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Kikka posted:Also, talking about favorite Cybermen, mine is the one that gives the Doctor a badass shoulder massage. I find it amusing that they went that far to avoid showing someone being choked, yet they wallow in Cybergore in every appearance they have from "The Five Doctors" up. I mean one guy just unloads bullets into a Cybermans mouth hole from point blank range.
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Sep 30, 2015 10:23
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remusclaw posted:I mean one guy just unloads bullets into a Cybermans mouth hole from point blank range. ...when was this?
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Sep 30, 2015 10:55
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Either Attack or Silver Nemesis, I forget. Probably the former because Saward.remusclaw posted:I am a big fan of the way the show looked during the black and white days, as I feel it helped the shaky sets look more real than they ever did in the highly lit garishly painted late 70's and 80's, but on the other hand, sometimes the lack of any footage at all seems a boon to the show. The last episode of "The Dalek's Master plan" feels and sounds absolutely horrifying in a way that likely would not have carried over if I could have actually seen what was going on. That aside, I actually kind of dread Dalek episodes in the new Who, as they have never attained the high of the very first Dalek episode of the new series, and in all honesty, that episode had a lot of problems itself. I dunno, the special effect used earlier in the serial for that teleporter is horrifying remusclaw posted:False Edit: Same with Cybermen in all honesty,. I feel like every time this show brings back either of the old show's big bad's, it is to diminishing returns. The best post-B&W dalek story, Genesis, was made under a producer and script editor who both hated the daleks which meant Nation couldn't just recycle his previous half dozen Dalek stories again - it had to be something new and different. JNT, RTD and Moffat should retrospectively take note. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 11:03
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We need Terrance Dicks back on the team! I'm only half joking, I love Uncle Terrance 
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Sep 30, 2015 11:13
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As a male white Republican, I’m holding out for a return to the classic days under Philip Hinchcliffe with the Hammer Horror influences and casual racism. (I’m kidding, I’m a huge fan of Hinchcliffe and only racist against people from AFC North cities)
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Sep 30, 2015 11:44
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The_Doctor posted:...when was this? 42:20 here shows it. I honestly remember it being worse than it is, but this whole serial is filled with cyberman decapitations and such. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xrcylh_attack-of-the-cybermen-1-of-2_shortfilms remusclaw fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 12:01
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Jerusalem posted:We need Terrance Dicks back on the team! Terrance Dicks's worst story as a writer was Robot. Which is still pretty good (let down by the special effects). The others are: Seeds of Death (heavily rewriting episodes 3-6 as script editor) The War Games The Brain of Morbius (although this was heavily re-written by Holmes) The Horror of Fang Rock State of Decay, all of which are absolute classics. He also oversaw probably the most consistently good era of Doctor Who as script writer (Pertwee's era has stories that drag, but none of them are outright dire - unlike, say, Revenge of the Cybermen from the Holmes/Hinchcliffe era). gently caress "half joking", there's a strong argument for him being the best there was.
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Sep 30, 2015 13:01
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I don't see how Moffat is appreciably worse than any former producer and by any sane standard he's much better (that goes for most of the things fans give him poo poo for tbqh) "Ooh he wrote the Daleks differently than last time" "Ohh he made up more poo poo just for this story" "Arrgh there he goes sticking his fingers into the carefully arranged mythos of Doctor Who" -- which producer am I talking about with those three statements? If you guessed Moffat, you get a cookie. If you guessed RTD, you also get a cookie. If you guessed any of them you get a cookie! Everyone gets cookies!! MrL_JaKiri posted:The best post-B&W dalek story, Genesis, was made under a producer and script editor who both hated the daleks which meant Nation couldn't just recycle his previous half dozen Dalek stories again - it had to be something new and different. JNT, RTD and Moffat should retrospectively take note. Let's be real here, too: 90% of that story was down to Robert Holmes editing and rewriting most of the script. So clearly what Moffat needs to do is resurrect Holmes and bring him back on as an editor. Holmes was the best.
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Sep 30, 2015 13:08
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misadventurous posted:I don't see how Moffat is appreciably worse than any former producer except for handling the actual production of the show
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Sep 30, 2015 13:31
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misadventurous posted:I don't see how Moffat is appreciably worse than any former producer and by any sane standard he's much better (that goes for most of the things fans give him poo poo for tbqh) Relax, it's only Burkion you're arguing with.
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Sep 30, 2015 13:33
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Attitude Indicator posted:except for handling the actual production of the show yeah 
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Sep 30, 2015 13:36
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misadventurous posted:Holmes was the best. Dicks was the best  The worst story he script edited was one Holmes wrote  misadventurous posted:I don't see how Moffat is appreciably worse than any former producer and by any sane standard he's much better (that goes for most of the things fans give him poo poo for tbqh) Doctor Who has no consistent canon. This is not a problem. Having no consistent canon (even within episodes he writes himself) and then making lots and lots and lots of references to that canon is, however, a problem. And if you really want into get into the argument over where Moffat ranks on the producers, I'll give you the executive summary of my position: it's near the bottom. The only real comparable team is Saward/JNT, and neither of them really wanted to be there after a while so it's not really their fault.
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Sep 30, 2015 13:55
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Wait hold onquote:"Ooh he wrote the Daleks differently than last time" "Ohh he made up more poo poo just for this story" "Arrgh there he goes sticking his fingers into the carefully arranged mythos of Doctor Who" -- which producer am I talking about with those three statements? If you guessed Moffat, you get a cookie. If you guessed RTD, you also get a cookie. If you guessed any of them you get a cookie! Everyone gets cookies!! "If you guessed Moffat, you get a cookie. If you guessed RTD, you get a cookie. If you guessed any of the others you don't get anything because they didn't write episodes, they were producers, idiot" [edit] That's not entirely true, Barry Letts was a writer and director as well as a producer, but didn't write any dalek stories (working with Robert Sloman on The Daemons, The Time Monster, The Green Death and The Planet of the Spiders). His biggest input on dalek mythology is, as described below, rejecting Nation's rehashed dalek story for Tom Baker and sending him off to write Genesis. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 13:59
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Wait hold on againmisadventurous posted:Let's be real here, too: 90% of that story was down to Robert Holmes editing and rewriting most of the script. Uh do you have a source because I've never heard of anything like this, are you getting confused with The Brain of Morbius? As far as I'm aware the biggest changes to the script that Nation turned over were: having the meeting with the Time Lord at the start happen in the wasteland rather than in a garden as Nation wrote, and a reduction in a subplot about Sarah Jane having radiation sickness (which Nation wrote as a callback to The Daleks). The general tone and character of the script was following discussion with the outgoing producer/script writer pair (Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks), and Hinchcliffe/Holmes had to be convinced by them to do the story at all.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:05
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Yeah I was sort of conflating writer-producers and editor/producer teams there, poorly worded on my part. I actually like both Holmes and Dicks a lot, I just prefer Holmes's particular verve and style. Think you could make a case for either of them as best Who writer ever. And as for ranking the production teams, I think it's fine to hate on Moffat but honestly it's the same way, it's all about where your tastes lie. I like Moffat's overall take on the show and don't find any of his fuckups more egregious than anyone else's, that's all. I don't have a source for that, hehe. Just spitballin'/bullshittin'. The best parts of the script (like the Doctor talking to Davros) don't feel at all like Nation and there's such a huge gulf in quality between Genesis and his other scripts... misadventurous fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 14:15
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Moffat's writing is a matter of taste but as a producer he lost a year's worth of episodes.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:20
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Yeah. As a writer, Moffat is capable of great things, though he doesn't always get there. But he's unquestionably had a hard time with the keeping-the-lights-on portion of running a major television series. I don't think there's any way to deny that, and there doesn't seem to be anyone else to blame.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:24
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Since we’re talking about Daleks, here’s a picture of Paul McGann kissing one.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:31
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docbeard posted:Yeah. As a writer, Moffat is capable of great things, though he doesn't always get there. I'm disinclined to lay all the blame for that at one guy's feet... but eh I guess as long as he's the "face" of the program behind the scenes, that's kind of his lot. Fair enough.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:35
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misadventurous posted:And as for ranking the production teams, I think it's fine to hate on Moffat but honestly it's the same way, it's all about where your tastes lie. I like Moffat's overall take on the show and don't find any of his fuckups more egregious than anyone else's, that's all. I dunno, I think he came into the job at the easiest point possible (with the programme being essentially the most popular its ever been, with less budgetary restrictions than previous producers had to face) and immediately hosed it up. In any case, my reference to JNT/Saward was there for a reason - only JNT/Saward has had anything like the obsession with continuity (Cartmel was writing his own, rather than making reference to previous stories particularly and the Time War was explicitly written in by Davies so he could have it stay the same programme and to keep the nerds onside but with a much freer hand). misadventurous posted:I don't have a source for that, hehe. Just spitballin'/bullshittin'. The best parts of the script (like the Doctor talking to Davros) don't feel at all like Nation and there's such a huge gulf in quality between Genesis and his other scripts... What, you've never seen a writer treading water before? Nation's produced a lot of really good dialogue (just look at bits of Blakes 7), and major changes to scripts have (as far as I'm aware) been noted in various books and other sources (and minor changes in the script - like changing the names of some minor characters - are noted). There's no real likelihood that your supposition has any truth to it. Further than that, I don't think the Doctor/Davros speech is in Holmes's idiom either and the story in general is much much bleaker than anything that Holmes wrote himself.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:38
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Plus, massive disservice to Nation to say he's never written anything that good for Doctor Who https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um5Cn5eHsGo
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Sep 30, 2015 14:42
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Terrance Dicks's worst story as a writer was Robot. Which is still pretty good (let down by the special effects). There's The Five Doctors too, which is a good one as well, so yeah, no real clunkers under Tewwy's belt. But if we're talking about the script editor with the most consistently good output, I think David Whitaker takes the cake. There's only really The Sensorites and The Keys of Marinus weighing his season-and-a-half down (and they aren't really awful, either), and his own scripts include the two best Dalek stories and a half-dozen other ones that range from classics to pretty good ones. The Wheel in Space isn't great, but the The Edge of Destruction, The Rescue, The Crusade, The Enemy of the World and The Ambassadors of Death are all perfectly solid.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:45
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CobiWann posted:Since we’re talking about Daleks, here’s a picture of Paul McGann kissing one. drat it Paul, that's a Dalek not Peter Davison!
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Sep 30, 2015 14:54
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Forktoss posted:There's The Five Doctors too, which is a good one as well, so yeah, no real clunkers under Tewwy's belt. But if we're talking about the script editor with the most consistently good output, I think David Whitaker takes the cake. There's only really The Sensorites and The Keys of Marinus weighing his season-and-a-half down (and they aren't really awful, either), and his own scripts include the two best Dalek stories and a half-dozen other ones that range from classics to pretty good ones. The Wheel in Space isn't great, but the The Edge of Destruction, The Rescue, The Crusade, The Enemy of the World and The Ambassadors of Death are all perfectly solid. I forgot The Five Doctors for old Terrence, so replace Robot with that as his worst one (not a fan of the fanwank stuff for the most part, as you may have noticed recently). It's decent enough for what it is, in that I'm not sure I'd have preferred a version written by anyone else given the production fuckery. Not a fan of The Rescue particularly either, but I'd call The Enemy of the World and The Ambassadors of Death a lot more than just solid so it balances out. David Whitaker can also have a pass on The Keys of Marinus (as can Nation) because it was written incredibly quickly and at short notice. Of course you can easily see the numeric stats for best script editor, best producer, best companion, best writer, best villain, best series and best doctor down the bottom of my spreadsheet!: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZQQnkoOfGDAjVHmTIMZI9RwB5J9vWJSU-y6klgfltPI/edit?pli=1#gid=0
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Sep 30, 2015 15:59
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Forktoss posted:There's The Five Doctors too, which is a good one as well, so yeah, no real clunkers under Tewwy's belt. But if we're talking about the script editor with the most consistently good output, I think David Whitaker takes the cake. There's only really The Sensorites and The Keys of Marinus weighing his season-and-a-half down (and they aren't really awful, either), and his own scripts include the two best Dalek stories and a half-dozen other ones that range from classics to pretty good ones. The Wheel in Space isn't great, but the The Edge of Destruction, The Rescue, The Crusade, The Enemy of the World and The Ambassadors of Death are all perfectly solid. Dicks would probably disagree with you about Five Doctors, considering he HATED that he was forced to make the Cybermen the main classic baddie in it, and how much on-the-fly rewriting he had to do to accommodate who was and was not available for shooting.
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Sep 30, 2015 16:00
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I dunno, I think he came into the job at the easiest point possible (with the programme being essentially the most popular its ever been, with less budgetary restrictions than previous producers had to face) and immediately hosed it up. The budget for Series 5 was actually lower than it had been for Series 4 and probably for S3 too.
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Sep 30, 2015 16:35
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DoctorWhat posted:The budget for Series 5 was actually lower than it had been for Series 4 and probably for S3 too.
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Sep 30, 2015 16:37
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Rhyno posted:drat it Paul, that's a Dalek not Peter Davison! Or Richard E Grant!
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Sep 30, 2015 16:38
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Rhyno posted:drat it Paul, that's a Dalek not Peter Davison! CobiWann posted:Or Richard E Grant! He's just appreciative that they didn't need to give him a box to stand on this time.
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Sep 30, 2015 16:51
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DoctorWhat posted:The budget for Series 5 was actually lower than it had been for Series 4 and probably for S3 too. Yeah, that's pretty much why people were shocked at Eleventh Hour and how much better it looked than the prior few years.
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Sep 30, 2015 17:01
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Gaz-L posted:Yeah, that's pretty much why people were shocked at Eleventh Hour and how much better it looked than the prior few years. Did they just get better cinematographers? Because the look of the show since Eleventh Hour has been consistently way better, and I'm still not quite sure why. And it seems to me like generally, outside a few episodes, season 8/9 have looked even better. Deep Breath was a messy episode, but the look of it was incredible. So many episodes since Eleventh Hour have had a cinematic quality to their filmmaking, while under Davies it really looked like the kid's TV show it was most of the time. From a craftsman's perspective I think the Moffat era is inarguably better.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:23
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Spatula City posted:Did they just get better cinematographers? Because the look of the show since Eleventh Hour has been consistently way better, and I'm still not quite sure why. And it seems to me like generally, outside a few episodes, season 8/9 have looked even better. Deep Breath was a messy episode, but the look of it was incredible. Yeah, Moffat's show looks incredible. Even better, we got two episodes written by Neil Gaiman, an episode with Warwick Davis, and a special starring John Hurt. If the show has been mismanaged, it absolutely doesn't show.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:28
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I can't remember the details, but wasn't the budget stuff not Moffat's doing, but those two producers who were on Confidential all the time? Like I said I can't remember the details, but I distinctly remember reading that the half-season stuff was due to non-Moffat producer budget incompetence.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:38
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And More posted:Yeah, Moffat's show looks incredible. Even better, we got two episodes written by Neil Gaiman, an episode with Warwick Davis, and a special starring John Hurt. If the show has been mismanaged, it absolutely doesn't show. Yeah, it didn't show for twelve episodes. That's the problem.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:47
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Spatula City posted:Did they just get better cinematographers? Because the look of the show since Eleventh Hour has been consistently way better, and I'm still not quite sure why. And it seems to me like generally, outside a few episodes, season 8/9 have looked even better. Deep Breath was a messy episode, but the look of it was incredible. It's gone from being a CBBC* show that ranges in quality from bad-to-brilliant, to show on the CW** that ranges in quality from bad-to-brilliant.  * Not derogatory because that's something I liked about it - Eccleston's season I think could've slotted in quite neatly alongside the Demon Headmaster serials I was so enamoured of as a child. ** That seems like the sort of demographic it's aiming at these days - what would've been the Buffy audience 15 years ago. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 18:49
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Gaz-L posted:Dicks would probably disagree with you about Five Doctors, considering he HATED that he was forced to make the Cybermen the main classic baddie in it, and how much on-the-fly rewriting he had to do to accommodate who was and was not available for shooting. The whole framing narrative for Five Doctors is dumb as hell. "Only the Lord President has access to the Time Scoop. We have no idea who could have used it!" And Dicks shares Moffat's habit of introducing a threat/obstacle and resolving it instantly.* But Fang Rock is a classic and State of Decay is a goddamn treasure, so that forgives a lot. *Even though the solution is never explained, the Pi chessboard (?!) sequence actually plays well simply for giving Ainley a chance to do the classic Master betrayal.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:53
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Dabir posted:Yeah, it didn't show for twelve episodes. That's the problem. Seems like it hasn't shown for almost 60 episodes now. 
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Sep 30, 2015 19:11
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After The War posted:The whole framing narrative for Five Doctors is dumb as hell. "Only the Lord President has access to the Time Scoop. We have no idea who could have used it!" And Dicks shares Moffat's habit of introducing a threat/obstacle and resolving it instantly.* The Pi puzzle is mostly annoying because there's a fairly easy, if rote, answer you could use. Each row, the correct tile is the corresponding significant digit of pi. Which I think Ainley tried to do, given how he bounds across the board. But then the Doctor just strolls across the middle.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:18
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Which Baker story was it that Dicks wrote because Holmes (as script editor) asked him to, but as part of this good-natured revenge scheme for when Dicks (as script editor) asked Holmes to write a particular Pertwee story (which I believe turned out to be "The Time Warrior")? I have an inkling it was "Morbius" but that doesn't seem quite right.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:22
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And More posted:Seems like it hasn't shown for almost 60 episodes now. He was making a joke about Moffat literally pissing away a year of Doctor Who- during the 50th anniversary no less, due to his management of season 5. That's actually the saddest thing. Season 5 has been Moffat's best season, bar none, but it was also the one with the most behind the scenes problems and started a domino effect that we've only now gotten out of. And then we have rumors that we may not get a season next year as well. BSam posted:Relax, it's only Burkion you're arguing with. Sure. JaKiri actually does express most of what I'm trying to convey very well actually- I wouldn't care as much about the weird inconsistencies if Moffat didn't insist on burying the lead in continuity. That and I'd argue that honestly the RTD run treated the Daleks better than Moffat has, barring Victory. There they had at least one Dalek with personality and goals, and each one was unique. Rose Dalek, the Emperor, the Cult, and then the Supreme and Caan one last time. The Dalek Parliament was an interesting idea that I would have liked to of seen explored, but that was the same story that spent 95% of its time focusing on character drama that was just invented FOR that episode for them to only go back to the status quo immediately after, focused on the first of the Mystery Girl Clara stories which drowned out almost everything else, and then introduced the abominable hive mind nonsense- which was effectively ignore the next time the Daleks showed up, and then sort of ignored/massively changed the next and finally, here, utterly ignored as was the LAST massively changed version in favor of something else entirely. It's like you could have replaced the Daleks with any other species and you'd come out the same. One actual minor thing though- if we're still going off of the logic from Inside the Dalek, that the suit uses radiation or whatever to do a thing to make Daleks evil and whatsit, ignoring the fact that Skaro is no longer radioactive- shouldn't the inside of that suit be? Especially for the pilot? Burkion fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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