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Man, I really wouldn't use Wong as an example of good writing. I liked John Dies at the End, but he's really not a good writer. He's a fun writer though.
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May 12, 2015 20:30
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ravenkult posted:Man, I really wouldn't use Wong as an example of good writing. I liked John Dies at the End, but he's really not a good writer. He's a fun writer though.
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May 12, 2015 20:45
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magnificent7 posted:Yes, but more importantly of the "This Book Is Full Of Spiders" and "John Dies In The End". I've read John Dies but not Spiders. Honestly I love everything about Wong as a writer and human. Despite the current editors and staff writers being largely responsible for the proliferation of the Listicle Cracked is stacked with great fiction writers. Their writers workshop is on the whole fantastic too. Daniel Obrien's How To Fight Presidents is a loving gem.
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May 12, 2015 20:45
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If you want to pick up a book that's clear enough to read but routinely breaks rules, a book where the author just seems to make up words that sound and shape the way he needs, I really recommend Blood Meridian. It's a seismic thing.
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May 12, 2015 20:50
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magnificent7 posted:This is like debating whether you like Bach or the Rolling Stones. Well, he's neither, so...
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May 12, 2015 20:57
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ravenkult posted:Man, I really wouldn't use Wong as an example of good writing. I liked John Dies at the End, but he's really not a good writer. He's a fun writer though. There's a difference between 'technically good' and 'effective' writing in my mind. Rules can be broken and sometimes it helps keep the flow of the story and keep things interesting. You can be a great writer without rigidly adhering to the 'conventions' of literature. All that matters in the end is that your narrative is intelligible and engaging. Fun writing is good writing to more than a few people. That isn't to say that you're wrong in your interpretation of good writing, but the weight you place on convention and classical composition in terms of readability. That stuff matters to me up until the point it makes the prose bland and predictable and stifles the author's voice. Case in point: My 3 favorite writers are Douglas Adams, Frank Herbert, and Chuck P. (Judge me) All three of them are best sellers. All three are revered within their genres. All three of them have completely different 'rules' their stories adhere to. By most people's standards they ARE amongst the great minds of their Genre and literature in general. Chuck Wendig just uploaded a really great blog pretty much stating that all advice about writing (even his own) is essentially bullshit and there has never been a science to fiction. The gist is the 'rules' people put out aren't universal to anybody but themselves because thousands of writers have become best sellers breaking the rules. It's way more than that in reality but all in all it was a fantastic read. I really dug it, will edit later with link. SkaAndScreenplays fucked around with this message at 21:18 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:59
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I agree with Wendig but at the same time it's frustrating to try to explain that no, your prose is Actually Bad, it's not that I've misunderstood your stylistic decisions. I do feel there's...something, even if it's hard to pin down, a clear sense of prose that works and prose that doesn't.
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May 12, 2015 21:14
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General Battuta posted:I agree with Wendig but at the same time it's frustrating to try to explain that no, your prose is Actually Bad, it's not that I've misunderstood your stylistic decisions. I do feel there's...something, even if it's hard to pin down, a clear sense of prose that works and prose that doesn't. True. There is definitely bad prose, I would argue that there is prose that is universally unreadable. The thing is you don't know that until you read it and determine it would be less painful to beat yourself with the book rather than read it. Also there is probably a respectable amount of fiction that adheres to conventional wisdom but is utterly unreadable due to awful cliches or being completely uninspired. I think the point is to not dismiss something as bad because of deviations from the norm. Dismiss it as bad because it conveys the story/tone/characters in a lovely way Or doesn't resolve conflicts effectively due to lack of structure or organization. Many the classics we revere in any medium broke established rules too. Think that's it
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May 12, 2015 21:33
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SkaAndScreenplays posted:I think the point is to not dismiss something as bad because of deviations from the norm. The thing about this is that we use these conventions when reading in the same way we use road signs when driving. So yes it is fine to break them, but you need a good enough reason to do so that you're willing to sacrifice the ease of reading that those conventions give you.
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May 12, 2015 22:09
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ravenkult posted:Man, I really wouldn't use Wong as an example of good writing. I liked John Dies at the End, but he's really not a good writer. He's a fun writer though. He's totally a good enough writer. And he works hard. That's basically all you need.
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May 12, 2015 22:31
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sebmojo posted:He's totally a good enough writer. And he works hard. That's basically all you need. Agreed. I'm just saying, you shouldn't be looking at his writing and going ''Yes, this is what great writing is like. I should emulate this.'' I don't know, I'm super weird about that. I had the same reaction when someone was linking writing advice that Jim Butcher posted on his blog. If you want to learn the basics of good writing, look to the greats first. And on that note, I liked this post Nick Mamatas made, regarding Butcher. http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1922794.html
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May 12, 2015 22:40
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newtestleper posted:The thing about this is that we use these conventions when reading in the same way we use road signs when driving. So yes it is fine to break them, but you need a good enough reason to do so that you're willing to sacrifice the ease of reading that those conventions give you. The way I've come to think about this is that breaking "rules" will inevitably make your audience work harder. And the harder you make your audience work (and it's okay to make them work), the better the reward for that work needs to be. Of course, that's as subjective as anything else.
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May 12, 2015 23:19
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clarity trumps ego imo
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May 12, 2015 23:21
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when i drive on the highway, i go faster than the speed limit. I have been driving for a long time, understand the risks, and know where i can push it a little and where i need to slow the gently caress down. I've never been in an accident. but you put a brand new 15 year old driver behind the wheel and they try to speed down the highway while texting and wrap around a telephone pole. to break rules you need to understand them and break them purposefully. if you break them because you're an idiot just starting to write, you're probably going to wrap your readers' minds around a telephone pole.
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May 12, 2015 23:46
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ravenkult posted:Agreed. I'm just saying, you shouldn't be looking at his writing and going ''Yes, this is what great writing is like. I should emulate this.'' Jim Butcher's prose is functional at best. You should try to do better than that. The advice on his blog, however, is almost entirely concerned with plotting and structure, which are his strengths. It's also pretty much the Cliff's Notes version of Dwight Swain's Techniques of the Selling Writer which is a good book. (His writing teacher was Swain's pupil and ran his writing program, I believe.) Learning from the greats is great and all, but generally speaking, if you're asking for advice on technique on the internet, you're probably not someone who has the natural instincts to just read something good and take in all the right principles from it. Mamatas is an obnoxious wanker, by the way.
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May 12, 2015 23:46
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I like him, he stirs poo poo up.
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May 12, 2015 23:53
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crabrock posted:when i drive on the highway, i go faster than the speed limit. I have been driving for a long time, understand the risks, and know where i can push it a little and where i need to slow the gently caress down. I've never been in an accident. but you put a brand new 15 year old driver behind the wheel and they try to speed down the highway while texting and wrap around a telephone pole. When I drive on the highway, I do it naked, my body covered in fat, glistening leeches, and there is a clown in my back seat who honks a bicycle horn in my ear every time a stop sign comes near. When I stop, I vigorously scream along to a fifteen second loop of Gregorian chanting from my 1990's-era MP3 player. Meanwhile, there is a Venezuelan man huddled in the trunk of my car, feverishly protecting an aged slab of beef he is convinced will grant him seven wishes. This shows in my writing. I am not a good writer. I also do not have my license.
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May 13, 2015 00:00
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crabrock posted:when i drive on the highway, i go faster than the speed limit. I have been driving for a long time, understand the risks, and know where i can push it a little and where i need to slow the gently caress down. I've never been in an accident. but you put a brand new 15 year old driver behind the wheel and they try to speed down the highway while texting and wrap around a telephone pole. Same, except I was in multiple minor accidents when I was 16 - 18, because I was an idiot trying to show-off when I didn't know anything. Luckily lovely writing probably won't kill anyone (I didn't kill anyone!!) but basically, learn how to loving drive.
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May 13, 2015 02:17
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Get good at writing with the rules first. If you're having to ask the goons at something awful dot com about following/breaking rules of writing then, odds are, you suck. Get better. Get better by writing more.
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May 13, 2015 02:56
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Screaming Idiot posted:When I drive on the highway, I do it naked, my body covered in fat, glistening leeches, and there is a clown in my back seat who honks a bicycle horn in my ear every time a stop sign comes near. When I stop, I vigorously scream along to a fifteen second loop of Gregorian chanting from my 1990's-era MP3 player. Meanwhile, there is a Venezuelan man huddled in the trunk of my car, feverishly protecting an aged slab of beef he is convinced will grant him seven wishes. Can this be a Thunderdome Prompt? 1000 word first person retrospective on the events leading up to this situation?
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May 13, 2015 02:58
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Same, except I was in multiple minor accidents when I was 16 - 18, because I was an idiot trying to show-off when I didn't know anything. Luckily lovely writing probably won't kill anyone (I didn't kill anyone!!) but basically, learn how to loving drive. Having incorrect opinions on what is/isn't' "good" writing, however, will kill people. And kittens.
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May 13, 2015 03:17
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Hey guys, I need some perspective--what's the difference between parody and fanfiction? For me, it goes beyond matter of names, it also lies in the intent--if the author intends to legitimately poke fun at the source material and everything else would be minutiae.
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May 13, 2015 03:51
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_fiction
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May 13, 2015 03:52
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Sitting Here posted:Having incorrect opinions on what is/isn't' "good" writing, however, will kill people. And kittens. Eagerly awaiting some historical example where a grammar error led to a bloody war that killed thousands.
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May 13, 2015 04:05
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What I'm trying to get at is this--I want to enter this week's prompt on the 'dome with a parody of a source material which I will cite. I'm concerned about going into this prompt with something I've never done before and if it would be considered fanfic or not 
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May 13, 2015 04:16
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Eagerly awaiting some historical example where a grammar error led to a bloody war that killed thousands. everyone died so no one knows
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May 13, 2015 04:20
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Eagerly awaiting some historical example where a grammar error led to a bloody war that killed thousands. The word Shibboleth is close to your wishes: quote:Recorded in the Book of Judges, chapter 12, after the inhabitants of Gilead inflicted a military defeat upon the tribe of Ephraim (around 1370–1070 BCE), the surviving Ephraimites tried to cross the Jordan River back into their home territory and the Gileadites secured the river's fords to stop them. In order to identify and kill these refugees, the Gileadites told each refugee to say the word shibboleth. The Ephramite dialect did not contain the "sh" sound and so those who pronounced the word as sibboleth were identified as Ephramites and killed.
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May 13, 2015 04:22
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You will know when it's time to break the rules, because you will know the rule and why you're breaking it. But you will only know if you did so successfully if people read your work and they tell you—or if you make tons of money on it, whatevs.
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May 13, 2015 04:37
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Stuporstar posted:You will know when it's time to break the rules, because you will know the rule and why you're breaking it.
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May 13, 2015 05:16
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Stuporstar posted:You will know when it's time to break the rules, because you will know the rule and why you're breaking it. So many Oprah book club authors got rich on legitimately bad writing. A million little pieces comes to mind.
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May 13, 2015 06:25
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should i keep trying thunderdome or should i kill myself
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May 13, 2015 06:28
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SkaAndScreenplays posted:So many Oprah book club authors got rich on legitimately bad writing. Some books become popular not on writing but no what the "trend" is. The trend is not something easily predictable because it can be dictated by the media, the audience or both. Toni Morrison is pretty good though. A Million Little Pieces was completely disowned by Oprah once it emerged the author made up everything. spectres of autism posted:should i keep trying thunderdome or should i kill myself yes
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May 13, 2015 06:37
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spectres of autism posted:should i keep trying thunderdome or should i kill myself Even if you don't think so right now, you are growing and improving every time. I personally look forward to watching you turn into a word-slinging badass so please keep chilling in the mortal coil a while longer k?
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May 13, 2015 06:41
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For me personally, it took me 5 weeks until I could write something in a way that didn't make people angry, and about 20 weeks until I started finding my rhythm. I plateaued for a while, experimenting with things and just getting more comfortable, and then about my 60th entry something seemed to snap into place, and I started to really write how I'd been wanting to write. I still have some stuff to improve on and learn, and I dunno how long that will take, but you should definitely keep with it for a while. Don't give up just because something doesn't work right away.
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May 13, 2015 06:54
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ahaha, good to know it took other ppl a while. ill keep at it.
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May 13, 2015 06:58
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It only took me 47 entries and 3 losses for my first win, so if you don't see results right away you might as well pull the plug.
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May 13, 2015 08:37
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Stuporstar posted:You will know when it's time to break the rules, because you will know the rule and why you're breaking it. please use contractions more consistently tia
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May 13, 2015 11:19
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spectres of autism posted:should i keep trying thunderdome or should i kill myself Keep trying Thunderdome. Don't kill yourself, kill words. Kill them all. Murder the words, kill your darlings, take up the cleaver dripping with ink and hack hack hack at the letters until there's nothing left but a jumbled mess of bleeding vowels and quivering syllables. Collect them, sew them together, create a horrible abomination and show it to the world. They will either accept your genius or condemn you as a blasphemer, either way will lead you to a sort of immortality. IT ALL STARTS WITH BLOODSHED. MURDER THE WORDS, TAKE THEIR POWER FOR YOUR OWN.
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May 13, 2015 19:29
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Or, you know, just keep writing poo poo til you become less poo poo.
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May 13, 2015 22:59
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Screaming Idiot posted:IT ALL STARTS WITH BLOODSHED. MURDER THE WORDS, TAKE THEIR POWER FOR YOUR OWN. docbeard posted:Or, you know, just keep writing poo poo til you become less poo poo. SA Thunderdome is the WWE of flash fiction. YES I AM AWARE OF MY AVATAR, thanks for pointing it out. magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 20:58 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 20:54
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