Roguelikes: I never met@progression I didn't like

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Roguelikes: I never met@progression I didn't like

Tremis: Nov 30, 2013

Kyzrati posted:

Ya, I been lurking SA for years, but only recently signed up to talk directly with goons now that the game is out.

Great to hear stories! A backup last-resort melee weapon can really tear 'em up. With the right parts you can put together some nasty dedicated melee builds. The one thing I was just again yesterday lamenting is the lack of dual/multi-wielding, but it wouldn't work with the mechanics that make melee weapons unique. Had to make the assumption you can only use one at a time in order to make them so powerful and give them special effects.

About your question, no secret, really. Theoretically you can hack terminals to follow the alert level and gradually figure out how much everything affects it. In general, anything you do that causes trouble will raise the level by a relative amount. So yeah, even killing the green dudes does it. However, they are much less valuable so there's little impact there unless you start mass-murdering. That's a different story.

The most successful confrontational strategies will involve hacking threat records out of the system when the opportunity presents itself.

Having allies multiplies the security increases, which is more likely to call down assault squads, or even better-equipped assaults squads, so that's dangerous. I do want to make it so that when as your allies are destroyed the alert level comes down a bit. That currently doesn't happen, so when they're gone you're left to deal with a floor on super high alert! I'll make this change for Alpha 2.

@Happylisk: Glad you're having fun with it, and yeah, it's all about the comebacks. Cogmind makes you feel really good again and again like that . Not a game for every RL fan though, because that kind of gameplay is predicated on the fact that there's little permanence to your build. Many roguelikers thoroughly enjoy the idea of gradually growing a unique character, and it was a shame to have to give that up here. But hey, new things are new!

Hey, thanks for posting here!

Quick question: Are there any elements of permanence per run, like passives a-la-DoomRL planned or already in the game?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 10:01

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# ? May 7, 2024 08:32

Kyzrati: Jun 27, 2015; MAIN.C

dis astranagant posted:

Why does the useless and suicidal ramming attack require no further input than simple movement? A serf enters a door I thought I was going through and now all my stuff is broken.

Not useless! But yeah you don't want to do that when you're in good shape.

The next release (Alpha 2) is going to require a double-click/double-press confirmation and warning light if you're going to ram a robot (i.e. move into it without an active melee weapon), because it's not so often that you want to do so.

Tremis posted:

Quick question: Are there any elements of permanence per run, like passives a-la-DoomRL planned or already in the game?

Not much. Of course there are your slot choices, which are important since they put a cap on how much functionality you can rely on in a given category. Aside from that there's only one thing, and it's pretty minor: System Familiarity. The more you hack a specific model of machine, the better you are at hacking all other such machines. It's not a huge factor, and something I want to adjust later to make it more meaningful.

Nothing major is planned in terms of stats/traits/perks/bonuses.

Later with the plot additions there will be certain factions you could piss off. That'll be pretty permanent...

# ? Jul 8, 2015 11:07

Happylisk: May 19, 2004; Leisure Suit Barry '08

Kyzrati posted:

The most successful confrontational strategies will involve hacking threat records out of the system when the opportunity presents itself.

Does this mean Alert purges, or are you referring to something else?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 13:14

ToxicFrog: Apr 26, 2008

Benly posted:

I will buy Cogmind if it gets a Mac release. I'm not holding my breath, but it sounds pretty cool and hey, I can hope.

s/Mac/Linux/ and that's me. It looks super cool, but I already have enough games I can't play on my laptop.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 13:22

Kyzrati: Jun 27, 2015; MAIN.C

The steps to run on a Mac are here, but I'd suggest if you don't want to fool around with that solution just wait until I have the time and capability to wrap it for you... or even wait until the game is done and there are even more cool things to do

Happylisk posted:

Does this mean Alert purges, or are you referring to something else?

Sorry, yeah, just an in-lore way of referring to the Alert(Purge) command. This afternoon I made some changes going into the next release that will affect security levels and make a few situations easier to deal with even without hacking. That said, if you are blowing up everything in sight, you can still expect heavy resistance.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 13:41

Ernie.: Aug 31, 2012

If two more people want in to cogmind let me know. I have PMs and I'm ClappingCactus on Steam.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 13:48

Happylisk: May 19, 2004; Leisure Suit Barry '08

Kyzrati posted:

Sorry, yeah, just an in-lore way of referring to the Alert(Purge) command. This afternoon I made some changes going into the next release that will affect security levels and make a few situations easier to deal with even without hacking. That said, if you are blowing up everything in sight, you can still expect heavy resistance.

I've been manually using Alert(Purge) at every terminal I see on the assumption that the more I do the command, the better my cogmind will get at it. Is that assumption true, or do I need to rtfm again? Sorry for all the questions!

# ? Jul 8, 2015 14:09

Cephalocidal: Dec 23, 2005

Ernie. posted:

If two more people want in to cogmind let me know. I have PMs and I'm ClappingCactus on Steam.

I don't have time to dedicate to it now, but I really want to see more people playing it and posting vids/trip reports.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 14:59

Kyzrati: Jun 27, 2015; MAIN.C

Happylisk posted:

I've been manually using Alert(Purge) at every terminal I see on the assumption that the more I do the command, the better my cogmind will get at it. Is that assumption true, or do I need to rtfm again? Sorry for all the questions!

While you won't get better at it, no, repeating that command is great for continually driving down the alert level--you can see by checking the alert level that one hack is rarely enough. You'll want to RTFM eventually, but it's not really necessary until you want to take on the late game and make sure you have a strong understanding of the underlying mechanics and little tricks here and there. Most of it you can figure out through normal play, and one of the earliest new areas to be added will be a place where you'll get some help with more obscure (or even completely hidden) mechanics in a lore-relevant way.

The easiest way to win at hacking is attach as many Hacking Suites as you can find/build, since they stack. In Alpha 2 allied Operators will also report security level changes to you automatically by intercepting and decoding additional Complex 0b10 transmissions.

Early players filled out a large chunk of the wiki by becoming ultimate hackers and virtually owning low/mid-floors for as long as they wanted to, but that was before I fixed an unfortunate oversight that allowed them to manually hack any schematic they could learn the name of :eek:

. For a time they were digging through the lore finding references to components that aren't even supposed to be available yet and fabricating them, ha.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 15:07

Happylisk: May 19, 2004; Leisure Suit Barry '08

Kyzrati posted:

While you won't get better at it, no, repeating that command is great for continually driving down the alert level--you can see by checking the alert level that one hack is rarely enough. You'll want to RTFM eventually, but it's not really necessary until you want to take on the late game and make sure you have a strong understanding of the underlying mechanics and little tricks here and there. Most of it you can figure out through normal play, and one of the earliest new areas to be added will be a place where you'll get some help with more obscure (or even completely hidden) mechanics in a lore-relevant way.

The easiest way to win at hacking is attach as many Hacking Suites as you can find/build, since they stack. In Alpha 2 allied Operators will also report security level changes to you automatically by intercepting and decoding additional Complex 0b10 transmissions.

Early players filled out a large chunk of the wiki by becoming ultimate hackers and virtually owning low/mid-floors for as long as they wanted to, but that was before I fixed an unfortunate oversight that allowed them to manually hack any schematic they could learn the name of . For a time they were digging through the lore finding references to components that aren't even supposed to be available yet and fabricating them, ha.

Got it. Sounds like the ideal combat build will therefore have some utility slots dedicated to improving hacking chances, in order to make sure that your purges actually work.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 15:12

StarkRavingMad: Sep 27, 2001; Yams Fan

Does terminal familiarity increase just by accessing them, or do you need a successful command sent? And if the latter, does each success increase it more?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 19:45

Galaga Galaxian: Apr 23, 2009; What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!

Stop talking about Cogmind. I'm trying to resist getting it and wait for later release. :argh:

# ? Jul 8, 2015 20:14

uPen: Jan 25, 2010; Zu Rodina!

I got Cogmind confused with Cortex Command and was wondering why everyone was talking about that piece of hot garbage.

e: Also Cogmind supports hjkl by default, roguelike of the year.

uPen fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jul 8, 2015

# ? Jul 8, 2015 20:19

SnowblindFatal: Jan 7, 2011

uPen posted:

I got Cogmind confused with Cortex Command and was wondering why everyone was talking about that piece of hot garbage.

e: Also Cogmind supports hjkl by default, roguelike of the year.

It's a crying shame that Cortex Command didn't get any better, because on paper it's a dream come true.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 21:01

andrew smash: Jun 26, 2006; smooth soul

I'd be down to take part in a cogmind 3 pack as well, if anybody else is interested.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 21:39

Ernie.: Aug 31, 2012

andrew smash posted:

I'd be down to take part in a cogmind 3 pack as well, if anybody else is interested.

Alright. One more person say yes.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:04

Fayez Butts: Aug 24, 2006

me. Who wants to buy?

Fayez Butts fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jul 8, 2015

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:55

Tremis: Nov 30, 2013

Wow, haven't been so overwhelmed in a game in a while. Any basic beginner stuff on Cogmind?

# ? Jul 9, 2015 00:51

Ernie.: Aug 31, 2012

Fayez Butts posted:

me. Who wants to buy?

Not me. I have no interest in the forum badge at the dev website! Decide between the two of you.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 01:08

Benly: Aug 2, 2011; 20% of the time, it works every time.

Kyzrati posted:

The steps to run on a Mac are here, but I'd suggest if you don't want to fool around with that solution just wait until I have the time and capability to wrap it for you... or even wait until the game is done and there are even more cool things to do

I've had really spectacularly bad luck trying to make Wineskin wrappers in the past, but if you plan to offer it pre-set-up (so that there's someone I can complain at if it doesn't work) then excellent!

# ? Jul 9, 2015 02:03

spider wisdom: Nov 4, 2011; og data bandit

Ernie. posted:

Alright. One more person say yes.

Dangit. I'm drunk and ready to drop :20bux:

on a rl. Anyone else wanna be a musketeer with me?

# ? Jul 9, 2015 02:22

andrew smash: Jun 26, 2006; smooth soul

Ernie. posted:

Not me. I have no interest in the forum badge at the dev website! Decide between the two of you.

i don't give a poo poo about the forum badge either but if nobody else wants to i will do it.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 02:33

RoboCicero: Oct 22, 2009; "I'm sick and tired of reading these posts!"

I played like four or five games of Cogmind, but definitely got pasted around the third floor each time. If I don't die to those drat Pests I die to letting a scout / engineer get away and alert half the level to my position.

One thing that would be great would be a 2x scaled UI. I have pretty crappy eyes and I would gladly trade off having to scroll around map if I could see the UI more clearly. The color difference between basic parts and neutral green civilians was also pretty close, but I was pretty tired at the time too. e: I just installed the OSX version and it looks fine -- looks like the issues I had with this was more that Bootcamp does funny things to resolutions.

That being said, I like it a lot -- rocket or grenade launchers are my absolute favorite at the moment just because they let me deal with Pests without eating a lot of durability damage. I've been trying to make a early melee build with Maces or Heavy Maces but I might need targeting computers to get my accuracy high enough to make it effective.

Also does anyone know what the special weapons like Welding Torches or Mining Lasers do? Are they intended for environment damage?

RoboCicero fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jul 9, 2015

# ? Jul 9, 2015 03:09

dis astranagant: Dec 14, 2006

I had an NPC hint that mining lasers might make it less likely to set off alarms, by making you look more like one of the various diggers that are everywhere. I found an EMP version of a grenade launcher once and it was really really nice since it didn't ruin all your salvage. Seems like you want to keep pared down to fit on flight units, the speed and ability to go over other units is really valuable.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 03:19

StarkRavingMad: Sep 27, 2001; Yams Fan

RoboCicero posted:

I played like four or five games of Cogmind, but definitely got pasted around the third floor each time. If I don't die to those drat Pests I die to letting a scout / engineer get away and alert half the level to my position.

One thing that would be great would be a 2x scaled UI. I have pretty crappy eyes and I would gladly trade off having to scroll around map if I could see the UI more clearly. The color difference between basic parts and neutral green civilians was also pretty close, but I was pretty tired at the time too. e: I just installed the OSX version and it looks fine -- looks like the issues I had with this was more that Bootcamp does funny things to resolutions.

That being said, I like it a lot -- rocket or grenade launchers are my absolute favorite at the moment just because they let me deal with Pests without eating a lot of durability damage. I've been trying to make a early melee build with Maces or Heavy Maces but I might need targeting computers to get my accuracy high enough to make it effective.

Also does anyone know what the special weapons like Welding Torches or Mining Lasers do? Are they intended for environment damage?

I believe you can dig through a wall with the mining laser. I haven't figured out if there's a special use for the welder.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 03:48

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

StarkRavingMad posted:

I believe you can dig through a wall with the mining laser. I haven't figured out if there's a special use for the welder.

You absolutely can dig through a wall with a mining laser, and other robots don't seem to care when you do it.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 03:52

Kyzrati: Jun 27, 2015; MAIN.C

StarkRavingMad posted:

Does terminal familiarity increase just by accessing them, or do you need a successful command sent? And if the latter, does each success increase it more?

Goes up on the first hack, only once per new machine. This and other hot tips in the manual :greatgift:

Benly posted:

I've had really spectacularly bad luck trying to make Wineskin wrappers in the past, but if you plan to offer it pre-set-up (so that there's someone I can complain at if it doesn't work) then excellent!

Ya that's what I'd like to do. Not a near-term thing, though :/

RoboCicero posted:

I've been trying to make a early melee build with Maces or Heavy Maces but I might need targeting computers to get my accuracy high enough to make it effective.

Early-game melee is not usually worth it in my opinion. At any point you can start getting mid-tier weapons and melee targeting computers, then you're in business.

dis astranagant posted:

I had an NPC hint that mining lasers might make it less likely to set off alarms, by making you look more like one of the various diggers that are everywhere.

Gonna have to spank that NPC. That's not true. The semi-cryptic hint you're referring to was a reminder that you'll ideally want to travel with one in the Mines. If you don't, you won't be able to dig yourself out of a cave-in before a squad comes to dig you out and beat the crap out of you.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 04:24

dis astranagant: Dec 14, 2006

He was all "you don't want THEM to see you without one" and I guess the seeing part stuck out in memory.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 04:29

Kyzrati: Jun 27, 2015; MAIN.C

dis astranagant posted:

He was all "you don't want THEM to see you without one" and I guess the seeing part stuck out in memory.

Hm, I checked the quote to make sure...

quote:

"And why aren't you carrying a mining laser?! Certainly you don't want THEM to uncover you when the ceiling comes crashing down? Here, take my spare."

He was being pretty literal there

# ? Jul 9, 2015 04:36

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

I bought Cogmind, but man it's not really newbie friendly, I know roguelikes are notorious for that, and that the Manual is there for a reason, but I would love for their to be a set of "Challenge" missions that introduce concepts one at a time with increasing complication. A Tutorial that really goes all out.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 04:42

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

I may have 2 free copies of Cogmind to give out as long as you promise to post a trip report after you try it. (I can't find proof I already gave the links away soooooooooo....)

# ? Jul 9, 2015 04:52

Kyzrati: Jun 27, 2015; MAIN.C

Turtlicious posted:

I bought Cogmind, but man it's not really newbie friendly, I know roguelikes are notorious for that, and that the Manual is there for a reason, but I would love for their to be a set of "Challenge" missions that introduce concepts one at a time with increasing complication. A Tutorial that really goes all out.

First of all, thank you!

And interesting, that's actually the first time I've heard this. Most players, even those new to the genre, have had fairly smooth introductions via the existing tutorial. I wanted it to make the game purely immersive, and hate long tutorials myself, so settled for a quick introduction that only shows the basics.

I think (?) your reaction might be coming from your previous experience as a roguelike player who wants to know how everything works right from the start, to start making optimal decisions. Cogmind was designed to not require all the little details to jump in an play--only to read the essential messages in the short tutorial area, then use the highest rated parts you find and shoot stuff. That alone can get you through about half the game before you really need to know more and make highly informed decisions.

What did everyone else think when they first started? (And Turtilicious, do you think my guess about your experience is wrong?)

# ? Jul 9, 2015 04:58

Galaga Galaxian: Apr 23, 2009; What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!

Turtlicious posted:

I may have 2 free copies of Cogmind to give out as long as you promise to post a trip report after you try it. (I can't find proof I already gave the links away soooooooooo....)

poo poo, I'll go for that, I'll even post it in the RL LP Megathread. :v:

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:04

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Kyzrati posted:

First of all, thank you!

And interesting, that's actually the first time I've heard this. Most players, even those new to the genre, have had fairly smooth introductions via the existing tutorial. I wanted it to make the game purely immersive, and hate long tutorials myself, so settled for a quick introduction that only shows the basics.

I think (?) your reaction might be coming from your previous experience as a roguelike player who wants to know how everything works right from the start, to start making optimal decisions. Cogmind was designed to not require all the little details to jump in an play--only to read the essential messages in the short tutorial area, then use the highest rated parts you find and shoot stuff. That alone can get you through about half the game before you really need to know more and make highly informed decisions.

What did everyone else think when they first started? (And Turtilicious, do you think my guess about your experience is wrong?)

Yeah, it also could be the way I learned, I didn't really just want to use the highest rated weapons right off, and I never really understood the difference between wheels v legs. (SO very beginner choices to be sure,) I kind of ran around shooting everything, but after playing a bit more, I am seeing a little bit of Sil in there, where maybe sneaking is the best option...

Idk, I might be jumping the gun, and will play some more rounds before giving a fully fleshed opinion.

e: I think you're right that I want the info front loaded, but then don't want to run through the manual. (A personal problem to be sure!)

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:11

Pseudoscorpion: Jul 26, 2011

Kyzrati posted:

First of all, thank you!

And interesting, that's actually the first time I've heard this. Most players, even those new to the genre, have had fairly smooth introductions via the existing tutorial. I wanted it to make the game purely immersive, and hate long tutorials myself, so settled for a quick introduction that only shows the basics.

I think (?) your reaction might be coming from your previous experience as a roguelike player who wants to know how everything works right from the start, to start making optimal decisions. Cogmind was designed to not require all the little details to jump in an play--only to read the essential messages in the short tutorial area, then use the highest rated parts you find and shoot stuff. That alone can get you through about half the game before you really need to know more and make highly informed decisions.

What did everyone else think when they first started? (And Turtilicious, do you think my guess about your experience is wrong?)

I would tend to agree with Turtlicious, actually. I felt like the tutorial was a little TOO bare-bones, honestly. Right now it just kinda covers items/equipment and shooting, but it'd be nice for it to be a little more transparent about stuff like heat/power/matter, character progression, alert levels, maybe hacking, etc.

I like the game a lot too, but I also get owned on the first or second floor super regularly and don't really know what I can do to improve my play, so shedding light on those systems would be much appreciated in my book!

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:15

Galaga Galaxian: Apr 23, 2009; What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!

Kyzrati posted:

What did everyone else think when they first started? (And Turtilicious, do you think my guess about your experience is wrong?)

I'll let you know in a day or two. Thanks Turtlicious! :tipshat:

BTW I miss your old moss covered turtle avatar.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:18

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Galaga Galaxian posted:

I'll let you know in a day or two. Thanks Turtlicious!

BTW I miss your old moss covered turtle avatar.

I do too, but someone spent 10$ on this, and I want them to get their money's worth

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:19

Awesome!: Oct 17, 2008; Ready for adventure!

its hosed up they didnt even link to the funny glue posts

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:23

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Yeah, if I buy a new ave, I'll add a link to the glue thread, because that really was the greatest little joke ever.

BACK ON TRACK TO COGMIND!

If I right-click a wheel or a leg, I get a list of stats. As a completely new player I can't glean anything from these stats without reading a huge paragraph of text about each one.

Propulsion Support / Penalty is really hard to understand in particular.

A little paragraph about each item, (a pain in the rear end I know,) would go a ton, like "Wheels - Good for carrying stuff, and sturdy!"

or "Legs - Good at <whatever legs are good at!>"

If I have the explanation for a stat open, I can't click a new stat to get a new explanation without closing the old window, which it's a little unclear how to do exactly. (You just click the old window, but still.)

E:2 I see a big red alert window, but cannot right click to figure out what I should be alertful about, this is a bit more vexing then it really should be.

Turtlicious fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Jul 9, 2015

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:32

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# ? May 7, 2024 08:32

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

I also can't right click terrain to learn about it.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:41

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