting something like Wizardry, or a single-character Etrian Odyssey - but to my point: I don't see how you can do a roguelike without getting away from the turn-based nature of combat. I could be wrong, though! Crypt of the Necrodancer (I haven't played this yet) seems to be pushing at those boundaries, but it's still turn-based.
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Apr 26, 2015 00:32
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I agree with you that roguelikes are turn-based/grid based, but many many people do not and it's kind of a nebulous definition(in use, anyways).
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Apr 26, 2015 00:37
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Oh god please don't do the whole circular "what is/isn't a roguelike" thing for the thousandth time.
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Apr 26, 2015 00:55
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Sheeeeesh, Aria's final boss in Necrodancer is hard as balls.
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Apr 26, 2015 01:06
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Million Ghosts posted:Oh god please don't do the whole circular "what is/isn't a roguelike" thing for the thousandth time. Okay, fair enough! Jordan7hm, thanks for the Pit - I'm enjoying it so far, though I'm probably focusing too much on blades as opposed to my guns. I have this horrible affliction against running out of ammo, so - is that going to be a huge concern in this game? EDIT: I've run out of pistol ammo, so yes, it is going to be a problem. Time to make every shot count, eep. StrixNebulosa fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Apr 26, 2015 |
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Apr 26, 2015 01:06
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StrixNebulosa posted:Roguelikes, afaik, are defined by grid-based, turn-based gameplay (and permadeath and an inventory system, etc) and I don't see how you could do a first-person roguelike without getting something like Wizardry, or a single-character Etrian Odyssey - but to my point: I don't see how you can do a roguelike without getting away from the turn-based nature of combat. Okay, can you think of a way to mesh FPSen with Procedural Death Labyrinths that wouldn't suck?
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Apr 26, 2015 01:52
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Okay, can you think of a way to mesh FPSen with Procedural Death Labyrinths that wouldn't suck? I'm not a game designer, but I'll give it a shot! Strangely enough, the closest analogues I'm thinking of at the moment are the Silent Hills. Limited inventory so you need to decide if you're going to fight this battle or run for another one, a fairly closed in environment, and death is very, very close. But mechanically speaking, a slowed down shooter in a dark environment - say enemies can't attack until they're in the light, or if they have ranged attacks they go slow enough that you could pinpoint where they come from - and level ups would net you better lighting, better weapons, more hitpoints. Unfortunately shooters can feel too corridor-y, but corridors are part and parcel of labyrinths, so work with those. I'm not the greatest fan of cover shooters, but - say the skillset/class you choose determines how fights happen? One class could generate cover that enemies would have to react to, another could be more of a run and gun-er. ... tl;dr I don't know. I don't know if there's a way to get the balance of roguelikes without making the FPS boring, or vise-versa.
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Apr 26, 2015 03:23
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Okay, can you think of a way to mesh FPSen with Procedural Death Labyrinths that wouldn't suck? I think it's possible. Every single FPS-Roguelike hybrid I've seen tries to the Doom-style gameplay for it's FPS part. I think that might be one of the biggest things that prevent FPS-Roguelike hybrids from being enough of a roguelike-like. What if you don't do that and go the opposite way instead? For example Crypt of the Necrodancer is an objectively good real-time roguelike and one of the ways it achieves that is by having the gameplay being slow enough to make it possible to make meaningful decisions, which is a life-blood of any roguelike. So maybe a much slower FPS gameplay, where every action has to be less frantic and more purposeful, would fit this kind of hybrid better? Now if you go from there I think it should possible to design a game that works in a similar way to more conventional roguelikes. StrixNebulosa posted:I'm not a game designer, but I'll give it a shot! I totally started writing my post first.
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Apr 26, 2015 03:30
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Jack Trades posted:I think it's possible. Uh-huh. Actually, a cover-shooter FPS comes to mind - the XCOM spin-off, the Bureau. It has a feature where you have teammates, and you can slow time down and give them orders / activate skills. Perhaps a FPS-roguelike with something similar, where control over time features heavily into how it plays?
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Apr 26, 2015 03:37
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The only FPSPDL I have actually enjoyed is space beast alien terror or whatever its called.Haven't played Oblige, to be fair.
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Apr 26, 2015 03:52
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Broken Cog posted:Sheeeeesh, Aria's final boss in Necrodancer is hard as balls. How exactly did you get past even Zone 4 in the first place? Aria demands almost ludicrous precision and situational awareness.
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Apr 26, 2015 04:07
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Spire by the DustForce guys looks like it might get the whole FPS-roguelike right, IMO. Check out some of the vids on their site. http://hitboxteam.com/mystery-and-mastery
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Apr 26, 2015 04:08
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drat, One Way Heroics is crazy addicting. I'm still getting started but I just had my first kill on the demon king on Walk in the Park. I've been messing around with the different classes. Hunter is interesting and puts you at an advantage in the field but you're at a huge disadvantage in dungeons, especially since bows cant damage walls. Swordmaster is pretty fun but I find myself getting cocky and dying a lot. Oh, and I feel awful that I can't keep my doggy companion alive. I'm a terrible hero 
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Apr 26, 2015 04:50
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Roluth posted:How exactly did you get past even Zone 4 in the first place? Aria demands almost ludicrous precision and situational awareness. It took a LOT of tries. Tried to not spend more time than I had to on each floor, and brought a scroll of freezing to the boss fight. Zones 3 through 1 are much easier in comparison.
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Apr 26, 2015 04:56
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Ah Map posted:The only FPSPDL I have actually enjoyed is space beast alien terror or whatever its called.Haven't played Oblige, to be fair. OBLIGE is a random map generator for Doom that's been around in some form for at least 15 years. The generation algorithm it uses it tunable as gently caress so you can fiddle with dozens of sliders to tweak just what sort of mess it generates. It used to support Wolf3d, Quake and Quake 2 maps but has since narrowed its focus to just Doom engine games. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Apr 26, 2015 |
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Apr 26, 2015 05:00
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I got Crypt of the Necrodancer today and it's basically amazing as hell. I've already reached Zone 4, but it's a huge unforgiving shitstorm, so I have yet to make it through. I haven't even tried any of the other characters yet! The singing shopkeeper is glorious  Is there a way to acquire a standalone version of the soundtrack that is entirely accompanied by his singing? Because I want that.
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Apr 26, 2015 05:48
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Angry Diplomat posted:The singing shopkeeper is glorious Quick Youtube search for 'Necrodancer singing shopkeeper' says YES. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JkOnC-dJ1E
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Apr 26, 2015 05:53
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Okay, can you think of a way to mesh FPSen with Procedural Death Labyrinths that wouldn't suck? I would start and end with a horde mode shooter. Hell, Warframe already checks many of the boxes (it's notably missing perma-death and some semblance of turns) and it's a (terrible) game that people have 1000s of hours in. Randomly generated levels are there, made of handcrafted rooms linked together. Random elite enemies and character progression are present. It's tuned for a F2P experience rather than a rogue-like one, but I think the system in play is similar to what you'd get the best results from. Going from an ARPG (I'm thinking original Diablo as the inspiration) to a top-down shooter isn't hard. Basically if you balanced the game Diablo around the Rogue or Sorcerer class instead of the Warrior you'd have it. So then the question becomes, "What does switching to a first person perspective bring to the table?" As I see it there's basically three options. First person perspectives can provide a particular flavor of immersion. First person shooters can take advantage of a third axis in ways that top-down shooters struggle with. Finally, first person perspectives allow for longer sight-lines. Trying to build the assets for an immersive first person experience while satisfying rogue-like standards of level generation seems like a really good way to overreach how much developer time you can spend on the project. Going beyond nice graphics to immersive is a step that many AAA games try and fail. As well, I think the people who experience rogue-likes as immersive would not get that experience that in a first-person game, no matter how well the game was made. Making good use of the Y-axis is comparatively easier. At times it's as simple as large enemies towering over the battlefield, so the player can shoot them even behind a mob of chaff enemies. Flying enemies are another fairly simple option with a consequence, as flying allows all the enemies to see and attack the player without getting in each others' way. If you're using pre-built rooms in your level generation you can make use of the Y-axis there, without making your level generation algorithm any more complex. Longer sight lines will pretty naturally be used unless you're consciously trying to avoid it. Top down shooters have a really bad tendency of your viewable area fighting you as much as the enemies do. Because shots from offscreen are such bullshit, almost every fight has to take place within the size your monitor can display at once. You could get better use of this by allowing your generator to vary your arena sizes (or make pre-built arenas of various sizes). Speaking of arenas, horde shooters succeed or fail based on enemy design and wave design. While corridor shooters depend primarily on level design. Wave design is a comparatively simpler task, and a solid algorithm for wave design would make for a more reasonable target. Provide small drips of health and ammo between waves, and a larger payout upon completion of the arena. The player should have some ability to "tap out," forfeiting future rewards from that arena when it's getting to be too much. There's still a major component of rogue-like appeal missing. A bog standard horde shooter provides the player with many tactical considerations, but rogue-likes also have a strategic layer. At a minimum the player should have a choice between multiple arenas to travel to after completing one. The player should have or be able to acquire some (maybe not all) information on each of the arenas in terms of expected enemies, how much of the reward is payed out during the waves compared to the end, how large the total reward is, what size the arena is, and any other twists in store. The player should feel like they're making a choice, not picking a card to flip over.
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Apr 26, 2015 05:53
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The soundtrack does indeed have a whole set of variant soundtracks with the Merchant in them.
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Apr 26, 2015 05:59
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I would play the poo poo out of a Serious Sam with procedurally generated levels/enemy waves.
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Apr 26, 2015 06:41
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Picked up FTL in the sale and loving it. Just got my first victory despite blowing up at the same time as the flagship, that was pretty cool.
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Apr 26, 2015 08:10
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I really think that the best way to do a 'random' FPS is to go with a horde style game that has hand crafted map components, but mixes up the components and the enemy positioning (still hand crafted!) each time. I'm not entirely convinced that fully procedural generation can result in really compelling fps gameplay. A lot of this has to do with the quality (or lack thereof) of FPS enemy AI, and maps really need to be built in a certain way to take the best advantage of their behavior, player abilities, weapons, etcetcetc. But I absolutely think it's a genre (?) that has yet to get a real homerun attempt. Anyone who has wasted umpteen hours in UTRPG or Halo Firefight or Killing Floor or any number of arena/horde mode games knows the addictive nature is there, but I think it could be elevated. The problem with stuff like KF or Firefight is they tend to get 'solved' and then you're just going through the motions. A carefully curated selection of map components, enemies, items, and abilities could keep things fresh for a very long time indeed (that was actually a major strength of UTRPG, you could just download a shitload of community maps and play something unknown but handcrafted - pseudo random map gen! I actually think I had more fun with that than KF maps, because the UT maps were of much higher quality on average, a lot of the KF maps I played were horrible). If you really want to stretch, you could make some argument that multiplayer fps games are an expression of this (random opponents, new maps every year when you buy new dlc and cod titles!). ... also almost this entire post is predicated on the assumption that a challenging and difficult fight that you scrape through is a rewarding and enjoyable experience, and based on the success of mindless rift bashing in Diablo 3 and people who spend 1000 hours running the same ten Destiny maps, I'm inclined to think this is more my perfect random fps game than it is any significant percentage of gamers 
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Apr 26, 2015 08:37
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Tremis posted:Spire by the DustForce guys looks like it might get the whole FPS-roguelike right, IMO. Check out some of the vids on their site. Can't wait for the final version, looks good so far.
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Apr 26, 2015 08:40
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What is the opinion here of Nuclear Throne?
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Apr 26, 2015 09:15
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Hypha posted:What is the opinion here of Nuclear Throne? It's great. I really enjoy it, even though I feel like it's kind of short on content besides the huge arsenal of weapons you can get. It's not that easy either. The developpers are doing great work with it as well. It's got an insane amount of replayability. There's also a airhorn button on a character.
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Apr 26, 2015 09:22
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Do you still get blown up when the exit portal happens to appear right next to a car or whatever because that was pretty dumb
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Apr 26, 2015 09:25
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Jack Trades posted:I think it's possible. The clear-the-map modes in the Rainbow Six games are basically that, minus progression. Slow paced, ultra lethal, randomly placed enemies and permadeath.
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Apr 26, 2015 12:51
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The Armoured Commander Dev has started working on a the crew skill system. Here is a teaser he posted:
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Apr 26, 2015 18:45
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Hypha posted:What is the opinion here of Nuclear Throne?
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Apr 26, 2015 19:42
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Started playing Dungeonmans and am having a lovely time even though 3 of my 4 dudes died in the same dungeon, which I worry may be empowering the boss to no end (only one actually died to the boss). The last one died to 4 champion wizards and 1 ancestral king wizard after I stepped into a lovely sounding portal Have one question though: do academy improving items in the dungeon drop if you autoclear a dungeon? I'd assume no, but there's no way to really track which dungeons you've previously gotten items from
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Apr 26, 2015 19:55
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Bobo the Red posted:Have one question though: do academy improving items in the dungeon drop if you autoclear a dungeon? I'd assume no, but there's no way to really track which dungeons you've previously gotten items from
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Apr 26, 2015 20:29
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Bobo the Red posted:Started playing Dungeonmans and am having a lovely time even though 3 of my 4 dudes died in the same dungeon, which I worry may be empowering the boss to no end (only one actually died to the boss). The last one died to 4 champion wizards and 1 ancestral king wizard after I stepped into a lovely sounding portal To be fair, it was likely a portal titled "Hall of Champions"  Bobo the Red posted:Have one question though: do academy improving items in the dungeon drop if you autoclear a dungeon? I'd assume no, but there's no way to really track which dungeons you've previously gotten items from If you die in a dungeon and come back to avenge your old hero, everything that hero pyre would have given you if you walked over it in the dungeon is sprayed into the world if the dungeon is auto-cleared. A small handful of orange items, like the True Things research books, will drop on hero death to be picked up later. Proofs don't drop on corpses though.
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Apr 26, 2015 20:40
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madjackmcmad posted:To be fair, it was likely a portal titled "Hall of Champions"
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Apr 26, 2015 20:45
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