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alpha vs beta is so basic and grade school that a big buff dude who goes 'graaa' could totally fit on that. if anything the fact that he has no lines other than '-----' makes him even more of an archetypal embodiment of masculinity. Not to mention the fact that he's freaking Hercules.
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May 27, 2015 17:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEOCJeqoWVo
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May 27, 2015 17:21
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Rin is a good character, but her arc is (unevenly) spread across all three routes: UBW's Rin in particular is nothing to write home about. She still has motivations and goals that have nothing to do with the protagonist. Also, one of the bad ends (the one where she wipes Shirou's memory MIB style) of the route shows that Team Rin is perfectly capable of winning the war without Shirou.
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May 27, 2015 17:32
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Endorph posted:alpha vs beta is so basic and grade school that a big buff dude who goes 'graaa' could totally fit on that. if anything the fact that he has no lines other than '-----' makes him even more of an archetypal embodiment of masculinity. Not to mention the fact that he's freaking Hercules. Like I said, I prefer to discount him because I don't really view him as much of a character (to clarify, I don't think he's a bad character, just not one the story pays much attention to, thematic or otherwise). If you did want to go there, though, I guess you could say that he ends up getting an even harsher version of Lancer's deal - his death is tragic and noble, yes, but it's also a big dumb alpha brute with incredible strength failing miserably and leaving it up to our weedy protagonist to fix his mess. Actually, come to think of it, isn't Berserker's job in all three routes to get wrecked in order to show how badass someone else is? That doesn't imply a high estimate of his brand of strength (and if you're tying strength into hypermasculinity, well...). Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 17:50 on May 27, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 17:33
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Darth Walrus posted:Actually, come to think of it, isn't Berserker's job in all three routes to get wrecked in order to show how badass someone else is? That doesn't imply a high estimate of his brand of strength (and if you're tying strength into hypermasculinity, well...). In Fate hes a midboss, similar to Caster's role in UBW, except defeated a little more traditionally. In Heavens Feel, he spoilers the spoiler spoiler. (The movie will be out soon enough...)
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May 27, 2015 19:13
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I thank you.
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May 27, 2015 19:39
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JimmyT64 posted:In Fate hes a midboss, similar to Caster's role in UBW, except defeated a little more traditionally. I think the term Darth Walrus was looking for was "jobbing," and no he only does that in UBW really. EDIT: I also think it's humorous that in terms of story telling, midbosses are generally a lot more important than final bosses. I'd probably put Berserker's role in Fate as more like Archer's role, whereas Caster in UBW is more like Rider in Fate. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 00:01 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 23:58
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Twiddy posted:I love how vague the original wording is, here. "Wrecked to show how much better someone else is." That's... kind of the point of anyone getting beaten, when you think about it. Yeah, jobbing seems about right. You set up this guy as a terrifying force of nature, then have someone roflstomp him to show how superior they are. And yeah, it's entirely possible for someone to be killed or beaten down in a way that doesn't make the perpetrator look cool or scary - see also, poor old Lancer's demise, where it was more about him powering through it than about Kotomine being amazing for killing a Servant, or any time Shinji gets the upper hand.
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May 28, 2015 00:15
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Darth Walrus posted:Actually, come to think of it, isn't Berserker's job in all three routes to get wrecked in order to show how badass someone else is? That doesn't imply a high estimate of his brand of strength (and if you're tying strength into hypermasculinity, well...).
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May 28, 2015 00:30
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Darth Walrus posted:Yeah, jobbing seems about right. You set up this guy as a terrifying force of nature, then have someone roflstomp him to show how superior they are. And yeah, it's entirely possible for someone to be killed or beaten down in a way that doesn't make the perpetrator look cool or scary - see also, poor old Lancer's demise, where it was more about him powering through it than about Kotomine being amazing for killing a Servant, or any time Shinji gets the upper hand.
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May 28, 2015 01:24
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What's up with people in this thread hating Kiritsugu? He was much better then Shirou. His methods absolutely did work. The only reason he failed was because the true nature of the grail was hidden from him. He was badads, effective, and a much more compelling protagonist.
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May 28, 2015 02:26
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Edit: Never mind, will take it to Type-Moon General.
Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:46 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 02:43
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Surprisingly Dope posted:What's up with people in this thread hating Kiritsugu? He was much better then Shirou. His methods absolutely did work. The only reason he failed was because the true nature of the grail was hidden from him. He was badads, effective, and a much more compelling protagonist. "Worked" in what sense? The result of his actions were a fire that devastated Fuyuki (destroying tons of buildings and killing presumably thousands), the death of his wife and close assistant, complete separation from his daughter (who came to hate his guts, although for unjustified reasons), and more or less passing the buck after failing to satisfactorily end the fourth war. zero's conclusion is a complete dressing down of the kind of idealism that Kiritsugu represents, and he'd be the last person to agree his methods were effective.
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May 28, 2015 02:47
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Sylphid posted:"Worked" in what sense? The result of his actions were a fire that devastated Fuyuki (destroying tons of buildings and killing presumably thousands), the death of his wife and close assistant, complete separation from his daughter (who came to hate his guts, although for unjustified reasons), and more or less passing the buck after failing to satisfactorily end the fourth war. zero's conclusion is a complete dressing down of the kind of idealism that Kiritsugu represents, and he'd be the last person to agree his methods were effective. They were certainly effective in obtaining the grail, the only reason it didn't work was because the nature of the grail was misrepresented by the church and mages accosiations. It's not Kiritsugus fault that mages are shitheads.
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May 28, 2015 02:51
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If you thought Kiritsugu was cool you entirely misunderstood the point of FZ.
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May 28, 2015 02:52
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Hell, he even tried to destroy the grail when he figured out it was a sham, and the destruction only happened because the grail decided to bring Kotomine back to life.
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May 28, 2015 02:53
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Rodyle posted:If you thought Kiritsugu was cool you entirely misunderstood the point of FZ. Explain how he wasn't cool. Because literally everything about him is cool.
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May 28, 2015 02:54
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Surprisingly Dope posted:Explain how he wasn't cool. Because literally everything about him is cool.
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May 28, 2015 02:57
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While watching F/Z I definitely fell into thinking he was badass and siding with him over an "insufferable" Saber, but when not indulging my edgy teen/Batman sensibilities it's a different story. He's just a pathetic rear end in a top hat who gets some good fight scenes and then is rightfully destroyed.
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May 28, 2015 02:59
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Like getting away from trying to explain why exactly Kiristugu is bad, understand that the author literally went in with the conclusion "Kiritsugu is bad" and wrote that.
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May 28, 2015 02:59
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If I was in the holy grail war my wish would be to destroy the Grail so that this thread would stop having such bad discussion.
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May 28, 2015 03:00
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Even if we ignore the corruption of the grail mucking things up during/after the Kiritsugu/Kotomine battle, Kiritsugu got to that point by making both himself and everyone he cares about miserable with a rather tenuous grasp as what kind of wish he'd give in the first to supposedly make up for that suffering. His final acts still left him a sad, broken man.
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May 28, 2015 03:01
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littleorv posted:If I was in the holy grail war my wish would be to destroy the Grail so that this thread would stop having such bad discussion.
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May 28, 2015 03:04
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I don't hate Kiritsugu, I hate that people think he's "successful" and missing the point of F/Z which is making GBS threads all over him and his "kill a few, save more" idea. Also, a jerk to Saber.
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May 28, 2015 03:07
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Kiritsugu sucks, Shirou rules, cats drool
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May 28, 2015 03:08
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Kiritsugu is cool because guns and shooting guns are cool. Way cooler than swords imo.
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May 28, 2015 03:08
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Before Fate/Zero, Kiritsugu was literally presented as a broken man who tried and failed to be a hero, and who passed the torch down to his adoptive son. There's other timelines where he succeeds spectacularly by thinking outside of the box even further and doing to the entire Grail War what he did to that one building. But that leads to Prisma Illya so that's a bit of a wash. Also he was entertaining as a badass demolition man but was boring as a character outside of his flashbacks. In terms of storylines, the guy had the second weakest of all the Masters, only beating out that serial killer because Kiritsugu was two-notes instead of one. And Waver's story basically stole the show, so he's not even the best character in his own series.
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May 28, 2015 03:11
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T.G. Xarbala posted:And Waver's story basically stole the show, so he's not even the best character in his own series. Waver is the best and so is Zero Rider.
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May 28, 2015 03:13
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Rodyle posted:Apparently she got chewed out by her boss for going off the reservation and writing some opinion piece instead of a review. Endorph posted:Did she? Where'd you get that info? Rodyle posted:Second hand. Boss man apparently came out and said something about how he'd have had her be more on topic if he'd seen the review himself prior to posting or whatever. I don't plan on reading the comments thread to confirm. If you're still interested, she did but it was only a minor chewing out. Zac, the ANN Executive Editor, posted some stuff in the comment thread about making sure Gabby stayed on message next time, not inserting comments about overall themes about the series into an episode review, and save them for an opinion piece on the series once its over. Also, for her and Jay O to be less flippant about their comments on Twitter regarding stuff they know will be controversial. Link to said comment is here, with further comment by him a couple of posts down and then a comment from Gabby right underneath that one.
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May 28, 2015 03:14
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T.G. Xarbala posted:Before Fate/Zero, Kiritsugu was literally presented as a broken man who tried and failed to be a hero, and who passed the torch down to his adoptive son. There's other timelines where he succeeds spectacularly by thinking outside of the box even further and doing to the entire Grail War what he did to that one building. But that leads to Prisma Illya so that's a bit of a wash. That would explain the crater...
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May 28, 2015 03:36
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I know Kiritsugu's a bad person but I think he's a less typical protagonist than Shirou (or at least, the fact that what he does is presented as bad is atypical) and also that his suite of abilities is more interesting than "I get out of fights alive because I, unbeknownst to myself, have insane regenerative powers". Shirou is cool sometimes and his overall arc is good but goddamn if he isn't boring a lot of the time
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May 28, 2015 03:54
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kiritsugu is insanely boring at all times. at least shirou smiles sometimes, goddamn
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May 28, 2015 03:59
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kiritsugu, playing with his daughter:  kiritsugu, insulting king arthur: kiritsugu, killing a man: kiritsugu, having sex with his wife: kiritsugu, having sex with his sidekick: kiritsugu, killing a woman: kiritsugu, killing his crush: kiritsugu, killing his mother figure: kiritsugu, fighting his rival: kiritsugu, killing his wife: kiritsugu, killing his daughter:  kiritsugu, saving a little boy's life:  there i just summarized fate/zero for anyone who hasn't watched it
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May 28, 2015 04:07
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Endorph posted:kiritsugu, killing his daughter: Spoilers man. I didn't know Illya was a zombie. But seriously, as I haven't gotten around to finishing Fate/Zero, what's this part supposed to mean?
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May 28, 2015 04:12
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andipossess posted:Spoilers man. I didn't know Illya was a zombie. He killed an illusion of Ilya (which he knew was an illusion, IIRC) created by Angra Mainyu.
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May 28, 2015 04:14
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May 28, 2015 04:15
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andipossess posted:Spoilers man. I didn't know Illya was a zombie. He's put in a situation where he has to choose between his ideal and his family. He kills fake versions of his wife and daughter.
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May 28, 2015 04:16
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Kotomine is so much better than Kiritsugu
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May 28, 2015 04:16
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I just like that he's super capable to the point where he calmly takes on mages despite barely being a mage himself. Yeah, he was obviously working towards the wrong goal, but he still got there despite the odds. I think everyone likes Waver because he's a nice guy and the most relatable of the cast (and also because he was bros with Rider), but he's not as interesting a character as the other major players at the end of the day.
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May 28, 2015 04:18
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I don't have strong feelings about Fate/Zero either way so it's a bit strange to me how much this thread (and often the other one too) revolves around it. Obviously there's a comparison to be made, but man it is absolutely dominating the discussion.
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May 28, 2015 04:20
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