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Mazz posted:It's pretty seamless. I've watched HMX-1 V-22s take off from a parking lot next to Soldier Field in Chicago and many people wouldn't even be aware the transition is happening until the thing was already in level flight. You also have to remember that the H-53s in question were/are loving massive helicopters (the MH-53M could carry up to 38 combat troops). If there is a difference, it's probably pretty negligible. Comparing SOF pilots to regular MV-22 pilots isn't really fair but Blackhawks can pull off grab and goes or seamless drop offs followed by recovery after the target is grabbed that make landing or departing with the osprey look like making a ten point turn in a tractor. But if some guy is stuck out in the middle of nowhere and needs to get picked up really fast, Ospreys are certainly good for that. They used one for the F-15 that went down over Libya.
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May 19, 2015 18:51
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mlmp08 posted:Comparing SOF pilots to regular MV-22 pilots isn't really fair but Blackhawks can pull off grab and goes or seamless drop offs followed by recovery after the target is grabbed that make landing or departing with the osprey look like making a ten point turn in a tractor. Yeah I think it's a bit unfair to really compare either to the Blackhawk though, given the disparity in stuff like size/agility. I just read some about the CH-53K after the last couple posts and its gearbox, at 12,000lbs, weighs more then an entire (empty) UH-60L. I assume the V-22 couldn't ever replace the Pave Hawks, just the Pave Low. The hovering thing is a good question though. Paging Bob A Feet Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:10 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 19:00
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Wow, I never really realized how much bigger the -53s were either:
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May 19, 2015 19:41
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bitcoin bastard posted:Wow, I never really realized how much bigger the -53s were either: Reminds me of a mom cat carrying her kittens by the nape of their neck.
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May 19, 2015 19:47
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bitcoin bastard posted:Wow, I never really realized how much bigger the -53s were either: Do we have another even bigger helicopter to carry one of those out when it breaks too?
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May 19, 2015 19:48
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fknlo posted:Do we have another even bigger helicopter to carry one of those out when it breaks too? We rent out Mi-26s. 
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May 19, 2015 19:55
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bitcoin bastard posted:Wow, I never really realized how much bigger the -53s were either: Well, it wasn't called the Super Jolly Green Pygmy
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May 19, 2015 19:59
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fknlo posted:Do we have another even bigger helicopter to carry one of those out when it breaks too? Nope. They can lift their own weight. Max Gross Lift is 36,000lb, and ramp weight is around there. You defuel the thing (it can hold like 20,000lb of gas) and you can single-point sling it underneath one of its buddies.
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May 19, 2015 20:27
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holocaust bloopers posted:Reminds me of a mom cat carrying her kittens by the nape of their neck.  mommy catte and babby kittens
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May 19, 2015 20:41
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mlmp08 posted:Comparing SOF pilots to regular MV-22 pilots isn't really fair but Blackhawks can pull off grab and goes or seamless drop offs followed by recovery after the target is grabbed that make landing or departing with the osprey look like making a ten point turn in a tractor. I love Osprey discussions because I just hang back until people post wrong stuff like this. No offense, but I'm going to pick your post apart. There are no such things as SOF pilots. At least not in the MV/CV community. They all train together. Source- In my FRS class had AF pilots in it, my FRS squadron had AF instructors in it. In fact, HMX-1 pilots, the pilots that fly around the president, come from fleet squadrons. No extra special training, no top secret nothing. Other than being good at their job. Also, the CV community's mission set is primarily deep assault poo poo with guys with relaxed uniform regs and beards in the back, if you catch my drift. So they literally already do what you're describing. Already mentioned, but the osprey is large amounts faster than any helicopter, and can transition to land and transition to take off in a "not classified but I won't risk my job here" number of much much faster. Manueverability, especially as a helicopter, is just as good. Now that fact does surprise everyone because it is is ugly and not sleek and sexy like a UH-1 or 60. 60 probably has an edge because it is smaller and much lighter. Also, the stuck in the middle of no where argument in your last line is pretty BS, because that guy was being pursued, with CAS on station when they rescued him. If you have a chance to watch some land sometime or fly, I really encourage you to. Most peoples expectations of floppy tilty crash machine are flat out wrong. Again, if I came off snarky, I apologize. edit- in response to the question of how good does an osprey hover, the answer again is as good as a helicopter. They're all plagued by the same problem of if the density altitude (pressure altitude+temp) and weight are high and there aren't supporting winds, you're either compromising on fuel or pax/payload because your "useful load" won't be that high. useful load= max takeoff/landing (whichever is lower) weight with appropriate torque margin* - operating weight (plane, crew, oil and required lubricants, mission specific kits, no fuel measurement) *a torque margin is used as a safety factor in case say for example temperature is worse, or one of the guys in the back brought an extra pack, etc etc basically if my useful load is 10 the fuel required to get to the objective and back is 8, then i can only carry 2 units of whatever i'm carrying (dudes, cargo, etc.) We actually have a distinct advantage over a helicopter because we are more fuel efficient over range and we can aerial refuel. Bob A Feet fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 20:45
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I was not referring to spec ops osprey pilots vs normal. I was referring to the special operations wing Blackhawks pilots that do bonkers poo poo like land in back yards or swoop in and drop a team out the side doors at a jogging pace with their weapons already up on target. I guess I've only ever seen MV-22 pilots fly very conservatively in exercises. They just seemed rather slow around an LZ compared with Blackhawks and skids. Of course they're fast in overland travel. Edit: I'm no osprey expert but they always were just noticeably slow every time I've seen them (by sight and radar) operating, but maybe they were just babying the hell out of them at WTI compared with other rotors. All my experience with them has been in exercises rather than no poo poo combat scenarios. Edit2: I was unclear when I said stuck in the middle of nowhere, but I meant that as a pro for the Osprey. If you have very little time to get someone out before poo poo potentially goes sideways a fast osprey is better than a slower helicopter. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 21:40 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 21:08
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Is there a science to how long the rope/chain needs to be to carry a helicopter? Function of tinsile strength and weight of the object?
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May 19, 2015 21:28
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Rope/chain strength doesn't depend on length. Imagine if a cable got weaker as it got wound onto a winch, does that seem right? The only science is "is it strong enough?", "do we have enough attachment points to hoist it in a stable way?", and "will it clear the carrying heli?"
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May 19, 2015 21:35
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May 19, 2015 21:59
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Enourmo posted:Rope/chain strength doesn't depend on length. Imagine if a cable got weaker as it got wound onto a winch, does that seem right? I'm far from expert, but wouldn't line length and tension be important with regard to resonance? Seems like something you'd need to worry about.
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May 19, 2015 22:02
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Good stuff, man, thanks. I look at the Osprey and think, "That thing is FAT, there's no way that thing can transition all that well". I get that it's not going to be Apache quick, but I didn't really expect it to be as agile as you allude to. I've watched them take off and land a decent amount, and admittedly, not in a "combat state".
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May 19, 2015 22:09
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I've only ever seen an Osprey perform at the Miramar airshow, but they seem to work just like you'd expect a typical helicopter to, apart from the ridiculously giant rotor/props. They honestly look like they should get in the way, but I guess they don't.
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May 19, 2015 22:21
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Captain Apollo posted:Is there a science to how long the rope/chain needs to be to carry a helicopter? Rigging an object is complicated. It's got to not have a moment resonance with any of the primary moments of the airframe. It has to be slung from certain points TO certain points, and the attachment points have to be at certain angles so that the weight transmitted by the cables/chains doesn't crush the thing you're lifting. That sometimes means spreader bars, more cables, a frame in the cabin of the thing lifted, or sometimes just really, really long cables. Rigging it to be dynamically stable is probably just magic at this point. But with every system I know of, a single-point sling has a cartridge-fired safety device on the hook, so the pilot, copilot, or loadmaster can just decide "nope" and drop the load off the hook no matter what it's doing. If you're really interested, ASME B30.12 Handling Loads Suspended from Rotorcraft is probably available from a technical publication library near you.
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May 19, 2015 23:09
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LostCosmonaut posted:We rent out Mi-26s. This pic of it always breaks my brain 
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May 20, 2015 00:03
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I still want to see one of those do a full-down autorotation. I mean, preferably from a nice, safe distance and definitely not on board.
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May 20, 2015 00:12
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Duke Chin posted:I still want to see one of those do a full-down autorotation. Ah google.
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May 20, 2015 00:20
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How do two-body dynamics work if the load shifts (i.e. that orange strap slides back to the wing root), do the helicopter and load become semi-independent pendulums around an unstable barycenter? I can't see a helicopter recovering from that event fast enough before crashing in to the ground. In that picture, I'm imagining the strap sliding left, the nose swinging down and clockwise towards the right, causing the helicopter to pitch 30+ degrees to starboard and the rotor stalling out.
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May 20, 2015 00:31
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I swear I've google'd this before (and H-53 and S-92) and, outside of the Sikorsky I've never found anything. Me suck at the google. But that music owns.  Hadlock posted:How do two-body dynamics work if the load shifts (i.e. that orange strap slides back to the wing root), do the helicopter and load become semi-independent pendulums around an unstable barycenter? I can't see a helicopter recovering from that event fast enough before crashing in to the ground. Everything in that picture effectively has a barycenter of The Rotor Disk (basically at the hub) while it's aloft/under load unless the load gets caught on something and becomes unmovable. If it were free-swinging the load would have to swing out pretty drat far before anything dynamic would start taking over which is moot since babyeatingpsychopath posted:the pilot, copilot, or loadmaster can just decide "nope" and drop the load off the hook no matter what it's doing.
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May 20, 2015 01:48
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While we're on the topic, apparently the Chinese are interested in a helo with a 80,000lb payload. That's about equal to the loaded weight of an CH-53K. They are working with the Russians on developing a new heavy lift helo line, with that as an ultimate goal. http://sputniknews.com/world/20150428/1021461400.html http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/china-russia-team-up-to-build-worlds-largest-most-po-1661471905
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May 20, 2015 02:14
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Mazz posted:While we're on the topic, apparently the Chinese are interested in a helo with a 80,000lb payload. That's about equal to the loaded weight of an CH-53K. They are working with the Russians on developing a new heavy lift helo line, with that as an ultimate goal.  Neat - and farther down that jalopnik link there's Wait, no, that's a different livery on the Halo and jet - yet they're both the same time. huh Well then I choose to believe Russia was having the 1000M Jet Lifting Championships that day. Halos be getting swole. Duke Chin fucked around with this message at 02:32 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 02:28
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What was the effect/problem where if the load you are trying to lift has too much surface area you can never get the load off the ground even though you have plenty of power. Or am I imagining things. Tried googling, got lost in http://www.quartermaster.army.mil/adfsd/pdf_manuals/tm4_48x09.pdf and now I know how to make my own static discharge rig in a pinch.
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May 20, 2015 02:52
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Helado posted:What was the effect/problem where if the load you are trying to lift has too much surface area you can never get the load off the ground even though you have plenty of power. Or am I imagining things. Newton's Third Law?
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May 20, 2015 03:12
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yeah yeah, but I thought some time ago when there was cargo lift chat, there was something about trying to lift out a plane and not being able to. Like I said, maybe imagining things.
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May 20, 2015 03:53
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Helado posted:yeah yeah, but I thought some time ago when there was cargo lift chat, there was something about trying to lift out a plane and not being able to. Like I said, maybe imagining things. I think you're thinking of Wing in Ground Effect
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May 20, 2015 04:02
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If all the lift from the rotor blades is pushing against the thing you're trying to lift then yes you won't be able to lift it.
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May 20, 2015 04:05
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hobbesmaster posted:If all the lift from the rotor blades is pushing against the thing you're trying to lift then yes you won't be able to lift it. what if it's on a treadmill
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May 20, 2015 04:20
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You mean turntable.
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May 20, 2015 04:21
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Okay. Here's a video of a 53e releasing a 47d which is more on topic. Music warning. http://youtu.be/7qQlV5S1kMs
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May 20, 2015 04:34
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Helado posted:Okay. Here's a video of a 53e releasing a 47d which is more on topic. Music warning. http://youtu.be/7qQlV5S1kMs Yeah I'm just going to go ahead and pretend they did that on purpose and were aiming for that house but missed.  Pickle 47 Duke Chin fucked around with this message at 04:43 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 04:39
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Amazon really needs to work out the kinks in their new same-day delivery system.
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May 20, 2015 04:52
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Shithooks ruin everything.
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May 20, 2015 05:10
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mlmp08 posted:I was not referring to spec ops osprey pilots vs normal. I was referring to the special operations wing Blackhawks pilots that do bonkers poo poo like land in back yards or swoop in and drop a team out the side doors at a jogging pace with their weapons already up on target. i'm gonna weigh in from the blackhawk side of the house: the hawk is drat agile when it wants to be, far more than you'd expect out of a 16,000lbs medium-lift utility bird, but we specifically train pilots to use non-aggressive control inputs and power-conservative approaches all the time, so that when they're actually in high density altitudes they're not trying to pull more power than the engines can provide in those conditions. yeah, it looks boring and slow but at 12,000 feet it will make the difference between a successful approach or burning a hole in the ground. when you see a hawk (or anything) coming in to land with an excessive nose-up attitude and pulling in a ton of collective to arrest the decent, that's what we call "hotdogging" and it's killed a whole lot of people the instant that pilot tried the same maneuver and the power wasn't there. also, just saying, but landing in backyards, and touch-and-drops, and FRIES/SPIES, and vehicle interdiction et al, are hardly the sole purview of SOF aviation. brains fucked around with this message at 06:33 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 06:29
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hobbesmaster posted:Note to Jay Leno: please do this. Leno does tours of his garage, but they're private by-invitation-only, you must sign an NDA, you don't get to know where it is exactly, no photography, the whole deal. I know someone who went and he was so amped it was ridiculous. Can't blame him though.
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May 20, 2015 16:59
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Psion posted:Leno does tours of his garage, but they're private by-invitation-only, you must sign an NDA, you don't get to know where it is exactly, no photography, the whole deal. I know someone who went and he was so amped it was ridiculous. Can't blame him though. Trying to figure out why an NDA would be required or not letting someone know exactly where it is. Do they blindfold you? I can kinda get no photography, but the rest is weird.
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May 20, 2015 17:02
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If you don't know where it is, you can't steal any of them to order
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May 20, 2015 17:04
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