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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/delta-state-university-active-shooter Another one.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:50
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Capfalcon posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/delta-state-university-active-shooter This is what liberal college trigger warnings do.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:51
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JT Jag posted:Sanders pushed for gay marriage and marched in gay pride parades in the 1980s. Which is why we had gay marriage legalized in the 1980s! No, we didn't? Well, maybe it led to gay marriage being legal in Vermont in the 1980's? No, it didn't? So, Bernie being absolutely right on the issue led to nothing whatsoever? While Bill Clinton, being only moderate on the issue and willing to only push so far for gay rights actually got elected nationally and implemented DADT over witch hunts and dishonorable discharges; appointed openly gay people to positions; and increased funding to stop AIDS? Meh, didn't bring full communism immediately, obviously evil and must be punished
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Sep 14, 2015 17:52
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this_is_hard posted:Remind me for a sec, what was the vote tally for the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002? Yeah, that totally shows that his foreign policy views over the last decade haven't been more or less inline with the rest of the Democratic party, and totally shows that he would be Substantially Different On Foreign Policy to the contrary of his stated positions on such.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:52
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I think we as Bernie supporters should stop talking about Hillary Clinton, Bernie himself has made it a point to not attack her and I think we should respect that. Hillary supporters should do the same RE:Bernie, it should be about the ideas not who evolved first on them.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:52
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Well, BI NOW GAY LATER, I left my brain scanner in my other pants but if I had to speculate I would guess that there is at least one human being who will not vote for Hillary Clinton because she is a woman but will not openly admit it. It will be difficult to find them without my brain scanner though, because there are lots of perfectly good non-ovarian reasons to not vote for her such as her scrooge mcduck vault full of Citigroup dollars, her support of the PATRIOT ACT, and Iraq War, and the fact that there is an actual leftish candidate running in the primary to vote for.BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Yeah, that totally shows that his foreign policy views over the last decade haven't been more or less inline with the rest of the Democratic party, and totally shows that he would be Substantially Different On Foreign Policy to the contrary of his stated positions on such. Yeah, if you really think about it the Iraq war wasn't so bad anyway.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:53
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Eschers Basement posted:Which is why we had gay marriage legalized in the 1980s! Bernie was helpful in getting Vermont's Civil Union law passed.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:55
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Maarek posted:Well, BI NOW GAY LATER, I left my brain scanner in my other pants but if I had to speculate I would guess that there is at least one human being who will not vote for Hillary Clinton because she is a woman but will not openly admit it. It will be difficult to find them without my brain scanner though, because there are lots of perfectly good non-ovarian reasons to not vote for her such as her scrooge mcduck vault full of Citigroup dollars, her support of the PATRIOT ACT, and Iraq War, and the fact that there is an actual leftish candidate running in the primary to vote for. Hmm, yeah. I was totally saying everyone who is a Bernie Sander supporter is a misogynist. Maarek posted:Yeah, if you really think about it the Iraq war wasn't so bad anyway. Yeah, totally my point. Oh right, only 100% Ideologically Correct Candidates Allowed. Carry on.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:56
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
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Sep 14, 2015 17:57
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D_I posted:I think we as Bernie supporters should stop talking about Hillary Clinton, Bernie himself has made it a point to not attack her and I think we should respect that. Hillary supporters should do the same RE:Bernie, it should be about the ideas not who evolved first on them. The USPOL thread focuses quite a bit on the friction between the business wing of the GOP and the reactionary Trump supporters and I think it would be a big mistake to ignore the same thing going on in the Democratic party.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:58
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's not how I'm reading this at all. He's worked with these socialists for years, and is asking for them to provide public cover for what he wants to do, knowing that as President he can't just do what his heart tells him. That's kind of what Sanders is doing when he says there needs to be a political revolution, not just him getting the nomination. FDR was a political chameleon that changed his colors depending on who was in the room with him. He was conservative minded while Governor of New York and it took him taking over the country in the pits of the Great Depression and a voraciously powerful and insistent left wing political wave that he sought to head off for him to turn leftwards. There is nothing wrong with this. The people who benefited by his policies sure weren't complaining. What Sanders is doing is applaudable. His supporters going on about how bad Hillary is....not so much.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:58
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Andichu, you're saying that people who voted for Obama expecting that he'd be a progressive 'weren't paying attention'. That's probably true, they weren't. Maybe, faced with a similar situation this primary, with an actual leftist as an alternative, those same people are paying attention this time.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:58
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D_I posted:Shouldn't we strive to elect whoever is closest to 100%? I mean if these are the values we really believe in? Here's my point, if you want to talk about Hillary on the issues -- fine! But don't devolve into what is essentially a Republican talking point about her being  If you have legitimate issues with her stated positions, great! Let's talk about them, but don't start with the assumption that the positions she's put forth aren't more or less where she'll govern from as president. JT Jag posted:Andichu, you're saying that people who voted for Obama expecting that he'd be a progressive 'weren't paying attention'. That's probably true, they weren't. That would be fine if they were actually talking about issues and not turning this into "but I just don't think she's being /honest/ about who she says she is." Funny thing... politicians generally end up governing, or trying to govern on, what they say they will (there's actual data about it!) BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 14, 2015 |
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Sep 14, 2015 17:59
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Maarek posted:The USPOL thread focuses quite a bit on the friction between the business wing of the GOP and the reactionary Trump supporters and I think it would be a big mistake to ignore the same thing going on in the Democratic party.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:00
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Oh right, only 100% Ideologically Correct Candidates Allowed. Carry on. Supporting a war that has cost us trillions of dollars, thousands of lives, and resulted in the death or displacement of countless more and the rise of the Islamic State is not really something you can just call a mulligan on. I'm not a single issue voter but if I have my pick between someone who voted against that and someone who voted for that I'm gonna lean to the former. D_I posted:Yeah but this debate is more about electability vs ideological consistency which I believe to be strawmen. It is not really about that at all, it is about the priorities of the various blocs in the Democratic party in my opinion.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:01
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But she only supported the Iraq war because it was popular.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:03
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Franco Potente posted:Why respond to a question, when I can simply shift the goalposts! what was the question?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:04
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this_is_hard posted:what was the question? Why is Bernie a warhawk and murderer of Levant peoples?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Politics change based in part on the decisions and actions of leaders. We want a leader who will consistently push for change, not just one who follows the wave then tries to take credit. A ... lead-er, if you will. This is it exactly. Bernie is a leader. He has a long history of leadership. He did a lot to shape modern Vermont politics, he's advocated for change and gotten it, he's convinced people there was a better way. I've asked this question a couple times now because I honestly don't know - what has Hillary actually accomplished from a leadership perspective? What is something she took and ran with and changed minds about? It's funny, Hillary is the candidate with the most name recognition by far, but the fact that I don't really support her is largely due to my actually knowing very little about her accomplishments. She seems like a perfectly skilled politician who deserves an effective position in high government, but she's got that. I don't know what it is about her that would actually be considered Presidential, though? What's her executive experience and how did it turn out? BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Oh right, only 100% Ideologically Correct Candidates Allowed. Carry on. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Sep 14, 2015 |
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Sep 14, 2015 18:06
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My support for Bernie has nothing to do with Hillary, though I don't like the dismissive tone of most Hillary supporters. Bernie supporters could also be more respectful to Hillary.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:06
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Here's my point, if you want to talk about Hillary on the issues -- fine! But don't devolve into what is essentially a Republican talking point about her being Am I reading this wrong or did you just ask everyone to stop questioning the motives of politicians and just assuming they will do exactly what they will say?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:06
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:That would be fine if they were actually talking about issues and not turning this into "but I just don't think she's being /honest/ about who she says she is." Some of the people oppose Hillary now are the same people who supported Obama eight years ago but were disappointed by how he actually governed, and don't trust her to follow through on her new leftish promises. Obama didn't, after all, and why would she be any different?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:07
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Maarek posted:Supporting a war that has cost us trillions of dollars, thousands of lives, and resulted in the death or displacement of countless more and the rise of the Islamic State is not really something you can just call a mulligan on. I'm not a single issue voter but if I have my pick between someone who voted against that and someone who voted for that I'm gonna lean to the former. I'd be less likely to be snippy about bringing that up if it hadn't been adjudicated extensively in 2008 when she talked about regretting the vote, along with most of the other elected Democrats saying the same. I think getting right the first time is important, but on the other-hand it's also of note that she did admit it was a mistake and learned from it. JT Jag posted:That's the core of the issue though. In 2008 progressives rallied around Obama's message of hope, change and progress. He made a lot of campaign promises that were aimed at the left Democratic bloc. And after becoming President, he governed as a centrist, and famously left his most fervent supporters in the cold, especially during the various budget negotiations when he put major welfare cuts on the table. Then they should be a little more honest about it not just in the course of debate but with themselves. They also need to ask themselves how they think a less pragmatic politician is going to achieve any of their stated goals. So do they think that Bernie Sanders is going to get Republicans in congress to go along with him on anything? BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Sep 14, 2015 |
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Sep 14, 2015 18:07
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Nonsense posted:Why is Bernie a warhawk and murderer of Levant peoples? He's a US politician?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:08
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
If we want anything passed we need control of the legislative apparatus and that means getting voters informed and to the polls.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:11
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Maarek posted:Am I reading this wrong or did you just ask everyone to stop questioning the motives of politicians and just assuming they will do exactly what they will say? It's a good idea to do so, as they tend to fulfill their promises.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:12
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Maarek posted:Am I reading this wrong or did you just ask everyone to stop questioning the motives of politicians and just assuming they will do exactly what they will say? I am saying that you shouldn't start off from that point of view, and that generally, you guys seem to read it into every little situation. It's called, confirmation bias. Like why do you think Hillary would risk substantially alienating her voting block by going against her stated positions on issues?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:12
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D_I posted:What about the last 7 years makes us think Republicans will work with anyone? People are sick of making concessions to a party that won't concede to basic facts. It's time to clear them out, but people think 2006 didn't happen or something.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:13
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Sanders' Israel policy is indefensible and bad.this_is_hard posted:He's a US politician? But also entirely unexpected in this country, sadly.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:14
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Nonsense posted:It's time to clear them out, but people think 2006 didn't happen or something. To be frank, the electoral map makes a Dem take over like the one we had in '06 relatively difficult, and having Bernie on the ballot in '16 isn't going to suddenly improve our fortunes.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:14
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Lol if you think Bernie is going to do anything different from Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition by sucking actual leftists into the Democratic party when Hilldawg wins the nomination. Then their critiques can be disarmed and forever ignored. Also lol if you forgot that Hillary had an actual non-Heritage Foundation healthcare plan proposal back in 2008 that was miles better than the Obamacare fiasco. Finally lol if you consider yourself a "leftist" and devote any amount of time or resources to national electoral politics instead of state and local electoral politics, or better yet, actual movement politics.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:15
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:To be frank, the electoral map makes a Dem take over like the one we had in '06 relatively difficult, and having Bernie on the ballot in '16 isn't going to suddenly improve our fortunes.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:15
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:So do they think that Bernie Sanders is going to get Republicans in congress to go along with him on anything?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:15
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D_I posted:If Bernie wins the nomination you don't think that in itself is a sign of a changing paradigm? No because presidential elections are more structurally favorable to the Dems than House elections, which are substantially more favorable to Republicans thanks to 8 years of fuckery at the state level. JT Jag posted:The Republicans won't go along with anyone. In fact, they'd probably be more obstructionist against long-time alleged antichrist Hillary Clinton than they would with Sanders. The status quo of Federal Government now is the Democratic President ruling by executive order and judicial appointment, occasionally seeing help from a Democratic Senate, opposed by a ridiculously obstructionist Republican House. And it will be this way until either the Republicans win a Presidential election (god forbid) or we see some sort of anti-gerrymandering court ruling.  if you think Republicans would work with him as President.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:16
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Lol if you think Bernie is going to do anything different from Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition by sucking actual leftists into the Democratic party when Hilldawg wins the nomination. Then their critiques can be disarmed and forever ignored. Oh no, Bernie is going to put an end to viable leftist third parties! 
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Sep 14, 2015 18:18
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Fair enough, but was your point that republicans would be more likely to work with Hillary than Bernie? Because that seems tone deaf.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:18
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
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Sep 14, 2015 18:18
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Also lol if you forgot that Hillary had an actual non-Heritage Foundation healthcare plan proposal back in 2008 that was miles better than the Obamacare fiasco. She had an even better one back in the 90s that was better than any major party nominee has advocated since. It'd be cool to see that Hillary again.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:19
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:they have gay detectors set up now like in dishonored haha little do they know i'm bi, they're gay-dars will have no effect on me
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Sep 14, 2015 18:19
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
Right, as opposed to noted friend-of-the-right, Hillary Clinton? Which Democratic nominee would they work with?
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Sep 14, 2015 18:20
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