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WaterIsPoison posted:I screenshot'ed my saturday Looks good! I really dig the aesthetic. I've also got a new GIF, didn't feel like doing any more work tonight so recording myself cutting some grass in the first area:  I've always been a fan of cutting grass in games, so it's an honour to finally make my own contribution.
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May 3, 2015 15:18
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I just finished shadow of mordor, and something it does excessively well is unify its social (well, nemesis) system around your inputs: basically every action you can do to an orc (killing, interrogating, getting killed by, turning, frightening) feeds into the nemesis system in a way that is instantly understandable. I've been looking at ways this can help me streamline my own bloated system, and negative interactions are easy (punch, interrogate, threaten), but what kind of gameplay fosters positive interactions? I'm trying as hard as I can to get away from dialog and "Push X to get affinity points," but it is way harder to think up friendly inputs than it is to think up hostile ones.
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May 4, 2015 06:05
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Omi no Kami posted:I just finished shadow of mordor, and something it does excessively well is unify its social (well, nemesis) system around your inputs: basically every action you can do to an orc (killing, interrogating, getting killed by, turning, frightening) feeds into the nemesis system in a way that is instantly understandable. Punching, interrogating and threatening their enemies, of course. #21stcenturygamedesign
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May 4, 2015 06:08
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...so that might actually work- I've been trying super-hard to emphasis the "You can't make everyone happy thing", and instead of bothering to build a super-detailed social system independent of investigations, it might make waaaaay more sense to just make everything revolve around how you treat people during your investigation. I especially like how that takes grinding for affinity points completely out of the equation, and lets you focus on the stealth action gameplay. Do you think there's a need to allow the player to intentionally cultivate relationships at all? I think the notion of "I like this guy, so I want to do more things with him" is a powerful way to invest players in the narrative, but I think getting a really clean stealth-action game loop and making the social system a reflection of how your actions are changing the game world is much cleaner than letting you get bogged down in micromanaging relationships.
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May 4, 2015 06:17
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Omi no Kami posted:I just finished shadow of mordor, and something it does excessively well is unify its social (well, nemesis) system around your inputs: basically every action you can do to an orc (killing, interrogating, getting killed by, turning, frightening) feeds into the nemesis system in a way that is instantly understandable. Even though it's still based on relatively violent actions I always thought the way you could befriend the rebels in MGS4 was pretty neat. Essentially they wouldn't attack you if they saw you fire on their enemies or if you gave their soldiers rations and so on. I don't know what kind of game you're making but that might be a system worth looking at? I can't think of many of other examples of a similar system at least off the top of my head.
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May 4, 2015 06:19
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TheOrange posted:Even though it's still based on relatively violent actions I always thought the way you could befriend the rebels in MGS4 was pretty neat. Essentially they wouldn't attack you if they saw you fire on their enemies or if you gave their soldiers rations and so on. I don't know what kind of game you're making but that might be a system worth looking at? I can't think of many of other examples of a similar system at least off the top of my head. It's a detective game, right now your major sources of input are: a) assault people, b) question people with varying levels of aggression, c) arrest people. Seeing you be hyperaggressive to another faction could be pretty similar to watching you shoot at them, but I'm trying to balance the case distribution so eventually you have to piss off every community at least a little bit (by arresting someone from their faction), but the degree to which you alienate them depends on how aggressive you are, and how you've behaved towards them in the past.
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May 4, 2015 06:24
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Omi no Kami posted:I've been looking at ways this can help me streamline my own bloated system, and negative interactions are easy (punch, interrogate, threaten), but what kind of gameplay fosters positive interactions? I'm trying as hard as I can to get away from dialog and "Push X to get affinity points," but it is way harder to think up friendly inputs than it is to think up hostile ones.
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May 4, 2015 06:28
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That's a good idea, I think bribing might end up being functionally equivalent to Branding- maybe somebody's relative rank within the social hierarchy determines how expensive it is to bribe them, so building a relationship with a cheap flunkie and then manipulating the system to help them rise in it is far, far cheaper than bribing the person you actually need to inform on their group.
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May 4, 2015 06:34
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Omi no Kami posted:...so that might actually work- I've been trying super-hard to emphasis the "You can't make everyone happy thing", and instead of bothering to build a super-detailed social system independent of investigations, it might make waaaaay more sense to just make everything revolve around how you treat people during your investigation. I especially like how that takes grinding for affinity points completely out of the equation, and lets you focus on the stealth action gameplay. I think in a hardboiled detective/any kind of police procedural game relationship cultivation could be huge and really fun. Turn a blind eye towards small-time crooks that you can later get to drop dime or turn outright (if you're really good). Be sympathetic towards, or even fight for, a kid that got caught up in some shady business who could then ID the drug lord's inner circle. Fight your loose-cannon partner when he cold cocks a dude in an interrogation. Do any of this, though, and you start getting pushed back from your boss, other cops, eventually the police commissioner, etc. (basically I want The Wire: The Game, ok?) Honestly I think carefully managing those dynamics and trying to be a Jimmy McNulty or an Axel Foley or a Martin Riggs can be more fun than actually solving an investigation in the least number of moves or whatever.
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May 4, 2015 06:50
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Onion Knight posted:I think in a hardboiled detective/any kind of police procedural game relationship cultivation could be huge and really fun. Turn a blind eye towards small-time crooks that you can later get to drop dime or turn outright (if you're really good). Be sympathetic towards, or even fight for, a kid that got caught up in some shady business who could then ID the drug lord's inner circle. Fight your loose-cannon partner when he cold cocks a dude in an interrogation. Do any of this, though, and you start getting pushed back from your boss, other cops, eventually the police commissioner, etc. (basically I want The Wire: The Game, ok?) And if you keep pissing off your fellow copatriots you might end up walking into a raid, having your peers back out on you, and getting a bullet to the cheek.
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May 4, 2015 06:56
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Yeah, that sounds like it would be a great place for a Nemesis system equivalent, you could certainly add in some real dilemmas with the player where they might turn a blind eye to some bad poo poo in order to protect a valuable source. Being able to help out a snitch type character and have them rise through the ranks would be interesting as well, though I suppose that's curbed a little more directly from Mordor with Ratface or whatever his name was. From a positive side too you could have moments where your character could exonerate some communities kid that's the primary suspect, but maybe your partner / boss wants you to ignore it since it weakens their case. Of course I don't know how you go about making one of these systems work in a detective style game without involving quite a lot of scripting and one-off scenes or branching paths, all of which sound like they could be nightmares for your scope in the end. Still, sounds really interesting, if you can pull off what you're talking about then you could pull off the kind of game I wanted to see when I played LA Noire.
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May 4, 2015 07:02
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Go watch The Wire if you haven't already. It will likely spark a lot of ideas about how a fairly limited set of interactions can be used to bring about desired (or undesired) results within the police detective milieu. Seriously, though. Maybe instead of idle smalltalk directly building visible affinity, it silently increases a hidden 'willingness to talk' value (or decreases an 'All Cops Are Bastards' opinion malus) up to a certain limit, as well as.. pre-introducing you to a person, so that if something does happen involving them, you already know vaguely who they are and what they're involved with, but they might be slightly more willing to talk to you. Arresting or being harsh with people someone doesn't like could be the primary way of directly making someone like you more, but maybe balance it against a mechanic where if you go some arbitrarily determined value of 'too hard' on someone, it even upsets their enemies (because you're an rear end in a top hat so no one wants to be friends with you). Combine that with some sort of bribery or.. favor-trading mechanic.. so if you let someone off light/beat up someone's enemy they can owe you one, or if someone does you a favor you can give them your card and owe them one (with an appropriate relationship penalty if you fail to follow through), with the ability for NPCs to shuffle around in their criminal hierarchies a la Shadows of Mordor.. could be some cool poo poo. hailthefish fucked around with this message at 07:40 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 07:04
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Select response:
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May 4, 2015 07:17
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SynthOrange posted:Select response: I actually considered, then discarded something really similar when I was first looking at the investigation system- by far the best minimalist dialog system I've seen is in the Sam & Max games, you have three options with each person of interest: question mark (ask something), exclamation mark (say something), rubber duckie (say something random and probably funny). What TheOrange is describing is almost exactly what I want to end up with, the challenge along the way is actually making it fun- I've had lots of mechanics that looked great on paper, only to prove too fiddly and obnoxious/frustrating in action. Originally you were going to have tons and tons of data, and a boatload of menus to flit between in order to look things up, but I found it was incredibly hard, and really not a whole lot of fun. Once I get an investigation prototype that both supports procedural case generation and is honestly fun, I'm going to see about building the story stuff we've been talking about around it- one of my nonnegotiable requirements for the finished investigation system is the ability to solve cases wrong if you want to, so I think the best way to encapsulate a lot of the stories is to have each character listen to both your behavior, and to the way you solve the case: McNulty, Riggs, and Foley will each have a different emotional reaction every time you beat someone, cleverly question someone, or completely screw something up, your immediate supervisor wants the case to be over quickly, the captain wants the case to be over quietly, and the governor doesn't want anyone in his core voting demographic arrested, so what happens when the obvious suspect will require weeks of OT to catch, will create an uproar when he's arrested, and is a community leader in the governor's favorite demographic? I don't the scope will be that big of a problem if I can keep the ruleset simple and free of edge cases, I think the bigger problem will be managing information flow and communicating this flow to the player: the simplest way for word of your behavior to get around town would probably be to do six degrees of kevin bacon, and depending on the severity of your action have everybody who was present communicate it n levels into their social chain (thus changing each person they tell's reaction to you based on how they feel about that action), but I think this deserves something more complicated: information moves like a virus, and it would be really cool to have word of your exploits slowly move around town, giving you the chance to hedge the spread of information by beating/extorting certain people to keep quiet or shout it from the rooftops. Communicating what's happening to the player is probably going to end up being my major headache here. The Nemesis system was pleasingly simple: red line means hate, white line means like, yellow and red quest markers are related to those lines. In the simplest version of what I'm suggesting, you would at a minimum have cops, crooks, civilians, and for it to really sing you'd want multiple competing factions inside each of those groups, but at some point you're going to end up with information overload and the player is going to give up trying to follow what's going on.
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May 4, 2015 08:06
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Maybe something in that same vein, where the player can pull up their who's-who chart, click themselves, and see the web of relationships spreading out through the layers of NPCs they've interacted with, and those they've impacted without meeting. Or they can click on an NPC and see that NPC's particular relationships. Presenting the information is a UI problem that's its own little hell, figuring out a system that employs it all in a way that's crunchy enough to be interesting, straightforward enough to be understandable, and actually fun is the design problem, which is where you seem to be having troubles? The alternative is the Bioware way: the next time you talk to someone they thank you for the most recent nice thing you did or piss in your ear about the most recent rear end in a top hat thing you did.
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May 4, 2015 09:00
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I'm thinking of something in that vein... I really want to keep this to one screen, but I think there will ultimately have to be two layers of information: a top-level faction screen (cops hate the red gang who hate the blue gang who are allied with the green gang), which can be clicked to display everyone in said faction, any of whom can be clicked to show that person's social web. I'm kind of going for the wikipedia/tv tropes one more link appeal: make it honestly fun to trawl through the web seeing who is related to whom. What do you think of procedural missions? One thing I like about how the Nemesis system works is that it turns every alliance/disagreement into a short mission that can (usually) be resolved in a way that intentionally favors or antagonizes one of the participants, and it seems like one easy way to earn favors/social currency would be through doing one of a few primitive types of Favor quests that can be customized by faction + relationship score, but I don't want to turn this into a sandbox grindfest.
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May 4, 2015 09:16
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At some point you kind of just have to build it and see.
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May 4, 2015 09:18
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True enough, overplanning is definitely a bad habit of mine. ^^
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May 4, 2015 09:27
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I've been working on doing another PC-88 tribute game. The last one had a well-received aesthetic even though I didn't actually use the correct soundscape. Last time I tried to make this game, I didn't really have enough skill or planning to make it what I wanted to, but I think with this attempt I'll be off to a strong start when I get the ball rolling, since I've actually made a design doc and the title screen is probably one of the best I've made:  The music is being done with a music programming language using a YM2203 emulator, so I'm pretty much going full-bore with the whole PC-88 thing this time. Another thing I wanted to do is a sound source select option which can change the "sound source" that plays the music. The script would be simple enough to write, I'd just have to make alternate versions of the music in the game.
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May 4, 2015 09:38
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Spaceships!  I probably shouldn't be posting because I don't know if I'll have the free time to make the game I want to but eh whatever. Left one is a short haul freighter (designed to cross a few systems at most, carrying about 1000m3 of cargo), right one is the space equivalent of a commercial passenger jet, carrying ~200 passengers and 250 m3 of cargo and supplies across one or two systems. Both use the same spaceframe, have a 1000m3 fuel tank, and are equipped with tried-and-true nuclear thermal rocket technology for power generation and propulsion!  (Yes, I'm a bit of a hard sci-fi sperg. Yes, if this becomes a game, it won't be total boring realistic physics or KSP levels of orbital mechanics.)
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May 4, 2015 09:45
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Omi no Kami posted:I'm thinking of something in that vein... I really want to keep this to one screen, but I think there will ultimately have to be two layers of information: a top-level faction screen (cops hate the red gang who hate the blue gang who are allied with the green gang), which can be clicked to display everyone in said faction, any of whom can be clicked to show that person's social web. I'm kind of going for the wikipedia/tv tropes one more link appeal: make it honestly fun to trawl through the web seeing who is related to whom. If you can work it out into a procedural system then having some of that information obfuscated could be an interesting way of approaching it. To cite another modern game I think the newspapers from Hitman: Blood Money were always a really great way of breaking down the results of a mission without it becoming a stat screen, usually you'd get a few headlines reflecting your actions and a handful more that would hint at other things in the world. This might not be the easiest way for the player to keep track of things, but if they could see text like 'tensions rise between red and blue gang, citizens afraid to stay in their homes' it could give you some clue as to how these factions are inter-operating.
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May 4, 2015 09:51
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Omi no Kami posted:I'm thinking of something in that vein... I really want to keep this to one screen, but I think there will ultimately have to be two layers of information: a top-level faction screen (cops hate the red gang who hate the blue gang who are allied with the green gang), which can be clicked to display everyone in said faction, any of whom can be clicked to show that person's social web. I'm kind of going for the wikipedia/tv tropes one more link appeal: make it honestly fun to trawl through the web seeing who is related to whom. I actually enjoyed the missions generated by the nemesis system. I think if the gameplay is fun, generating small goals from the player's actions is a plus. In Mordor those short missions could feed back again by changing the characteristics of the enemies you interacted with. It's a good loop. You could also have a way to let the player automate those generated missions if you think they'd get repetitive, have them send out some normal police officers to harass someone or whatever.
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May 4, 2015 10:46
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Omi no Kami posted:Shadow of Mordor It's important to note that in Shadow of Mordor the only inputs you had on the named orcs were finishers. You could beat them down, sneak attack them, frighten them off, burn them, throw them off cliffs, run away, die, whatever, but in all cases these actions marked the end of your interaction with that iteration of that orc. How that orc reacted to what you did to them, fiction/flavour-wise, was hidden off screen. So, the devs only had to worry about this itemised list of ways you could finish off an orc, and how those finishers would drive later interactions. I assure you, the back end has something like "public static void ApplyCombatResult (Orc orc, CombatResult result)" to change all the values, and everything else is so much fluff and polish.
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May 4, 2015 13:48
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Somfin posted:It's important to note that in Shadow of Mordor the only inputs you had on the named orcs were finishers. You could beat them down, sneak attack them, frighten them off, burn them, throw them off cliffs, run away, die, whatever, but in all cases these actions marked the end of your interaction with that iteration of that orc. How that orc reacted to what you did to them, fiction/flavour-wise, was hidden off screen. So, the devs only had to worry about this itemised list of ways you could finish off an orc, and how those finishers would drive later interactions. Compared to the (complete?) lack of systemic character development in games this is a nice direction to see things go in though. Even if it was quite simple, it would be great to see more games move in this direction.
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May 4, 2015 14:07
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Working on an update for WRASSLING.  Apparently some people strongly dislike purple so now they can make their wrassler be any colour.  We shipped without a pause button and a quick restart and an easy way go back to the home screen. No longer!  And the holy grail of requests: Local multiplayer. P cramped on phones but it works. Both players can select a colour for their wrassler, possibly also hats, and the option to turn enemies spawning on and off in VS mode.  HELLO.
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May 4, 2015 14:09
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Resource posted:Compared to the (complete?) lack of systemic character development in games this is a nice direction to see things go in though. Even if it was quite simple, it would be great to see more games move in this direction. I was definitely not trying to say that it is a weak system. It is one of the best and most interactive games I've ever played. Omi no Kami has an admitted habit of making things far (FAR) more complicated than they need to be, so I was hoping to point out that the SoM system was mostly smoke and mirrors to make a streamlined and elegant system seem huge and sprawling.
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May 4, 2015 14:12
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Somfin posted:I was definitely not trying to say that it is a weak system. It is one of the best and most interactive games I've ever played. Omi no Kami has an admitted habit of making things far (FAR) more complicated than they need to be, so I was hoping to point out that the SoM system was mostly smoke and mirrors to make a streamlined and elegant system seem huge and sprawling. I completely agree that the system felt deeper than it was. It did also have some other interactions, like being able to start fights, control succession, gain intel, etc. which I think went a long way to making the core feel even deeper even though those actions were pretty limited. I think one of the biggest wins is making these generated characters feel a bit more like real characters because they are developed a bit over time. I think for a detective game where you interact with a ton of generated characters, anything to make the characters and their relationship to the player character evolve is going to make it better. Resource fucked around with this message at 14:47 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 14:34
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Noyemi K posted:I've been working on doing another PC-88 tribute game. The last one had a well-received aesthetic even though I didn't actually use the correct soundscape. Ah man. That brings me back to a couple years ago when I was futzing around with making a PC-98ish VN in Renpy but wound up making a bunch of dumb Ouya thread gag games in it instead. I still want to go back and do that one day, something about the 8801/9801/MSX/etc is appealing as hell to me and I can never place it. Maybe I just love dithering. That and FM synth. I'm excited to see what you come up with!
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May 4, 2015 15:34
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kirbysuperstar posted:Ah man. That brings me back to a couple years ago when I was futzing around with making a PC-98ish VN in Renpy but wound up making a bunch of dumb Ouya thread gag games in it instead. I still want to go back and do that one day, something about the 8801/9801/MSX/etc is appealing as hell to me and I can never place it. Maybe I just love dithering. That and FM synth. I made a new splash screen, loaders, and everything. I am so ready to make this poo poo:  Due to some possible future technical/graphical issues, the game itself is actually gonna run at 640x400 rather than 640x200 with tall pixels. But I think most people will overlook that detail with how I put everything else together.
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May 4, 2015 16:01
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SynthOrange posted:Select response: Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
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May 4, 2015 16:41
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the chaos engine posted:Working on an update for WRASSLING. Color selection is cool (will the enemy wrasslers + bosses be palette swapped to avoid color collisions?), pause/restart/home is good, and multiplayer sounds fantastic ;D A couple other suggestions from me, known lover of Wrassling: • I want to re-request my Smash-Bros-esque off-screen magnifying glass, or maybe better just a little colored arrow indicating location, although since I last posted I have discovered that air control and air jumps are only a thing while wearing a hat. I'd still like this even if it wouldn't be as useful as I thought! • Maybe add a tip that mentions that wearing a hat is what gives you air control and air jumps? At first I thought those extra aerial abilities were random, then thought they were only present if you had initiated the jump yourself (so touching an enemy wrassler would remove them until your next intentional jump), then I thought they stuck around only until you'd scored some small number of KO's. • Bug Report: You can become moderately invincible if you manage to wedge yourself face-first into a corner while prone, and keep holding that same direction so you (almost) never stand up. Other wrasslers will trip over your feet, throw tantrums while standing on your neck, and eventually KO each other to score points for you, but will mostly never be able to budge you from this shameful hiding place. Not entirely invincible (a boss toppled from just the right distance, if they decide to tantrum at the right time while leaning over, might pick you up by your feet; the stage tilting from the blue boss(es) might raise your head enough to stand you back up; or the red boss's lowered post can help your face scoot just over the lip of the ring if another wrassler is walking into your feet), but you are at least mostly safe from interaction and thus harm. I admit I turtled my way to my current high score of 115 points by just waiting for quite a while, scoring only but a mere fraction of those points honorably  When you move, your body leans forwards, overriding the typical return-to-standing direct rotation, though extremes are prevented by running into a ringside post, since this usually forces you back upright. But if you're within about 15° (ish) from horizontal when your head hits the ringside post then your leaning rotation more than cancels out the indirect return-to-standing force, and you sink to straight horizontal from there. You can even start such a Shame Turtle before the first enemy wrassler falls into the ring! From a new game, spin your arms so they're above your head, then tap "right" four to six times within the first couple seconds. Even if you don't time the presses perfectly, the first enemy wrassler will probably stomp on your back and slam you fully horizontal. Maybe add a small invisible ramp in each corner that only interacts with a wrassler's head? Or force the indirect return-upright rotation from a post to outweigh the lean-forward rotation when your angle is close to horizontal? Or some other better solution?
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May 4, 2015 18:03
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I had a brainstorm for a minigame within a VR game I intend to put together at some point. So I threw this together in Unity: http://www.nealeroberts.com/hack/2/ Doesn't work on Chrome, annoyingly. The score/high score and difficulty sliders won't be part of the real thing, I just put them in for testing purposes. Any feedback would be appreciated.
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May 4, 2015 20:37
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the chaos engine posted:
Is that a (partital) C64 color palette? SynthOrange posted:Select response: 
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May 4, 2015 21:09
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Pi Mu Rho posted:I had a brainstorm for a minigame within a VR game I intend to put together at some point. So I threw this together in Unity: It's too hard on difficulty 0 and too easy on difficulty 4. I think you're best off checking that the number of permutations required to succeed doesn't exceed a certain number.
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May 4, 2015 21:12
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Fangz posted:It's too hard on difficulty 0 and too easy on difficulty 4. I think you're best off checking that the number of permutations required to succeed doesn't exceed a certain number. Too hard on 0? That hasn't been my experience so far, but everything is up for tweaking at the moment. The timer is based on a very simple formula currently, something a bit more complicated might help to even it out a bit. I just added a level 5 difficulty, too.
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May 4, 2015 21:14
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Now I gotta go play Dune again.
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May 4, 2015 21:53
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Everyone should play Dune because it had a unique merge of strategy and rpg elements. There's design ideas in there that are worth pillaging. Also play Dune 2 because it was the birth of RTS as we recognize it today.
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May 4, 2015 22:08
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xzzy posted:Everyone should play Dune because it had a unique merge of strategy and rpg elements. There's design ideas in there that are worth pillaging. Yeah Dune is freaking brilliant. Dune 2... its cool because like you said, its literally the birth of RTS, but both Dune 2 and Warcraft: Orcs and Humans are completely unplayable if you've played an RTS in the last 10 years. Lemme just order my troops around one by one... I can just sorta make myself play command & conquer still, it has a nice nostalgia even though its simple. But Dune 2 and Warcraft 1 are just toooooo old.
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May 4, 2015 22:19
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Edit: ^^^^^^ But in Warcraft you can select FOUR units. Woah! I've only played Dune II on Mega Drive. It's great, and it was the first RTS I played, but individually selecting one unit and a time, moving across the map to send it somewhere, and moving back to select the next one was not fun with a controller. And probably not a lot more fun with a mouse. I love the unit and building designs, and actually pretty much everything else about it though. Those sand worms!
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May 4, 2015 22:21
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Does anyone here know anything about font licenses? If a font allows redistribution with an app as long as it is not embedded, what exactly does that mean? My assumption was that it was allowed to redist the .ttf with the license and read it with your app (as opposed to embedding it directly into a resource file or something similar,) but after doing some reading on what an embedded font is I'm confused. It seems like redistribution with your app is outright disallowed, but I find that hard to reconcile with the idea of an open license. Can someone clear this up?
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May 4, 2015 22:44
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