|
bull3964 posted:It all depends on the costs involved. A buyback of this scale is not unprecedented. Toyota did it with Tacomas. Not quite. Toyota's buyback was 'conditional' depending upon the amount of rust present on the frame. It was 'their option' whether or not they bought back the vehicle, repaired it, replaced it, or simply warranted it: quote:Should a customer's vehicle experience this condition, they will be requested to present it to any Toyota dealer for inspection. Upon confirmation of rust perforation, Toyota will, at its option, repair or repurchase the vehicle. If it is determined that no rust perforation is present, the extended warranty will be in effect for 15 years from original sale. It also was not mandatory, this was a proactive move by Toyota. No recall was involved. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 23, 2015 |
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 08:09 |
|
|
blugu64 posted:I still think it doesn't matter, that series of VINs should be marked as void and unregisterable, seize crush etc. How about we go crush all the lovely trucks and SUVs that get to basically ignore emissions because they're body on frame. A CR TDI is still cleaner than 99% of the giant trucks and suvs people drive around daily. Just ban diesels in the US unless it's going in a big rig at this point, the amount of emissions bullshit you have to do to the engine to make it "clean" basically makes it not worth doing. There's a reason that basically only 1 company in the US even offers small diesels anymore.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
blugu64 posted:I still think it doesn't matter, that series of VINs should be marked as void and unregisterable, seize crush etc. veedubfreak posted:How about we go crush all the lovely trucks and SUVs that get to basically ignore emissions because they're body on frame. A CR TDI is still cleaner than 99% of the giant trucks and suvs people drive around daily. Just ban diesels in the US unless it's going in a big rig at this point, the amount of emissions bullshit you have to do to the engine to make it "clean" basically makes it not worth doing. There's a reason that basically only 1 company in the US even offers small diesels anymore. Pretty much what he said. Even with the cheat and the emissions issues, its still probably one of the cleanest, most fuel efficient cars in the US right now. The sad part is all the SUVs that are currently dominating the market that couldn't even begin to touch the combined emissions/fuel efficiency of the TDIs, yet they get a pass.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 20:58
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Not quite. Toyota's buyback was 'conditional' depending upon the amount of rust present on the frame. It was 'their option' whether or not they bought back the vehicle, repaired it, replaced it, or simply warranted it: Moot point. The idea is that the prospect of buying back hundreds of thousands of vehicles is an option that's been explored by an automaker and found to be viable which means it's certainly not off the table for VW. Again, not one has offered another viable course of action if VW admits "Guys, if we do this flash your valves with be completely caked over in carbon after 10k miles and the engine will basically become undrivable." The EPA is not going to go "well, ya tried your best, here's a fine and you can leave the cars alone." The emissions must be mitigated for them to be roadworthy and they are only going to attempt to mitigate them if the end result doesn't make the vehicle a drastically different product.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 21:04
|
|
|
Okay, large SUVs and trucks emit worse. Do they emit 30 to 40 times worse?
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:Moot point. The idea is that the prospect of buying back hundreds of thousands of vehicles is an option that's been explored by an automaker and found to be viable which means it's certainly not off the table for VW. No, its not a moot point as one would be a recall, the other was not. Two different scenarios. bull3964 posted:Again, not one has offered another viable course of action if VW admits "Guys, if we do this flash your valves with be completely caked over in carbon after 10k miles and the engine will basically become undrivable." The flash wouldn't cause that, at worse, it would cause the EGR to have clogging issues (yes, they still had an EGR even with the cheat.) The EPA is still unlikely to demand a universal buyback and seizure, they will probably leave that between the consumer and VW, only demanding that VW MUST take steps to mitigate/correct the cheat and offer a buyback at the owners discretion.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 21:07
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Pretty much what he said. Even with the cheat and the emissions issues, its still probably one of the cleanest, most fuel efficient cars in the US right now. They're a lot dirtier (40x?) than the 2.0 4cyl diesel engines BMW and Mercedes have on the US market, seemingly without a problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 21:11
|
|
|
veedubfreak posted:How about we go crush all the lovely trucks and SUVs that get to basically ignore emissions because they're body on frame. A CR TDI is still cleaner than 99% of the giant trucks and suvs people drive around daily. I agree though it's totally irrelevant, they were built/sold legally(as far as we know). The answer isn't to break the law or try and cheat the system. Change the system or have your car turned in to a cube, regardless if its a H2 or Prius.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 21:19
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:No, its not a moot point as one would be a recall, the other was not. Two different scenarios. You are missing the point entirely. Recall has nothing to do with this. The question is whether or not a carmaker is capble of removing a large number of their vehicles from service due to a flaw. quote:The flash wouldn't cause that, at worse, it would cause the EGR to have clogging issues (yes, they still had an EGR even with the cheat.) If an advanced EGR inspect/replace schedule would have prevent this from coming up, they would have done so. The EPA is simply going to demand that every vehicle still on the road is mitigated within a specific timeframe or taken off the road. It's up to VW to determine what that course of action will be. However, that course of action will have fallout. If it decreases fuel economy, VW is going to be hit with a class action suit, have to re-certify fuel economy, and likely fined by the Department of Commerce for selling a fraudulent product. If it decreases performance, they are still going to be hit with a class action lawsuit and likely be investigated and fined by the commerce department. If it decreases reliability, then they are looking at increased maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle. If they push vehicle buyback, they still have the EPA penalties to deal with, but they don't have to deal with the Department of Commerce investigation as the specifications of the vehicle didn't change after the sale. A class action suit will likely lose a lot of it's bite as well as a buyback would likely go above and beyond damages that would have otherwise been rewarded. This is all just on the federal level though. States get to weigh in on this as well. CA may decided that TDI's can't be registered in the state regardless of mitigation. It's within their rights to do so. Attorney Generals of several states are already starting investigations that could have wide range of consequences. This is a huge, gigantic, massive deal. It goes far beyond a recall and a fix.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 21:27
|
|
|
blugu64 posted:I agree though it's totally irrelevant, they were built/sold legally(as far as we know). The answer isn't to break the law or try and cheat the system. Change the system or have your car turned in to a cube, regardless if its a H2 or Prius. emissions is going to be the new SJW cause for at least the next week before a flavor of cheetos and a microaggression on the bus they can tumblr about takes hold
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 22:27
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:You are missing the point entirely. Recall has nothing to do with this. The question is whether or not a carmaker is capble of removing a large number of their vehicles from service due to a flaw. Watch this not happen to this scale. You live in corporate America. Not the EPA's America.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 23:15
|
|
|
VW isn't a US company. On top of that, many of their cars are imported from Mexico which is a bit of a hot button issue right now. No politician is going to expend political capital protecting Wolfsburg. If anything, they are going to use it to deflect attention away from the recent GM settlement by coming down even harder.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 23:25
|
|
|
Theyre absolutely gonna hammer the poo poo out of a foreign company
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2015 23:48
|
|
|
go3 posted:Theyre absolutely gonna hammer the poo poo out of a foreign company I suspect VW would more likely withdraw from the US market. Which means closing the plants they just recently built in places like Chattanooga. I'm more worried about what that is going to do.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I suspect VW would more likely withdraw from the US market. Which means closing the plants they just recently built in places like Chattanooga. I don't think you'll see anything nearly this dramatic. They've already scapegoated the CEO who probably had no idea this was even happening in his company and they'll pay a fine and move on. People will forget about this by and large.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
VelociBacon posted:I don't think you'll see anything nearly this dramatic. They've already scapegoated the CEO who probably had no idea this was even happening in his company and they'll pay a fine and move on. People will forget about this by and large. I hope so. And you are more than likely correct, and like many companies before their fine won't even be 1/10th of max.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
an EPA fine is the least of their worries
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:06
|
|
|
go3 posted:an EPA fine is the least of their worries What, criminal proceedings? Someone will take the fall, sure. Recalls? Something will be figured out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:07
|
|
|
veedubfreak posted:How about we go crush all the lovely trucks and SUVs that get to basically ignore emissions because they're body on frame. A CR TDI is still cleaner than 99% of the giant trucks and suvs people drive around daily. Just ban diesels in the US unless it's going in a big rig at this point, the amount of emissions bullshit you have to do to the engine to make it "clean" basically makes it not worth doing. There's a reason that basically only 1 company in the US even offers small diesels anymore. Ah, the Tom Brady defense. I don't think it'll work this time. "I'm too good to be held accountable for cheating" isn't going to fly on something like this. go3 posted:an EPA fine is the least of their worries To the tune of up to $18B. Yeah, that's the least of their worries. 
Godholio fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Sep 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:37
|
|
|
Cratered consumer confidence is kind of a big deal and that doesn't require any sort of fines or investigations.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:45
|
|
|
You guys thinking there's a difference between a multinational conglomerate that used to be american and a multinational conglomerate that isn't much american make me lol, politicians are 2-faced pragmatists not idealists. Have you paid no attention to how politics has operated for the past 20 years
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
StandardVC10 posted:Okay, large SUVs and trucks emit worse. Do they emit 30 to 40 times worse? Depends how you spin it. Diesel and gas have different emissions levels for different components. If you want to talk about CO2? Sure, the TDI is superior. But if you talk about CO or NOx, an F150 is "cleaner" than a TDI engine (to a ridiculous degree when you take the 10-40x levels into consideration). They have different emissions levels for different components so it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
The United States is not going to let the EPA hand out a death blow to Volkswagen. It would be the worse thing for US/Germany relations since the Eighth Air Force came to town. What there isn't a limit on is the damage VW just did to clean diesel specifically and its brand overall. If I was a dealer I'd seriously be looking at breach of contract on the part of VW and getting the gently caress out. In 10 years VW is going to wish the loss was only 18b.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 01:46
|
|
|
go3 posted:The United States is not going to let the EPA hand out a death blow to Volkswagen. It would be the worse thing for US/Germany relations since the Eighth Air Force came to town. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of political sit down over this between Germany and the US.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of political sit down over this between Germany and the US. I would be. It's not a political issue, Germany has not wronged anyone, it's a private automaker.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:11
|
|
|
go3 posted:The United States is not going to let the EPA hand out a death blow to Volkswagen. It would be the worse thing for US/Germany relations since the Eighth Air Force came to town. gently caress it, this is how round 3 begins, Germany is always involved
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
VelociBacon posted:I would be. It's not a political issue, Germany has not wronged anyone, it's a private automaker. Volkswagen Group is the 11th largest company in Germany, and this hits the EU as well. It wouldn't surprise me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:VW basically has no future in diesel in the US from here on out. Some have speculated that because of VW, diesel passenger cars basically have no future in the US from here on out. Though the mainstream auto industry starting to take electric cars seriously may also be a contributing factor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:20
|
|
|
Cockmaster posted:Some have speculated that because of VW, diesel passenger cars basically have no future in the US from here on out. Even with electric cars, diesel had a future. Probably not anymore, thanks VW.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:24
|
|
|
VelociBacon posted:I would be. It's not a political issue, Germany has not wronged anyone, it's a private automaker. 21% of VW voting rights owned by the state of lower saxony, and always has board members from there, and Porsche-owned shares are run by VW. That's like saying Amtrak is a privately owned train operator.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:34
|
|
|
Some analysts are speculating that the extreme drop in stock price could make them a takeover target for Fiat since they've been looking for a partner. Doubt it will happen, but you never know after all the financial realities shake out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:36
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:Some analysts are speculating that the extreme drop in stock price could make them a takeover target for Fiat since they've been looking for a partner. Doubt it will happen, but you never know after all the financial realities shake out. Chrysler and VW under the same roof? What could go wrong?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
I would imagine they will stop selling Diesels in the USA, and try to rebuild the brand from scratch.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:43
|
|
|
daslog posted:I would imagine they will stop selling Diesels in the USA Kinda already did that part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:49
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Chrysler and VW under the same roof? What could go wrong? SRT-10 Bentley Continental/Porsche Cayman
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 02:50
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:Kinda already did that part. Yes they did. I was thinking they will stop forever....
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 03:00
|
|
|
daslog posted:Yes they did. I was thinking they will stop forever.... I really hope not 
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 03:04
|
|
|
So poking around at the VW/Audi SUVs made me start liking the Q5. Are the 2011-2013 years decent? Low-mid 30s for a premium plus model?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 03:32
|
|
|
daslog posted:Yes they did. I was thinking they will stop forever.... In the US, yes this is pretty much guaranteed. Assuming that they managed to design a new engine that actually conformed to US emissions regulations before EVs completely take over the market segment, it would be an exceedingly stupid business decision. Who the hell would buy them after this?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 04:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 08:09 |
|
|
blugu64 posted:SRT-10 Bentley Continental/Porsche Cayman But in reality we'll get more of this 
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 04:44
|
|
