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I'm sure Germany's just been dying to roll in another holocaust, that went so well for them last time. Pity the charismatic leader in this case is firmly pro-immigrant.
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Sep 9, 2015 16:04
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Tesseraction posted:I'm sure Germany's just been dying to roll in another holocaust, that went so well for them last time. The average poster in the Germany thread seems fairly pro-refugee but I'm not sure how representative that is of the average German's views or how Germany is gonna lean in the future. 
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Sep 9, 2015 16:16
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Klaus88 posted:The average poster in the Germany thread seems fairly pro-refugee but I'm not sure how representative that is of the average German's views or how Germany is gonna lean in the future. 59% of Germans are okay with the current number of refugees or even want to take more in and 33% want to take less. Also, 59% say they're not afraid of the refugee influx, 38% are afraid of problems coming with it (more are afraid in East Germany, less in the West). 81% are for giving more money to refugee projects in and outside the country, 70% for creating more legal ways of migration into the EU. Approval ratings for Angela Merkel stay around 65-70%.
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Sep 9, 2015 16:26
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Volkerball posted:Lebanon said this in 1948, and the Palestinian refugees are still there. The conflict in Syria could easily last another decade, and it's hard to see Iraq stabilizing if that's the case. That's not a bad thing, but let's call a spade a spade. These are stateless people who need a place to live. Don't get me wrong-- I am not saying that I think they are not welcome to seek refuge in Europe, nor that the refugee situation is the main cause (or even one of the main causes) of instability in the ME. But it contributes to this instability, to what degree I am uncertain, of course. And isn't the number of Syrian refugees orders of magnitude larger than that of the Palestinians in 1948? I thought there were 300.000 back then, whereas now an additional 25% the number of people living in Lebanon - an extra million or so - are living in poo poo conditions in refugee camps on the outskirts of the country. I could be wrong though. Unsure if the two situations are comparable. Of course, I am open to being corrected on this.
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Sep 9, 2015 16:31
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Klaus88 posted:The average poster in the Germany thread seems fairly pro-refugee but I'm not sure how representative that is of the average German's views or how Germany is gonna lean in the future. Oh I know, I'm laughing at Unknown Dyne's sureness that Germany is about to go full T4 / KZL on people when Pegida are a fringe who are often counter-protested at equal numbers. One of the ruling parties is the Christian Democrats and while they're part of the neoliberal group they actually read the Bible. Love Thy Neighbour and all that. As affirmed here: Honj Steak posted:59% of Germans are okay with the current number of refugees or even want to take more in and 33% want to take less. Also, 59% say they're not afraid of the refugee influx, 38% are afraid of problems coming with it (more are afraid in East Germany, less in the West). 81% are for giving more money to refugee projects in and outside the country, 70% for creating more legal ways of migration into the EU. Approval ratings for Angela Merkel stay around 65-70%. Germany may not be perfect (see the Greek financial situation) but its citizens are far more benevolent than, for example, my piece of poo poo jingoistic hellhole of a country. 
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Sep 9, 2015 16:35
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Ligur posted:I've said this often enough, in this thread too. So what's the problem? I looked into Finland's numbers (circa 2014) that broke down immigrants by country: http://www.migri.fi/about_us/statistics/statistics_on_asylum_and_refugees The largest source by far (more than five times higher than the next countries Russia, Ukraine, Somalia, and Nigeria) is Iraq. Everyone one of these countries, except for Russia (though it has its own flash points as well), is having a sizable insurgency or civil war occurring within its territory. These are not usual events, so you still haven't given any evidence about refugees overwhelming countries not being an unusual circumstance. You haven't given any evidence at all, other state a bunch of names without any citation or quotation, so I don't know what the purpose of that was. I could post about the benefits of immigration regarding European countries and state a bunch of names, but that's somewhat useless. If you're going to state something, back it up.
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Sep 9, 2015 16:45
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To be clear, I am not saying that all refugees go home after a conflict is resolved. What I am saying is that the high number of refugees currently crossing into Europe is unusual. This is a surge not like anything we've seen in the 21st century, and therefore definitely out of the norm.quote:Syria overtook Afghanistan to become the world's biggest source of refugees last year, while the number of people forced from their homes by conflicts worldwide rose to a record 59.5 million, the United Nations' refugee agency said Thursday. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/global-refugee-numbers-reach-alarming-levels-un-says-1.3118235 BTW, still waiting for evidence showing how a small percentage of these refugees coming to Europe will ruin it. You were already shown to be completely wrong about Lebanon and their "camps".
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Sep 9, 2015 16:54
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So, wait, is Ligur saying this situation is normal or that rather than a 'flash' it's something with longer-lasting effects?
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Sep 9, 2015 17:01
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Al-Saqr posted:Perhaps Europe should feed Poland and Hungary once again to Russia and build the Iron Curtain all over again so guys like him can enjoy reliving the experience of being refugees from hunger and destitution. Are there any numbers on the refugees Saudi Arabia and the GCC countries are taking in? They're wealthy, and have plenty of room to spare, so shouldn't they be helping out their brother arabs and muslims in a horrible moment in time?
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Sep 9, 2015 17:04
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I think it was lmaoboy1998 who said that Saudi Arabia have taken in something like 50k (or was it 500k?) but don't class them as refugees because of the way their system works. Of course that's according to them so the number is probably a little lower at least, but suggests that they have done something.
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Sep 9, 2015 17:07
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tekz posted:Are there any numbers on the refugees Saudi Arabia and the GCC countries are taking in? They're wealthy, and have plenty of room to spare, so shouldn't they be helping out their brother arabs and muslims in a horrible moment in time? Ok, how about you phone the people responsible. See how that works out. Because as you know, public opinion matters in places like that. *edit* Because of the weird thing that works there's no way to tell exactly how many refugees there are, there's no 'refugee' visa, just visitor ones. There's a lot of Syrians who live and moved to Saudi due to the crisis, but nowhere near the amount there should be given the circumstances. Also, Europe and America provides actual hopes and futures for those people because Europeans are actual citizens of those countries, refugees CAN attain permanent residence and citizenship, in the gulf at best they'd be second class visitor visas, they'll never be given actual citizenship. The only way you can ever become an actual citizen is through a royal order, and good loving luck with that. there's been families here who've gone through four generations and not been given citizenship and still have to actively renew their visas. VV Ah ok. VV Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 17:10
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Al-Saqr posted:Ok, how about you phone the people responsible. See how that works out. That wasn't a personal attack on you, I think you're one of the few posters worth reading in this forum. I was just wondering if the shitheads in charge of some of the wealthiest countries in the planet were doing anything.
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Sep 9, 2015 17:12
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Tesseraction posted:Oh I know, I'm laughing at Unknown Dyne's sureness that Germany is about to go full T4 / KZL on people when Pegida are a fringe who are often counter-protested at equal numbers. Just a minor correction. The number of counter-protesters was seldom equal t o the number of PEGIDA-followers (in Dresden itself maybe). Mostly there were 5 to 20 times more counter- than PEGIDA-protesters. Not sure how it will look in 5, 10 or 20 years, that will depend mostly on what happens politically in the next few weeks and months.
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Sep 9, 2015 17:29
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That's something I more than happy to be corrected on. Gegen Nazis~
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Sep 9, 2015 17:31
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So can someone please refute people saying that they stopped being refugees once they got outside the war torn areas? I mean they are targetting the uk and germany for a reason right? Jobs? I mean I would like to move to Germany and get a high paying job too but that doesnt automatically make it ok. Neither does being a refugee flat out make it ok for them to flat out move anywhere they want to. This is not a xenephobia thing. There is a limit to how much countries can accept. The germans couldnt bail out the loving Greeks. I can't imagine how many of them would love to immigrate to Germany. Some might even do it. Now is there chance. Just how many refugees can Germany take before the good jobs are all taken up and we start seeing wages lower. That has real impact. It happened in america whether you like it or not. Why do the refugees deserve free money and the Greeks don't? At leas the greeks are secular socialists. These refugees could all be loving sharia fascists for what we know. Who wants to loving subsidize someone whose only going to make politics in the country more conservative. Solidarity should be reserved for comrades in the revolutionary struggle.
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Sep 9, 2015 18:20
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Greeks can move to Germany and work, though. Or to anywhere else in the EU. Personally, I think helping destitute people fleeing a warzone where their lives are literally in danger is more important than making sure people in a first-world country have it a bit easier, but I guess that's just my German heritage coming to the forefront.
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Sep 9, 2015 18:25
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PerpetualSelf posted:So can someone please refute people saying that they stopped being refugees once they got outside the war torn areas? 2/10, gave yourself away with the Sharia fascists line, would not be trolled by this poster again. Tesseraction posted:
I feel like the statement "Commonwealth of the United Kingdom Countries have serious Racial relations issues" has a fair weight of truth behind it, but I'm an America, so I really shouldn't be throwing rocks from a glass house. 
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Sep 9, 2015 18:32
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Is it too much to say "refugees are coming in large numbers and keeping them in the 'first safe country' is an unfair strain on those countries because, again, the numbers are large "? Spread the refugees around with a sharing system, get the UK to agree to take in some number of refugees that originally landed in Greece or what have you. Is there going to be, like, a summit on this at some point?
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Sep 9, 2015 18:32
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Are you claiming sharia fascists dont exist?
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Sep 9, 2015 18:33
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PerpetualSelf posted:Are you claiming sharia fascists dont exist? Are you claiming they all are sharia facists? Forgive me, but considering most of these people are fleeing a group trying to institute such, why should I believe your claims? Or are you already stuck on the idea that All Muslim = Sharia Facists? And considering your claims, most of these refugees don't seem to be enforcing Sharia law among themselves very well... Seriously, you're an rear end in a top hat
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Sep 9, 2015 18:36
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Jack B Nimble posted:Is there going to be, like, a summit on this at some point? There is a meeting of the EU foreign ministers scheduled for the second half of October but some are saying this is too late. The UK however wouldn't be influenced by this as they don't participate in the common EU refugee politics.
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Sep 9, 2015 18:39
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Sep 9, 2015 18:52
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The evidence employed right now against accepting further refugees is that ISIS has claimed 5000 holy warriors have already infiltrated Europa since the crisis began.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:01
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Nonsense posted:The evidence employed right now against accepting further refugees is that ISIS has claimed 5000 holy warriors have already infiltrated Europa since the crisis began. ISIS claims a lot of things. Doesn't make them valid.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:03
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CommieGIR posted:ISIS claims a lot of things. Doesn't make them valid. I think it's rather funny people who are rather xenophobic and anti-Muslim online, who post about constantly killing/torturing ISIS, are prepared to take their bullshit very passionately at face value if it enables their own bigotry. Afterall: "GERMANY TAKING IN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ISLAMOFASCISTS" "THIS IS UNSUSTAINABLE, GERMANY WILL CHANGE, MERKEL SAID SO"
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Sep 9, 2015 19:05
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I, for one, welcome our new Fourth Islamic Reich overlords.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:15
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heil ackbar
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Sep 9, 2015 19:33
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Nonsense posted:The evidence employed right now against accepting further refugees is that ISIS has claimed 5000 holy warriors have already infiltrated Europa since the crisis began. CommieGIR posted:ISIS claims a lot of things. Doesn't make them valid. ISIS, in October 2014 posted:ISIS has released another video featuring British hostage John Cantlie, this time from the hotly-contested Syrian border town Kobani. 
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Sep 9, 2015 19:37
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So apparently Denmark suspended all rail-links to Germany.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:46
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murphyslaw posted:Don't get me wrong-- I am not saying that I think they are not welcome to seek refuge in Europe, nor that the refugee situation is the main cause (or even one of the main causes) of instability in the ME. But it contributes to this instability, to what degree I am uncertain, of course. The number you cite is for the number of Palestinians displaced in 1967. Roughly three times as many Palestinians were displaced in 1948. The demographic impact on neighboring countries was immense - displaced Palestinians and their descendants make up literally half of Jordan's population. They were all assured that it would be temporary too, since the international community made a lot of noise about having all the refugees returned to Israel. There were UN resolutions about it and everything! Given how all that actually turned out in the end, I'm not exactly shocked that Middle Eastern countries aren't enthusiastic about shouldering yet another massive refugee crisis for the sake of much larger and richer Western nations.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:51
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SaltyJesus posted:So apparently Denmark suspended all rail-links to Germany. Good. They're protecting Sweden from themselves. http://www.friatider.se/dubbelv-ldt-kt-utanf-r-asylhotell-nu-topsas-boende Double rape outside immigrant hotel in August and police are DNA testing migrants. Toxxing myself if they find that the rapists are not migrants (or "refugees" if you want to be a snowflake about it).
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Sep 9, 2015 19:57
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CommieGIR posted:Are you claiming they all are sharia facists? Forgive me, but considering most of these people are fleeing a group trying to institute such, why should I believe your claims? Explain why secular democracy has failed to take root in any middle eastern country and why free elections in iraq, afganistan, and Egypt has only lead to people like the Muslim Brotherhood winning. Explain why the only hope for secular government in the middle east was the B'ath party and when the United States stepped in and removed or opposed B'ath leaders the forces that took over were mostly Sharia and those seeking Democratic Secularism were minorities. We are in a 4 way civil war where two of the combatant parties want Sharia law in one form or another. The third is a secular dictator and the fourth doesn't have a chance in hell of winning. There are secular Muslims out there. But they're in loving Iran. If this was the us civil war and the refugees were a bunch of southerners fleeing the south half this forum would be going on and on about how they deserved what they got for being redneck hillbilly traitor racists that enabled slavery and genocide. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 19:58
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PerpetualSelf posted:Explain why secular democracy has failed to take root in any middle eastern country and why free elections in iraq, afganistan, and Egypt has only lead to people like the Muslim Brotherhood winning.  Do you have any other unfounded claims you'd like to make?PerpetualSelf posted:If this was the us civil war and the refugees were a bunch of southerners fleeing the south half this forum would be going on and on about how they deserved what they got for being redneck hillbilly traitor racists that enabled slavery and genocide. Wait a second...isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing? You threw all the refugees under the bus for a power vacuum that they neither wanted nor created, you rear end in a top hat. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 20:06
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PerpetualSelf posted:blargh Cool, perhaps you would like to prove these assertions? I mean, without a single source to your name, this is about as convincing as me saying that the moon is made of cheese and my left sock is monarch of all the world.
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Sep 9, 2015 20:11
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Half of Europe didn't have democracy until 25 years aso and Europeans are bitching about migrants not being democratic enough in culture
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Sep 9, 2015 20:34
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murphyslaw posted:my left sock is monarch of all the world. Hey what you and Lizzie do behind closed doors is none of our business, Philip.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:06
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Oh why not I'll bite.PerpetualSelf posted:[1] So can someone please refute people saying that they stopped being refugees once they got outside the war torn areas? [1] Refuge is a term referring to safety. Either a place of state-of-being. Being in a 'safe' place insofar as you aren't being bombed is one form of refuge, but if that safe place is a stretch of arid land you're soon going to die. As it happens, humanity tends to build settlements in places where resources can be practically obtained. Fled a theatre of battle? Stopping at the next settlement most likely means that one will be next. In general you'll tend to go a country whose army isn't in the shitter since you'll have a better chance of physical safety as well as well-being. [2] Between the BBC broadcasting in Arabic (MSA as far as I'm aware) and the commonality of English speakers around the world, it came seem like a sensible choice. As for Germany? Since they're the most openly humanitarian country in this business (Sweden apparently a close second) it makes sense to aim for it. [3] Actually it's perfectly okay to go to Germany and get a high paying job. Germany strongly believes in the free movement of people around the EU, and they're not stingy about the rest of the world either. [4] That limit is not going to be reached that easily. In fact currently the world economy is performing under-par for the resources on offer. [5] The Germans could easily bail out the Greeks, and could afford a full debt write-off. They just don't see why they should - they see Greece's economic woes as brought upon themselves and don't see why Europe should pick up the bill for their own lovely policies. I personally disagree with Germany's hardline stance but they could easily handle Greek default. They're mostly not letting Greece default because it would shatter the Eurozone's fundamental principle of 'once you're in, you don't go out.' [6] Germany is in a position to grow its jobs market and in fact increase in a civilian population increases the number of jobs that are needed. Countries bigger and more densely populated than Germany survive just fine with their economies in worse positions than Germany. [7] They are not getting 'free money' they are getting a capital investment of humanitarian aid in exchange for a) warm fuzzies of the population b) the intention to have them become net-positives to the Germany economy and society. Greece's capital investment was their place in the Eurozone, and their previous governments fudged the figures to get into the Eurozone and also to failed to actually rebuild the economy. From Germany's perspective the refugee crisis is both a humanitarian situation and economic opportunity, and the Greek situation to them is a bad investment they're determined to make money back on. [8] Greece is not a 'secular socialist' country. It has a strong Orthodox Christian population and is diverse country. The secularity of the constitution* (and current government) is irrelevant. Likewise Islam under the second Caliph, Umar, was one of the earliest examples of a welfare state that would put many modern democracies to shame. [9] You don't get to choose the make-up of a democracy. Humanitarianism should transcend personal politics. [10] Solidarity is about banding together as people for the common good. Leaving people to starve because they aren't 'the right kind of people' is not solidarity, it is barbarity. e: *Well, actually Eastern Orthodoxy is the official state religion, it's just not forced on the population Tesseraction fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 21:31
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Shageletic posted:I looked into Finland's numbers (circa 2014) that broke down immigrants by country: http://www.migri.fi/about_us/statistics/statistics_on_asylum_and_refugees I don't know man. The Somalia warzone has been debunked a billion times. Nobody is leaving there because of that. Or very few. They are out to make money. Which is fine. Anyway if doubling, quadrupling, or having even the same amount or 150% the number of immigrants to the eurozone every year, year on year out, or whatever is "normal" in your opinion, and that you think it has been going down for the past 200 years or the past 10 years, I don't know what to say. Happy trails, I guess! quote:I could post about the benefits of immigration regarding European countries and state a bunch of names, but that's somewhat useless. If you're going to state something, back it up. Please do post how housing people who can't find a job is profitable to the country housing them, especially a welfare-state. There have been 0 studies this far that proves this is the case, and there won't be any. I want to believe housing people who are unemployed is somehow a great thing for Norway, Sweden or Finland but just can't find any proof.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:34
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Ligur posted:I don't know man. The Somalia warzone has been debunked a billion times. Nobody is leaving there because of that. Or very few. They are out to make money. Which is fine. It has? I mean I just literally searched 'Somalia war debunked' and all the results cross out 'debunked' in the results due to lack of them. Do you have something to back this up?
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Sep 9, 2015 21:38
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Nonsense posted:I think it's rather funny people who are rather xenophobic and anti-Muslim online, who post about constantly killing/torturing ISIS, are prepared to take their bullshit very passionately at face value if it enables their own bigotry. I think it's "funny" the people who laugh at the idea that stuff like the Charlie Hebdo shootings are about Islamic terrorism at the same time think Islamic movements are not a trouble at all, and scoff at the idea it could cause trouble in Europe (like a migrant wave, if nothing else). The nazis are probably the scourge of the realm, right. For example ISIS? Hell no, that's not about Islamic fundies and their Caliphate. Nothing to worry about. And if you worry about it? Islamophobic! And possibly racist too! They just drove off millions of Syrians out of the country. But there's surely nothing to worry about with Islamists anywhere. How does that train of thought even work? I'm not saying you think like above, but still, I find it almost magical that even with ISIS wrecking poo poo, people refuse to belive there might be a bit of a problem with Islamism around right now and that it might not be contained to areas under straight ISIS control today.
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