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wormil posted:Owsley didn't usually handle financials... He always handled financials. Wesley makes a point to comment on it. And Owsley was right there, readily available, but Fisk didn't want him involved. Ask yourself why. Why do you think they brought up financials at all? The only reason was to show that Fisk no longer trusted Owsley. But ultimately none of that matters to the greater point of whether these character's storylines went anywhere, because they didn't. They are dead, their plotlines ended, and everything they tried to accomplish was for naught. A characters value to the story is not dependant on how interesting they are. Wesley's plot was to protect Fisk and help him gain power, which he did. He was also tied in to Karen's plot, and his death is an important piece of her plot (and Fisk's, really). So Wesley was a necessary character. Urich was also important, because he lends weight to the investigation. Also very tied to Karen, because his death also changes her. She was responsible for it in a way. Just because their part in the plot is over doesn't make the characters value-less.
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May 19, 2015 01:11
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wormil posted:A characters value to the story is not dependant on how interesting they are. It's also not dependent on whether they live or die at the end. Wesley's role in the story was to be Fisk's first and only true friend, but one who was kind of bad for him despite his intentions because he enabled Fisk's worst tendencies by insulating him from the world where Vanessa, his replacement in the story, pushes him to come out in to the light and become a better person. Well, a stronger and more confident and social one anyways. He was there to give the audience insight in to Fisk, indirectly, by showing the kind of man that would give his loyalty to him and that Fisk was on some level a good, human person because he had an actual friend who cared deeply for him and not just underlings. He was there to be the stooge for the season, so that Fisk didn't have to do the dirty work or mingle with the mooks - he had an underling who did that street level poo poo for him. There had to be some intermediary in the show between Fisk and the street, and he was it. He was probably filling other roles too, but those at the least anyways.
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May 19, 2015 01:17
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Yeah their "plotlines" didn't "end", because they were all well-integrated into the story. Urich's story in part is about doing things the right way, the smart way. Literally the very first scene that introduces him as respected because Urich was an ethical man who protected the mobster's family. His very last scene is him being murdered because Karen Page didn't do things the right way, and went after Fisk's family. It's a really neat, discrete arc. Wesley's death is part of the greater unraveling of Fisk's empire. The investigation didn't "go nowhere", the investigation set off the chain of events that threw Fisk off-balance, that led to Wesley and Urich's deaths. Obviously that's not the end result they specifically wanted, but it's the sort of thing that Urich predicted. Remember, he specifically told Karen the story about the source who wound up face down in the river. He specifically warned that Fisk might go after them, or even kill them, and Wesley personally hunting down Karen is exactly that. They got results, but those results had a very high moral and human cost, a recurring idea in the show.
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May 19, 2015 01:59
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I would predict Owlsley's plot continues through his son. And his death might be a catalyst for that.
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May 19, 2015 01:59
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wormil posted:They were fantastic characters but that doesn't mean their contribution to the story was worth the amount of screentime given. I would rather some of that time be given to a main character. This post is blowing my loving mind. Read it and somehow try and make sense of it at your own peril.
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May 19, 2015 04:32
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mikeraskol posted:This post is blowing my loving mind. Read it and somehow try and make sense of it at your own peril. Pretty much. If they were fantastic characters and their plots integral to the overall story, who cares how much screen time they were given relative to the "main" characters? Well, one guy, I guess, but it was a rhetorical question, anyway.
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May 19, 2015 06:21
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ImpAtom posted:The fact that you think a character's plotline 'goes nowhere' if they die is remarkably depressing and shortsighted. Every single one of these character's plots went places if just by underlining the thematic core of the plot. The next time I get annoyed at a show for "playing it safe" and refusing to kill off main and secondary characters, even if it would serve the plot, I'm going to remember this exchange...
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May 19, 2015 10:17
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program666 posted:Killing urich for made sense for this story in particular but he is a important character for the marvel universe in general, I really thing they shouldn't have done that. I agree. Urich's character is central to DD and I'm wondering how they'll go about replacing him. Killing him was a huge mis-step because, for one thing, the writers have missed out on the "Ben discovers Matt is DD" storyline. He was great character. If they needed to kill someone for the sake of drama, they could have Wilson off his wife in the hospital or something like that. Then Ben throws himself even further into the story, newly motivated, discovers Matt is DD, etc. and finds himself in danger. wormil posted:Urich's sole purpose was as mentor to Karen, that's it. The "investigation" was another dead end and served mainly as a reason for Urich and Karen to spend time together. Secondarily the investigation served to excuse Murdoch's vigilantism. So you had two characters whose purpose was to develop a secondary character yet received as much camera time as the main character. Interesting take, but I didn't view it that way at all. I saw it as more a portrayal of helpless people caught up in the web of criminal power and the a commentary on the decaying state and over-commercialization of "journalism", and even "law". Karen and Ben seemed like people trying to operate inside the (old) rules and realizing that it wasn't possible to achieve anything that way anymore. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 17:28 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 17:22
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BiggerBoat posted:I agree. Urich's character is central to DD and I'm wondering how they'll go about replacing him. Killing him was a huge mis-step because, for one thing, the writers have missed out on the "Ben discovers Matt is DD" storyline. He was great character. If they needed to kill someone for the sake of drama, they could have Wilson off his wife in the hospital or something like that. Then Ben throws himself even further into the story, newly motivated, discovers Matt is DD, etc. and finds himself in danger. They have Foggy for that, as Ben knew a long time before Foggy.
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May 19, 2015 17:25
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I think the fact that people go "They can't kill Urich, he's important in the comics" is a good example of why it was a good thing to do. It underlines that they're not just adapting the comics and that you can't depend on things to follow an expected pattern. It means new characters can be introduced and can be important despite not being comic characters and comic characters aren't safe from danger or consequences because they are comic characters.
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May 19, 2015 17:35
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bobkatt013 posted:They have Foggy for that, as Ben knew a long time before Foggy. True, but if you've read the comics you know that Urich is the first one to discover that Matt is DD, has the story, could make a lot of money with it and then decides to sit on it. It creates a lot of dramatic tension and moral ambiguity that the think the writers will miss out on by killing off Ben. Foggy is RIGHT THERE in Matt's world and is with him all the time. Ben is (was) an investigative journalist operating through the looking glass with what's becoming an outdated sense of journalistic integrity. I don't really see Foggy filling Ben's role. You can use him for that but not in the same way. For one thing he already KNOWS about Matt/DD. For another, he's not going be tempted with having to sell Matt's story and find himself caught up like Ben did (remember, Ben died).
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May 19, 2015 17:54
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ImpAtom posted:I think the fact that people go "They can't kill Urich, he's important in the comics" is a good example of why it was a good thing to do. It underlines that they're not just adapting the comics and that you can't depend on things to follow an expected pattern. It means new characters can be introduced and can be important despite not being comic characters and comic characters aren't safe from danger or consequences because they are comic characters. I have no problem with writers killing off important characters, as long as they make good stories, it's just that this kind of thing is usually accompanied by lovely writing. So far the writers of this particular series have made a stellar job so I'm not too worried.
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May 19, 2015 18:01
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ImpAtom posted:I think the fact that people go "They can't kill Urich, he's important in the comics" is a good example of why it was a good thing to do. It underlines that they're not just adapting the comics and that you can't depend on things to follow an expected pattern. It means new characters can be introduced and can be important despite not being comic characters and comic characters aren't safe from danger or consequences because they are comic characters. From what I understand, this was the rationale behind Marvel's directive to the showrunners to kill Urich.
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May 19, 2015 18:06
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BiggerBoat posted:True, but if you've read the comics you know that Urich is the first one to discover that Matt is DD, has the story, could make a lot of money with it and then decides to sit on it. It creates a lot of dramatic tension and moral ambiguity that the think the writers will miss out on by killing off Ben. Foggy is RIGHT THERE in Matt's world and is with him all the time. Ben is (was) an investigative journalist operating through the looking glass with what's becoming an outdated sense of journalistic integrity. They might use that cop friend.
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May 19, 2015 18:07
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I don't mind that they killed Urich but I wish they would have done one story with him as the main protagonist first. They did that with one issue of the DD comic book and it was rather interesting seeing everything from his point of view.
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May 19, 2015 18:14
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nelson posted:I don't mind that they killed Urich but I wish they would have done one story with him as the main protagonist first. They did that with one issue of the DD comic book and it was rather interesting seeing everything from his point of view. On the one hand, I thought his story was meandering and boring, so I was glad they killed him off so I didn't have to watch it anymore. On the other, they could have just given him a good story. I feel like he was almost as bad as Claire, but without the excuse of limited availability. I really liked the fakeout of "Ben becomes a blogger" because the whole series people were like "yay no dumb blogger character".
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May 19, 2015 18:20
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We already have that character arc in House of Cards and it ended the same for both characters.
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May 19, 2015 18:23
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If they need him for any reason, they can just bring Urich back using a Lazarus Pi- oh, right. Sigh. Too many comic book shows on...
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May 19, 2015 18:29
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Habibi posted:If they need him for any reason, they can just bring Urich back using a Lazarus Pi- oh, right. Sigh. Too many comic book shows on... They could smallville it and have him have a brother named Ben Urich.
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May 19, 2015 18:31
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I haven't finished house of cards yet, so I don't actually want spoilers, but if you're telling me that Francis Underwood loving murders Kate Mara's character, I will be so happy.
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May 19, 2015 18:32
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Snak posted:I haven't finished house of cards yet, so I don't actually want spoilers, but if you're telling me that Francis Underwood loving murders Kate Mara's character, I will be so happy.
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May 19, 2015 19:28
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bobkatt013 posted:They could
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May 19, 2015 21:27
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Ben dying was the only way his story arc could have ended. He's an old school reporter invested in a dying medium doing a type of journalism that is a dying art. Ben's type of journalism doesn't work on the internet not unless he's writing articles like 'Top 6 Possible Identities of Daredevil'. Ben represents the whole of print journalism, there's no place for him in the modern world so he had to die just as newspapers and magazines are dying.
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May 19, 2015 22:20
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Rarity posted:Ben dying was the only way his story arc could have ended. He's an old school reporter invested in a dying medium doing a type of journalism that is a dying art. Ben's type of journalism doesn't work on the internet not unless he's writing articles like 'Top 6 Possible Identities of Daredevil'. Ben represents the whole of print journalism, there's no place for him in the modern world so he had to die just as newspapers and magazines are dying. The Devil of Hell's Kitchen Unmasked? You Won't Believe the Face Behind it All!
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May 19, 2015 22:53
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AnonSpore posted:The Devil of Hell's Kitchen Unmasked? You won't believe it when you "see" the Face Behind it All! ftfy edit: One weird trick that this Hell's Kitchen man uses to save THOUSANDS! Optometrists HATE him! Meditation could have you hundreds in doctor's visits... click here to learn how! 6 Secret identities you won't believe! 13 X-Men Powers you wish you had (#7 Will shock you, and everything else!) Snak fucked around with this message at 23:03 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 22:58
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Rarity posted:Ben dying was the only way his story arc could have ended. He's an old school reporter invested in a dying medium doing a type of journalism that is a dying art. Ben's type of journalism doesn't work on the internet not unless he's writing articles like 'Top 6 Possible Identities of Daredevil'. Ben represents the whole of print journalism, there's no place for him in the modern world so he had to die just as newspapers and magazines are dying. Sorry, no. The story needs tightening up, someone was given way too free a hand with this. Not the worst thing I've ever seen, but they need a much clearer vision going into season 2. Really if its not one of the two main characters what is the point of even showing the character? The only two people who should appear on my screen are Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk.
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May 19, 2015 23:14
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mikeraskol posted:Sorry, no. The story needs tightening up, someone was given way too free a hand with this. Not the worst thing I've ever seen, but they need a much clearer vision going into season 2. Really if its not one of the two main characters what is the point of even showing the character? The only two people who should appear on my screen are Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk. Oh COME ON. The show is called Daredevil. Wasting time with Matt's personal life is just that: wasting time. I don't watch a show called Daredevil to see a blind guy tool around. Now that he has the suit and has become Daredevil, I think it would be a big mistake for the writers to have any more scenes of him out of the suit in season 2.
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May 19, 2015 23:24
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mikeraskol posted:Sorry, no. The story needs tightening up, someone was given way too free a hand with this. Not the worst thing I've ever seen, but they need a much clearer vision going into season 2. Really if its not one of the two main characters what is the point of even showing the character? The only two people who should appear on my screen are Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk. UHHMM That's one too many, the show is called Daredevil not Daredevil and a Fat Dude thanks
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May 19, 2015 23:31
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wormil posted:But ultimately none of that matters to the greater point of whether these character's storylines went anywhere, because they didn't. They are dead, their plotlines ended, and everything they tried to accomplish was for naught. A characters value to the story is not dependant on how interesting they are. This guy understands TV shows. Hell, he's cracked the secret to writing, and even - dare I say it - life in general. We who die are worth nothing. Fin.
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May 19, 2015 23:36
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AnonSpore posted:UHHMM That's one too many, the show is called Daredevil not Daredevil and a Fat Dude thanks It should be like a Bendis comic and just speaking heads, and its only Daredevil.
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May 19, 2015 23:38
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i like the group of people who think they are "genre savvy", but only see stories are as a bunch of actions done by characters and plot as a wavy line while ignoring the important things like motivation, characterization, theme, and whether or not the story has tim curry
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May 19, 2015 23:47
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Let's be honest here, any story without Tim Curry is just handicapping itself by lowering it's potential from the start.
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May 19, 2015 23:54
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mr.capps posted:i like the group of people who think they are "genre savvy", but only see stories are as a bunch of actions done by characters and plot as a wavy line while ignoring the important things like motivation, characterization, theme, and whether or not the story has tim curry wormil posted:I agree those characters added something to the show but they were not main characters, not even returning characters. Look on my works and despair.
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May 19, 2015 23:55
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Gyges posted:Let's be honest here, any story without Tim Curry is just handicapping itself by lowering it's potential from the start. mr.capps posted:i like the group of people who think they are "genre savvy", but only see stories are as a bunch of actions done by characters and plot as a wavy line while ignoring the important things like motivation, characterization, theme, and whether or not the story has tim curry Fern Gully supremacy confirmed.
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May 19, 2015 23:56
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mikeraskol posted:Look on my works and despair. what are your opinions on tim curry
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May 20, 2015 00:17
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mr.capps posted:what are your opinions on tim curry  Just kidding, he's shiny and chrome.
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May 20, 2015 00:44
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AnonSpore posted:UHHMM That's one too many, the show is called Daredevil not Daredevil and a Fat Dude thanks daredevil and fat cub
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May 20, 2015 01:54
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Daredevil should have been a 10 hour, one shot fight scene in a hallway. No stupid dialog to get in the way of the action.
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May 20, 2015 02:27
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Nah, that'd be diluting the show by adding lots of other people who just exist to be get beaten up. Having characters who go nowhere like that is just terrible writing. The show should obviously have been 10 straight hours of Daredevil shadow-boxing, only interrupted by his training breaks where we get insight in to his deep character by watching him pick his nose, scratch his balls and in one particularly intriguing and controversial sequence, take some vitamins with his water.
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May 20, 2015 03:43
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tsob posted:Nah, that'd be diluting the show by adding lots of other people who just exist to be get beaten up. Having characters who go nowhere like that is just terrible writing. The show should obviously have been 10 straight hours of Daredevil shadow-boxing, only interrupted by his training breaks where we get insight in to his deep character by watching him pick his nose, scratch his balls and in one particularly intriguing and controversial sequence, take some vitamins with his water. nah he takes his vitamins with a can of diet coke. the cliffhanger being: does he always drink diet coke? has he gone his whole life thinking diet coke is regular coke?
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May 20, 2015 03:48
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