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What's the best liquid to put out fires? I've been using slime and it seems somewhat effective.
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Jul 21, 2015 17:37
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I was just wondering whether that guy was still in the game. I think of all the times i've actually set out to look for him i've found him twice.
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Jul 21, 2015 17:37
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amuayse posted:What's the best liquid to put out fires? I've been using slime and it seems somewhat effective. salt water, it's free and limitless
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Jul 21, 2015 17:37
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re:coqquote:sounds like the kind of Dwarf Fortress type of game I'd want to play. If I end up not liking it in the end there is a refund policy after all. quote:ADOM is, in my opionion, the missing-link between CoQ and DF. I kind of enjoy the steam forums for roguelikes
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Jul 21, 2015 17:39
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victrix posted:A perfect roguelike kills players because they hosed up. And that can be hosed up tactically or strategically. I'm going to resist the urge to be a smartass and say "yeah but playing 15 minutes of any major roguelike should dispel the notion that they're perfect immediately." The problem with this statement is made clearer when you restate it, which is to say: in a perfect roguelike, if the player makes the correct decisions, they should never die. It's really two different problems, though. If you embrace that statement, then making a perfect roguelike is mind-bogglingly difficult. Making a game in which the player could, in theory, map out the whole tree of possible moves up to the limit of their current knowledge supposes that developers can make all of those decisions salient and interesting. I've heard a lot of people decry this as being outright impossible, which I think is stupid and defeatist, but I don't actively begrudge developers who don't want to shoot for it, or think it's the only way to design a good game. More realistically, you can also reject the statement. I'm much more annoyed that designers take randomness as a given without thinking about why it's there than I am by designers who do the same with permadeath, but it does have a function. When randomness is just a gloss over a decision tree that was already trivial, it's bad design. When randomness allows a player to win (and I mean the game in its entirety, not just one encounter) 50% or 90% or even 99.9% of the time by making "correct" decisions, but causes them to lose or slams them with huge setbacks the rest of the time, that's Take the two together, and you get into (part of) what I was saying earlier about good and bad design in niche genres being almost inseparable: how do you get the desirable "fuzziness" of random outcomes without sometimes breaking the covenant with the player that you won't kill them for no good reason? Most likely you're going to have to compromise, and accept that letting them win only most of the time for making correct decisions is better than trying to design a game for an audience or tastes that you don't care about. Admitting this will also not stop me from blasting the poo poo out of Crawl devs for saying things like "the very best players of our game winning 50% of the time is too high."  (Similarly, credit where credit's due -- much as I dislike Nethack for other reasons, the best players have win rates of over 80% and win streaks of 20+ games in a row.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 18:01
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The problem with this statement is made clearer when you restate it, which is to say: in a perfect roguelike, if the player makes the correct decisions, they should never die. I totally agree, in the nerd rogue manifesto I wrote late last night and deleted, I actually ended with a half finished thought on a mental exercise about world building backwards from the endgame to the beginning to ensure it's always beatable (a maze, drawn from the exit, but absurdly more complicated/impossible). I don't think there is a perfect roguelike, I think the sentiment I was trying to express is more that one of the things that keeps drawing me back to roguelikes again and again and again while AAA titles rot on my digital shelf is a direct result of the gameplay concepts and just plain gameplay that arises from trying to craft a good or great roguelike - and a lot of that stems from the consequences of permadeath. It's really easy to say 'well, a perfect platformer is just a well designed mario game' or whatever, but roguelikes are distinctly different because of their typical fail state. The only other major game type out there that I can think to compare is, believe it or not, japanese shooters (a mostly dead, niche genre). Trying to one credit clear a good shooter is/was the almost the exact same thrill as completing a roguelike. Difference though - those games are balls hard and tend to have very few or no random elements (they also usually have a difficulty curve that isn't inverse, like a lot of roguelikes and rpgs). Think about trying to beat a randomly generated shooter - it's madness, but that's what a lot of roguelikes are. They typically shackle the randomness in various ways (ranging from completely static to partially procedural), some working better than others. Shooters have an element of execution that roguelikes don't, so even exceptional players won't beat them 100% of the time due to feeble fleshy reactions, so you trade of the execution demands of a shooter for the randomness of a roguelike and there we go, yes I am comparing ascending in Nethack to 1ccing Dodonpachi.  ==  It's really, really easy to gently caress up a game with permadeath, and really hard to make a good, challenging, fun, fair, rewarding one. I think the pursuit of anything near that ideal is a good one though, and it creates really good games (perhaps really good games with really niche appeal, but hey, I'm in that niche so its a good one  )quote:Take the two together, and you get into (part of) what I was saying earlier about good and bad design in niche genres being almost inseparable: how do you get the desirable "fuzziness" of random outcomes without sometimes breaking the covenant with the player that you won't kill them for no good reason? Most likely you're going to have to compromise, and accept that letting them win only most of the time for making correct decisions is better than trying to design a game for an audience or tastes that you don't care about. It's a tough problem for sure, and different roguelikes handle it in different ways. I'm honestly not sure that there is any such covenant amongst roguelikes as a whole though, or among roguelike devs. Roguelikes have a lot of people who make them (and enjoy them) for wildly disparate reasons. They tend to share common roots, and it's easy to project what you or I like about those roots onto the motivations of some creator or (slow rear end where the gently caress is my interesting melee crawl) creators. I do think that yes, a very well designed roguelike should be winnable near as makes no difference 100% of the time. I say that fully acknowledging that I play a lot of roguelikes as a journey, not a destination, because if you can't accept eating dirt a few thousand times, and more particularly, enjoy the process that got you there, you're probably not gonna be enjoying roguelike games anyway. But for sure the times that it feels like a game killed you capriciously are some of the worst deaths, often even worse than the 'oops, slipped on a key and instadied'. At least you can blame yourself, correctly, for the latter, as much as it sucked. But when a game doesn't give you the tools you need to fight back, or puts you in situations you can't win or escape*, or suddenly spikes the danger or resource consumption, it's usually a pretty sour experience. And sometimes it's hard to tell if it was actually a no-win situation, or you didn't see the way out, or you got yourself into that situation with poor decisions much earlier in the game. That's the good part of learning a roguelike (usually), but sometimes it's tough to see if it was just the game loving you because the dice fell poorly or you lack the experience to say that with any certainty. (*side note about escape specifically: there's a reason mobility and escape options are prized so heavily in many roguelikes, I view them as a sort of safety valve against randomness - it'd be a separate post to argue whether that's good or not, I don't much like it, even though it's a long honored tradition in most typical dungeon crawly type roguelikes) And that was, again, too many words. I need to stay away from this thread late at night or after caffeine I think.
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Jul 21, 2015 19:07
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victrix posted:nerd rogue manifesto this is actually a thing a live adult human being wrote in complete seriousness. think about that
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Jul 21, 2015 19:17
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icantfindaname posted:this is actually a thing a live adult human being wrote in complete seriousness. think about that I'm only glad it was two pages instead of 90 
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Jul 21, 2015 19:18
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crawl melee is so good please don't change it
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Jul 21, 2015 19:19
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:crawl melee is so good please don't change it I will cut you (by bumping into you repeatedly) edit: Does anyone know if there's a way to find the most popular/successful roguelikes on steam? victrix fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 19:21
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So in Qud my last few characters have started with an extra mutation, "mental healing," which has no description and doesn't seem to be doing anything.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:02
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One thing I'll note is that even though Crawl's policy of "no needed spoilers to win" is correct, the actual implementation of "yeah you should memorize what's in certain vaults or you're just gonna die" means you definitely need some.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:32
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icantfindaname posted:this is actually a thing a live adult human being wrote in complete seriousness. think about that You're in the Rogue thread, what were you expecting, a diagram?
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Jul 21, 2015 20:37
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victrix posted:edit: Does anyone know if there's a way to find the most popular/successful roguelikes on steam? It should be taken with a grain of salt but a site like this is probably your best bet.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:40
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Clever Spambot posted:It should be taken with a grain of salt but a site like this is probably your best bet. Thanks, this is a solid place to start. The roguelike tag casts a wide net, I'll have to sift through this a bit.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:47
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Beamed posted:One thing I'll note is that even though Crawl's policy of "no needed spoilers to win" is correct, the actual implementation of "yeah you should memorize what's in certain vaults or you're just gonna die" means you definitely need some. It's a design goal, not necessarily a perfect implementation. I've honestly never felt the need to look up or memorize a vault, short of Zot:5 which is always the same, but I don't win every time either.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:47
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:It's a design goal, not necessarily a perfect implementation. I've honestly never felt the need to look up or memorize a vault, short of Zot:5 which is always the same, but I don't win every time either. I think they did a pretty good job, when I beat crawl the first time it was a few weeks after I started, and I don't recall looking up much more than 'hey, what's a good newbie race/class setup' and maybe something on how skill xp worked back then? Crawl has a lot more crap in it these days, but not, I think, a lot more complexity, which is pretty good design really. Definitely a lot of stuff you can play poorly or have a really loving hard time with though. Every time I come back to check it out they've added another few gods/magic widgets/spells/enemies/vaults/etc. Though they do sometimes slice stuff out, pretty sure it's a lot more added than removed.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:51
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Lprsti99 posted:So in Qud my last few characters have started with an extra mutation, "mental healing," which has no description and doesn't seem to be doing anything. Do you have "Unfinished content" enabled in your options? Cause, yeah, there's some weird stuff in there.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:54
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Maelephant posted:Do you have "Unfinished content" enabled in your options? Cause, yeah, there's some weird stuff in there. Ah, I do recall enabling that at some point, that'll do it.
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Jul 21, 2015 21:01
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Maelephant posted:Do you have "Unfinished content" enabled in your options? Cause, yeah, there's some weird stuff in there.
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Jul 21, 2015 21:17
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victrix posted:I think they did a pretty good job, when I beat crawl the first time it was a few weeks after I started, and I don't recall looking up much more than 'hey, what's a good newbie race/class setup' and maybe something on how skill xp worked back then? The main issue with Crawl is that it's really just kind of dull. I find by about midgame you know you're gonna win or you're not and from there on it sorta becomes a slog. Probably doesn't help that is has an ultra generic setting and a whole pile of pretty uninteresting classes too. Though last time I played it (forever ago) I had lots of fun with Transmuters and the weirder classes.
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Jul 21, 2015 21:37
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Who's gonna play qud and not turn that on, whatever it it??? I can certainly understand the impulse, though in this case "unfinished" generally refers to deprecated or otherwise entirely nonfunctional content. About the only thing in there that "works" is metamorphosis, but that ability is crazy broken in its own ways.
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Jul 21, 2015 22:50
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victrix posted:I think they did a pretty good job, when I beat crawl the first time it was a few weeks after I started, and I don't recall looking up much more than 'hey, what's a good newbie race/class setup' and maybe something on how skill xp worked back then? I just wish that not everything that was slightly quirky was targeted for deletion.
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Jul 22, 2015 00:20
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Did they remove toenail golems? Because that would be worse than every other complaint I've ever lodged.
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Jul 22, 2015 00:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Did they remove toenail golems? Because that would be worse than every other complaint I've ever lodged. Still in.
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Jul 22, 2015 00:49
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dis astranagant posted:I kinda get the feeling that this is more part 1 of A Canticle for Leibowitz, where people are starting to rebuild but still pretty isolated. It really reminds me of The Gunslinger - a small town on the edge of a desert. A tall gleaming tower off in the distance. I have never been able to get into any roguelike but the evocativeness of the setting in Qud really clicked for me and now I'm having a blast.
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Jul 22, 2015 03:36
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CoQ chat: Do cells passively discharge when in an item (say a Electrobow?)
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Jul 22, 2015 03:44
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Cerepol posted:CoQ chat: So far as I know, the only passive effects for cells is passive recharging for solar cells, and I'm pretty sure they don't have to be equipped for that to happen. Carry a recoiler around and never use it and the cell in it will stay fully charged indefinitely. Fire that electrobow and the cell will slooooowly drain. Energy guns are crazy efficient.
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Jul 22, 2015 03:47
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Energy guns are crazy efficient. Except for overcharged laser pistols (6 shots on solar) and phase cannons (drain 3/4 of a chem cell in one shot, isn't even all that good).
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Jul 22, 2015 03:50
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I've crafted a regular laser pistol and got a decent amount of shots from it using a solar cell.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:23
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Just completed my first ascension of Cogmind  Can't say it's a reliable strategy, but my run was mostly finding a four-pack of Experimental Cesium Ion thrusters, then slotting in enough utility / power to offset the power drain and heat buildup while providing a modicum of protection. I had a Heavy Disruptor Cannon that I pulled out whenever I wanted to go one-on-one, but any item with a high penetration / critical would probably do just as well. Most of my run was going around overloaded (but still at 200% move), then immediately activating all my thrusters to shoot to 500% - 1000% speed and jetting through enemies as soon as possible. Finally got lucky on -1 by opening the doors first try, then puttered around the shell before I realized I should probably put my hypervelocity railgun to good use and blew it open I do wish higher rating weapons had more unique abilities though. We do get very high disruption / critical weapons, but most of the other ones were pretty hard to parse, even if they sounded  as hell.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:41
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RoboCicero posted:VICTORY! RoboCicero posted:I do wish higher rating weapons had more unique abilities though. We do get very high disruption / critical weapons, but most of the other ones were pretty hard to parse, even if they sounded  That and if you do more runs you're sure to find new and interesting things that are available. I know people who've been playing since release and they still haven't come across "certain parts." Have you seen what a Centrium Greatsword does to a robot? 
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Jul 22, 2015 05:01
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amuayse posted:I've crafted a regular laser pistol and got a decent amount of shots from it using a solar cell. Overcharged ones have more penetration and do d10+2 damage instead of just d10. The best pistols except for a unique one you won't see and maybe chain pistols you can't keep fed.
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Jul 22, 2015 05:06
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Is there any way to get the Praetorian's starter gear like the desert rifle in Qud, or is it a case of it'd be useless by the time you ran into it anyways?
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Jul 22, 2015 05:10
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Million Ghosts posted:Is there any way to get the Praetorian's starter gear like the desert rifle in Qud, or is it a case of it'd be useless by the time you ran into it anyways? Desert rifles are available pretty early and I'll call them the first decent gun. Tam often carries them and they're frequent chest fodder. You can also tinker them fairly easily if that's your thing. The rest of his starting kit is just steel equipment that isn't even all that good, just better than you're guaranteed to see around Joppa. His cloak is the only thing that might be unique, unless you roll some particularly rare injectors or something. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 05:12
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Oh, really? Guess I've just been unlucky with my chests and merchant lists so far. The gun is the only part I'm really concerned about, that penetration value early on is real nice.
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Jul 22, 2015 05:22
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You can always use a musket in a pinch. Slightly less penetration and accuracy, but decent enough early on, especially with the skill that adds knockback to pointblank shots. I've been known to murder Tam with his own muskets if he has something I really want and don't feel like waiting for. If you go poke around in the jungles you'll get shot at by quite a few desert rifles
dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 05:29
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Million Ghosts posted:The main issue with Crawl is that it's really just kind of dull. I find by about midgame you know you're gonna win or you're not and from there on it sorta becomes a slog. Probably doesn't help that is has an ultra generic setting and a whole pile of pretty uninteresting classes too. Though last time I played it (forever ago) I had lots of fun with Transmuters and the weirder classes. i quit playing a while ago because it takes so much time and there's so many areas that somehow manage to be dull as gently caress. that and the fact that there's multiple gods and whatever that still exist that are really poor mishmashes of dumb poo poo (all okawaru does is give you two things that make you hit better and gift you 90% useless poo poo. ????????????)
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Jul 22, 2015 05:38
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I want to accuse Qud of false advertisement since there is no chrome caves, only tarnished chrome sewers in Golgatha.
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Jul 22, 2015 05:43
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:i quit playing a while ago because it takes so much time and there's so many areas that somehow manage to be dull as gently caress. that and the fact that there's multiple gods and whatever that still exist that are really poor mishmashes of dumb poo poo (all okawaru does is give you two things that make you hit better and gift you 90% useless poo poo. ????????????) Pretty much, for every cool thing Crawl does (octopodes are my poo poo) it manages to miss the point on many more.
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Jul 22, 2015 05:49
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