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Have I missed anything in the last four pages or is it still just ideological purity slapfights? Edit:gently caress, this would be the start of a new page.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:31
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It's fun that I now associate the cessation of the federal government with tortilla chips and salsa. Has to be chunky salsa though.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:31
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Maarek posted:I think this forum serially underestimates the turnout effect of a person running on a platform that is vocally focused on raising the minimum wage to $15/hr. i'm not sure it's clear that effect will be huge in this country. A huge number of people have internalized the idea that they don't deserve that much money/their employer will go out of business/why should mcdonalds workers make as much as paramedics I mean, I want to believe what you wrote is correct, but 
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Sep 14, 2015 20:33
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Fried Chicken posted:Bush has dropped from #2 in New Hampshire Walker's at 2% in the above poll and under the margin of error (so under 3%) in the FL Gravis poll  Bush and Walker sucking wind in these polls makes me oh so happy. Supposedly even Freep isn't a big fan of the extreme anti-labor platform Walker put out today so I'm not sure how he's going to get his numbers out of the toilet any time soon.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:33
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Trabisnikof posted:I'd be happy to see some examples otherwise. I never said my view of the state of American politics was a particularly positive one. Obama's willingness to cave on pretty much anything the GOP has wanted has worked out great hasn't it. He accomplished a few mediocre achievements prior to the 2010 elections(PPACA, auto bailout, lukewarm stimulus), then despite his willingness to cave on anything they wanted for the next 4 years he still didn't accomplish jack poo poo of any agenda he might have had. We had to be loving saved by their own fanatics from him giving the GOP a fulfillment of a huge wishlist of things they want, in exchange for...nothing.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:33
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Taerkar posted:The biggest challenge facing Bernie in the general is that the GOP could run a serious version of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBkTLNydHcQ and we'd have a pretty high chance of inaugurating Bush III in 2017. Besides, polls show that young voters don't give a poo poo about labeling things socialist, it's not like they remember the Cold War.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:33
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Soonmot posted:Have I missed anything in the last four pages or is it still just ideological purity slapfights? Nope, still people who are voting for Sanders in the primary and Hillary in the general screaming about how terrible Hillary is at people who are going to vote for Sanders in the primary and Hillary in the general.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:34
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Khisanth Magus posted:Obama's willingness to cave on pretty much anything the GOP has wanted has worked out great hasn't it. He accomplished a few mediocre achievements prior to the 2010 elections(PPACA, auto bailout, lukewarm stimulus), then despite his willingness to cave on anything they wanted for the next 4 years he still didn't accomplish jack poo poo of any agenda he might have had. We had to be loving saved by their own fanatics from him giving the GOP a fulfillment of a huge wishlist of things they want, in exchange for...nothing. Just because Obama got less than perfect deals isn't in fact proof that a better deal was to be had. Eschers Basement posted:Nope, still people who are voting for Sanders in the primary and Hillary in the general screaming about how terrible Hillary is at people who are going to vote for Sanders in the primary and Hillary in the general. Hey man, I'm voting Clinton in both.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:35
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Trabisnikof posted:I'd be happy to see some examples otherwise. I never said my view of the state of American politics was a particularly positive one. A bad auto-correct. I meant seriously.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:35
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here is the first right wing talking head losing his poo poo that the mob gets a voice instead of his preferred dictator being handed the nomination/presidency
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Sep 14, 2015 20:35
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I think he should try to add a pipe to his look for 2020, that might push him over the top.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:36
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JT Jag posted:They've been calling Barack Obama a socialist for eight years. The word is starting to lose the impact it once had. I'm not sure this is necessarily true. It's one thing to call someone a socialist, but it might be a little more impactful when the person agrees with it, and it's not just insane hyperbolic partisan fearmongering. It might be true, but it also might not. Don't think we really know.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:37
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Fried Chicken posted:here is the first right wing talking head losing his poo poo that the mob gets a voice instead of his preferred dictator being handed the nomination/presidency whiny Perry supporter said posted:The GOP needed Rick Perry in these debates. Not because he is particularly great at debating — he's not. Man, when even someone having a meltdown over you not being picked thinks you're bad at debating...
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Sep 14, 2015 20:38
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Fried Chicken posted:Oh, and shutdown update: tentative plan is haw House vote on bill to defund Planned Parenthood then a clean CR in rapid succession, so the former dies at the Senate and the latter goes forward. Senate will have a vote on defunding Planned Parenthood and a 20 week abortion ban to appease the conservatives and show they don't have the votes, then do a clean CR. Mark Meadows has been hinting that this is the trigger he'll use to get his bill to oust Boehner on the floor.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:39
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Joementum posted:Mark Meadows has been hinting that this is the trigger he'll use to get his bill to oust Boehner on the floor. Do the Tortilla Coasters have a candidate in mind to replace Boehner, or is that thinking too far ahead for them?
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Sep 14, 2015 20:41
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Maarek posted:I think this forum serially underestimates the turnout effect of a person running on a platform that is vocally focused on raising the minimum wage to $15/hr. If the past pattern holds a majority of those making between $7.26/hr and $15/hr will oppose the hike.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:41
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Bob Ojeda posted:I'm not sure this is necessarily true. It's one thing to call someone a socialist, but it might be a little more impactful when the person agrees with it, and it's not just insane hyperbolic partisan fearmongering. It might be true, but it also might not. Don't think we really know.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:43
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Franco Potente posted:Do the Tortilla Coasters have a candidate in mind to replace Boehner, or is that thinking too far ahead for them? I'm assuming two or three of them will try to run and split the vote, like last time.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:44
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Taerkar posted:The biggest challenge facing Bernie in the general is that the GOP could run a serious version of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBkTLNydHcQ and we'd have a pretty high chance of inaugurating Bush III in 2017. This is the reigning logic, but I think the assumption that politics is fought over a bell-shaped curve is misleading, especially with the increased polarization of politics. Additionally, I think the middles of the two groups of likely voters are quite apathetic (for good reasons), and are much more driven by the more engaged "radicals" at the end. Particularly in the Democratic party. I feel Obama's success was actually in getting the left energized, which probably did more to make sure the middle voted. Moderate democrats may not be screaming for full communism now like we are, but they generally want to vote for a candidate that makes them feel "good" than one they have to suck up and vote for. Clinton is not going to be that candidate, and likely will never be that candidate because she has quite literally been the target of a vast right-wing conspiracy. I think the "socialism" card might be just as weak as the "race" card turned out to be with Obama. Yes, the Republican base frothed at the mouth, and surely some Jessecrats finally gave up on the Democrats, but the increased support of black voters and young voters more than made up for that. Now, that being said, Clinton definitely has a better reputation with black voters than Sanders, and has a benefit there. I think either candidate can win, given enough support from the main party. The important thing to educate on will be the precarious need for the veto pen against the insanity in Congress, and short of literal Mecha-Hitler, any voter that generally supports/tolerates the Democrats would be foolish to not vote for them in the general.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:44
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Bob Ojeda posted:I'm not sure this is necessarily true. It's one thing to call someone a socialist, but it might be a little more impactful when the person agrees with it, and it's not just insane hyperbolic partisan fearmongering. It might be true, but it also might not. Don't think we really know. Yeah, there is a difference - it's not nearly as sticky when its true, because pointing out things someone gladly admits to just hands them control over shaping the narrative. Obama being a Kenyan Muslim was sticky because it was a big fight and became an ideological issue and mark of tribal membership. That doesn't work if the other party says "oh yeah totally". Which isn't to say they won't hammer him on the socialism at all, but I think if they end up demonizing him successfully it's going to be on something else his followers will feel obliged to deny, like saying he's an atheist hippy or something.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:45
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Maarek posted:I think this forum serially underestimates the turnout effect of a person running on a platform that is vocally focused on raising the minimum wage to $15/hr. Sanders is good and important exactly to the extant his campaign ties into and feeds these other movements. His candidacy is bad to the extent is sucks energy, organizations, and people out of those movements and into the party apparatus where they will just get colonized. Interestingly that ability to feed into existing movements is also the one thing that he needs to do to succeed as a conventional candidate. He can only win by appealing to nonwhites who are understandably skeptical about his many chauvinistic pasty white nerd supporters. And its very silly to lose sight of both candidate's good and bad aspects. Hillary actually does have a better record on healthcare or women than Obama did. At the same time she's a slimy plutocrat. Similarly Bernie has a lot of support from terrible chauvinist whiteboys and is 90% indistinguishable from any other Democrat, but his class politics are pretty good.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:45
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Unprincipled = "evolved her views" BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Here's my point, if you want to talk about Hillary on the issues -- fine! But don't devolve into what is essentially a Republican talking point about her being This is from three hours ago so please forgive me for dredging up an old post (and I'm sorry to continue the slapfight) but these accusations are completely bullshit. Andichu here you go, an extensively sourced comparison of the two on issues I find important, as well as a pretty good illustration of why Clinton is a literal lizard person. At least this is some actual concrete stuff instead of whining about ideological purity and strategical voting. Actual issues!  Mental gymnastics, eh?  You're so much smarter than that Andichu, why stoop down to this level?edit: Here's a site with clickable hyperlinks if you don't feel like typing in all those goo.gl addresses. Brannock fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Sep 14, 2015 |
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Sep 14, 2015 20:47
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Brannock posted:This is from three hours ago so please forgive me for dredging up an old post (and I'm sorry to continue the slapfight) but these accusations are completely bullshit. Andichu here you go, an extensively sourced comparison of the two on issues I find important, as well as a pretty good illustration of why Clinton is a literal lizard person. At least this is some actual concrete stuff instead of whining about ideological purity and strategical voting. Actual issues! no but see HRC expressed that she was sorry for some of these votes and she has learned from her mistakes and blasdjgalsdgjasl;dgjas
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Sep 14, 2015 20:48
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JT Jag posted:"Sanders is just being honest, good on him, I can respect that. That Hillary is a socialist too but she's scared to be honest about it." Do you have any evidence that's what people actually think, beyond Republicans using it as an attack on Hillary GlyphGryph posted:Yeah, there is a difference - it's not nearly as sticky when its true, because pointing out things someone gladly admits to just hands them control over shaping the narrative. Obama being a Kenyan Muslim was sticky because it was a big fight and became an ideological issue and mark of tribal membership. As long as the American people still hate the idea of socialism, or more specifically the word 'socialist', I think it would be an issue whether or not he admits it. There's only so much you can do to control the narrative at that point. I have no idea whether or not that's true, and I haven't really looked into it, but it does seem to be the conventional wisdom.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:50
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Bush and Walker sucking wind in these polls makes me oh so happy. Supposedly even Freep isn't a big fan of the extreme anti-labor platform Walker put out today so I'm not sure how he's going to get his numbers out of the toilet any time soon. I would love to see some quotes because that might just be their hatred of Walker talking
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Sep 14, 2015 20:52
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foobardog posted:This is the reigning logic, but I think the assumption that politics is fought over a bell-shaped curve is misleading, especially with the increased polarization of politics. Additionally, I think the middles of the two groups of likely voters are quite apathetic (for good reasons), and are much more driven by the more engaged "radicals" at the end. The huge success of the Tea Party, Trump, and to a lesser degree Sanders shows the extent to which the two-party Liberal consensus has broken down for ordinary voters. Trump's success is fascinating because he is strictly speaking a fascist: his popularity shows that Liberalism is ideologically falling apart. You know, in case you needed another sign that the American political system was becoming too brittle to respond to the historical moment it finds itself in. But yea Trump's non-ideology ideology basically matches up with most (white) non-ideological peoples' ideas about how to Get poo poo Done. "Moderates" don't exist.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:53
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^^^ Aren't people classified as moderates if their positions on a bunch of issues average out in the middle? If so I would think (some) Trump supporters are the moderates.nachos posted:I would love to see some quotes because that might just be their hatred of Walker talking I thought Freep liked Walker. Also if/when Bernie wins the Democratic nomination he will receive millions of dollars from corporate donors 
James Garfield fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Sep 14, 2015 |
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Sep 14, 2015 20:54
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Bob Ojeda posted:Do you have any evidence that's what people actually think, beyond Republicans using it as an attack on Hillary James Garfield posted:I thought Freep liked Walker.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:56
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James Garfield posted:I thought Freep liked Walker. Nah Freep turned on him when...I forgot when exactly but basically he hasn't said we should publicly execute everyone darker than a paper bag in the country and burn mosques to the ground so he's basically Obama 2.
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Sep 14, 2015 20:57
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Brannock posted:This is from three hours ago so please forgive me for dredging up an old post (and I'm sorry to continue the slapfight) but these accusations are completely bullshit. Andichu here you go, an extensively sourced comparison of the two on issues I find important, as well as a pretty good illustration of why Clinton is a literal lizard person. At least this is some actual concrete stuff instead of whining about ideological purity and strategical voting. Actual issues! That's still a partially cherry picked list of things -- you know like saying Bernie is "last resort" and she "supports." (Semantics, but that's what this all is.) She hasn't actually said how she feels on Keystone XL. She's talked about expanding social security. And the $15 min wage thing is, frankly just semantics. She supports raising the min wage, she just hasn't said 15 OR NOTHING. But I do appreciate you taking actual effort to address issues and not just calling her  its far more than most Sanderista's have been willing to do.JT Jag posted:Sanders ranks as one of the highest candidates in terms of perceived honestly and trustworthiness, for one. The actual political science on that is that favorability does't really matter. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 14, 2015 |
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Sep 14, 2015 20:58
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Bob Ojeda posted:As long as the American people still hate the idea of socialism, or more specifically the word 'socialist', I think it would be an issue whether or not he admits it. There's only so much you can do to control the narrative at that point. Didn't over 55% of likely voters believe Obama was a socialist last election, and yet he won anyway? I really do think the accusations against Obama have done a lot to mute the word's effect. I think you should be more worried that they're going to accuse him of being a communist... but even that doesn't hold the power it once did. Bob Ojeda posted:Do you have any evidence that's what people actually think, beyond Republicans using it as an attack on Hillary
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Sep 14, 2015 20:58
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Shifty Pony posted:If the past pattern holds a majority of those making between $7.26/hr and $15/hr will oppose the hike. I worked hard to get to where I am, making more than those lazy people at the minimum wage. I don't want to be back at the bottom rung again! JT Jag posted:They've been calling Barack Obama a socialist for eight years. The word is starting to lose the impact it once had. Young voters, the savior of the Democratic party. And as was mentioned earlier, it's one thing to be labeled a Socialist, it's another thing to have someone who I'm sure that you can find a good amount of video saying that he is one.
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Sep 14, 2015 21:00
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Maarek posted:I think this forum serially underestimates the turnout effect of a person running on a platform that is vocally focused on raising the minimum wage to $15/hr. I don't think it coming from Bernie or Hillary's mouth frankly does a lot to help turnout in the states they need turnout in.
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Sep 14, 2015 21:02
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Taerkar posted:And as was mentioned earlier, it's one thing to be labeled a Socialist, it's another thing to have someone who I'm sure that you can find a good amount of video saying that he is one. The quesiton is, which do people dislike more: Socialists? Or secret Socialists?
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Sep 14, 2015 21:02
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GlyphGryph posted:The quesiton is, which do people dislike more: Socialists? Or secret Socialists? Moderates and Independents are going to go with the former. Though you can argue they don't really matter.
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Sep 14, 2015 21:03
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GlyphGryph posted:The quesiton is, which do people dislike more: Socialists? Or secret Socialists? Fox News isn't nearly as effective as they would like.
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Sep 14, 2015 21:05
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Joementum posted:Mark Meadows has been hinting that this is the trigger he'll use to get his bill to oust Boehner on the floor. If they managed that, it would show some real muscle and might make the House an even crazier place. Not that they will, mostly because every single one of them seems to see themselves as a Randian Superman in their own personal "Atlas Shrugged".
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Sep 14, 2015 21:14
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Joementum posted:I'm assuming two or three of them will try to run and split the vote, like last time. Its a pity that speaker has to have 50%+1 votes to win, the raiders of tortilla coast shitcanning boehner to just have pelosi become leader if only for a day would be amazing.
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Sep 14, 2015 21:16
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Oh hey if the slap fight is back on, has Hillary apologized for her previous views on gay marriage at least?
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Sep 14, 2015 21:17
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Ladies and Gentleman, the American Right: http://t.co/TMzRVappAu
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Sep 14, 2015 21:19
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