Hermetic posted:

But with a newbie, there's always the chance they might blurt without asking, or misinterpret coaching.

Hell, if we want to get really tinfoil, they may have been coached to make a blunder, so someone can talk them out of it, and get them through day 1 with an aura of "newbie town" about them....

Hermetic posted:

I didn't mean for the third idea to be taken completely seriously, I was just pointing out that his blunder by no means makes him verified town. So far Biga's still the best candidate for a lynch in my book.

Hermetic posted:

Yeah, I'm gonna feel dumb as gently caress if he's got a useful power and we make him do a mid-air jig. That said, he's the closest thing to a viable option. I'm in the same boat as you: There are a few people that feel off to me, but all I have is gut right now, and I'd rather not just throw around a bunch of "U FEEL LIEK SKUM 2 ME" accusations. That seems useless at best, scummy at worst.

Hermetic posted:

Because there's no case. My gut feelings are probably not going to sway anyone. Evidence is everything in Mafia, Mr. Wright.

Hermetic posted:

If you want to talk about my gut reads, you were one of them. For some reason, they rubbed me the wrong way. You were kinda on my "watch" list from then

Jumping on me is the first thing you've done that I can say feels concretely scummy, though. You don't want to jump on the biagawagon, of course, because it seems to be losing steam, and at this point it would be too obvious. However, there's a lot of pressure on me because my posts have been a bit wishy-washy. (It's just how I reason through things without hard evidence. There's a lot of room for me to be wrong, so I dislike stating things with certainty). Thus, you can get a train running on me for the next 24 hours, avoiding more poking and prodding of others, and drive a townie lynch day 1.

Make a case why I'm scum. I think it will help me get a better read on you.

I'm just not big on wild accusations. It feels like scum behavior to me.

Kumbamontu posted:

Are you sure you actually read my post? I did make a case on you, it was literally in the post you quoted. Then I voted you based on said case. I've been poking and prodding people constantly, I don't know how you can possibly posit that I am trying to avoid it

Hermetic posted:

Nah, it felt like you just lecturing me about my posting style rather than "Here is why Hermetic is scum like Solanas' manifesto". If that's your entire case against me, then I think I got all the read I need.

Kumbamontu posted:

Did you ignore the second paragraph and focus only on the first? I'm sincerely stumped as to how you are reaching this conclusion because the words are right there.

As for having "all the read you need", I pose a question to you: let's assume for a moment you are in fact town and I am wrong. Why does me being wrong about your alignment mean I'm scum? Gabriel Pope is voting for you - is he scum too?

Hermetic posted:

Wow, you jumped to some serious conclusions, given that I never said I thought you were scum, changed my vote, made an accusation, etc.

You're kinda defensive, mate...

Hermetic posted:

It means that I don't think it was a tell. Jesus christ.

Kumbamontu posted:

As people have already stated, looking for a "viable option" this early reeks of trying to take advantage of someone's blunder instead of actually hunting scum. Gut calls are perfectly fine D1 - even if you're wrong, you can get people to respond to your prods and accusations in order to better gauge their alignment. You're coming across as even more defeatist than Biaga is here. This, combined with your tinfoil theory and Podima's analysis of your sheepishness, leads me to believe you are scum.

Hermetic posted:

I love that Gabriel Pope and Kumbamontu are leading the charge against me for not answering their questions, yet Biaga hasn't posted in, like, a day and a half. Don't worry, though. No one is protecting their scumbro. It's not like the whole thing reeks of him being told "play dead until the bandwagon stops" or anything. Not sure which one of the two is coaching him yet, but Kumbamontu is reading as either frustrated town or tryhard scum.

Hermetic posted:

If you put a gun to my head and asked me to pick someone pushing me early for a lynch as a way to take the heat off of Biaga Smalls, I'd have to say probably Gabriel, because he unvoted me once the really big rush was off, and tried to play it like it was a pressure vote, despite the fact that he initially framed it as an actual vote (though he divorced the vote post from his case, which let him have wiggle room to justify it later).

Gabriel Pope posted:

Ok, so take 2 on Hermetic.

Early on there's a good bit of jokephase posting from him, no big deal. Then he starts in on Biaga. Something Awful! summarizes the problems with Hermetic's initial case on Biaga nicely, but I'd also like to call attention to this:



Note that his weird stretch case is the only thing he's said about Biaga, but it wasn't completely serious, but somehow Biaga is still the best lynch candidate based on ??? He does eventually explain himself (briefly) when he puts his vote down, but he spends a lot of time after this hemming and hawing about putting his opinions out because he doesn't like making baseless accusations without evidence, despite having done precisely that on Biaga in the first place.



The rest of Hermetic's posting Tuesday is pretty sketchy but not especially damning. I've already noted the first time around that I thought this post seemed pretty earnest, which made me lighten up on Hermetic for a while. But then he started posting yesterday and the poo poo really hit the fan:


We asked for gut reads, so can't complain about the super vague "rubbed me the wrong way" read.

The attempt to case Kumba here is just bad, though. Kumba was one of the first ones on the biagawagon and he himself put the brakes on just as it was catching steam (this is pointed out to Herm and he ignores it.) He also claims that there's a lot of pressure on him for being "a bit wishy-washy", which is a mischaracterization of most of the people who were on his case (most people suspected him on bandwagoning grounds.)

Then begins the extended clusterfuck between Kumba and Herm, which is where things really go to hell:





This starts a running subthread where these two go back and forth for 24 hours trying to get Herm to pin down exactly what he means, eventually culminating in this:


So, Kumba's case on Hermetic was "concretely scummy" in his first post but now it's "not a tell"? He tries to weasel out of calling Kambu scum by saying that he mistook Kambu's post as lecturing him about posting (which is apparently concretely scummy) instead of making a case against him (not a tell.)

This, incidentally, is Kumba's case which Herm mistook for not being a case:


So let's break this down:

1. Kumba rattles off several reasons he suspects Herm, concluding with "this leads me to believe you are scum."
2. Herm counter-cases Kumba, calling Kumba's case "concretely scummy."
3. Kumba says wtf and reiterates his case.
4. Herm says "whoops when you said 'this is why I believe you are scum' I didn't think that you were trying to make a case on why you believe I am scum, 'I have my read.'"
5. Kumba says wtf and repeatedly asks for clarification.
6. Herm repeatedly asks "u mad bro " instead of clarifying.
7. Herm clarifies that 'I have my read' meant that "I don't think this thing that I called 'concretely scummy' is a tell."

Also, hey, remember when Kumba asks Herm if my vote on him also makes me scum in Hermetic's book?



Apparently it does! Also, the savvy connoisseur of bad mafia posts will appreciate the delightful aroma of Hermetic calling back to his theory about Biaga being coached, you know, the one that wasn't actually serious and we weren't supposed to pay attention to. It nicely complements the faint bouquet of Hermetic suggesting that I'm scummy for pushing him and also suggesting I'm scummy for not pushing him.

Furthermore, something something wine terminology he again claims that he's only under fire to bring the heat off Biaga. Hermetic, until you stepped forward I was the heat on Biaga. Your attempts to justify your Biaga vote were cribbed from my own arguments. I don't think he's acquitting himself very well now that he's back in the thread, but I'll lynch someone who evades giving opinions and then tries to weasel out of them over someone who merely posts bad opinions.

Other people have already covered how lovely the self-hammering posturing is, so I won't go over it again. I'd still really like to hear from CC and SSV before the end of the day but it doesn't look like there's a push to end the day prematurely so I'm feeling really good about ##vote Hermetic

Hermetic posted:

That's a whole lot of analysis of me having a "eh, I was busy at work and half-paying attention" day.

Call it defeatist, but I'm basically resigned to a lynch at this point. Go nuts on discussion, but I'm checked out.

Kumbamontu posted:

I liked that post but you and CC would do well to summarize your points better or split them into separate posts because most people are going to see that and be like "HAHA WELP tl;dr" and ignore it

Hermetic posted:

Nah. That would be scummy. So would not doing it. So is this post. Not making this post would be too.

##vote Hermetic

Because any other vote would be scummy. Though this vote is scummy too.

Kashuno posted:

gently caress you.

##vote hermetic

Hermetic posted:

no, gently caress you, scum. go town!

SirSamVimes posted:

I doubt that the scum have two nightkills in a 13 player game, so what are we thinking? Serial killer or town role?

Kashuno posted:

gently caress you.

##vote hermetic

Kashuno posted:

I will agree that it was lovely to hammer early. He was pissing me off with his silly poo poo so I just decided I had had enough and lynched. I don't regret my decision.

Back to voting for the real scum ##vote colonel corazon

Colonel Corazon posted:

No, all you did was take an opportunistic vote to end discussion early when you were one of the other contenders for getting lynched. Ending D1 early only benefited you. ##vote kashuno

With or without your shady D1 behavior, that alone is worth a vote.

Kashuno posted:

Why didn't I end the day earlier when he was at -2, threatening to lynch himself when he got to -1?

Kashuno posted:

this is a weird insinuation

Kashuno posted:

I disagree

##vote Biaga

Kashuno posted:

These posts still feel scummy as hell. Especially The town gains nothing by cutting out members, especially at a time where there is no real proof of alignment outside of speculation and suggestion.

Kashuno posted:

Kashuno posted:

I like my vote where it is tyvm.

Kashuno posted:

I really like this argument, and will have to give Hermetic a reread.

Kashuno posted:

TMM, give CC's post a read and then read my response. Let me know what you think. Tia

Kashuno posted:

Kumba how do you feel about CC?

Kashuno posted:

Do people just not read in this game or?????

Kashuno posted:

Colonel, how would it make any sense that Biaga is likely scum if I'm definitely scum? Do you think I'm doing some insane suicidal bussing strat?

How have i rolled off the radar? I've been garnering votes all day and engaging the thread in discussion.

Finding Gabriel's response to be weird doesn't insinuate in any way that I find Biaga to be town, and I don't get where you think I'm back pedaling there.
...
I haven't dodged an accusation and I think it's clear from that you aren't noting my reactions and are in fact trying to create a narrative to support your vote that doesn't exist.

Kashuno posted:

I didn't even think I was vote leader until after I just posted and checked vote finder, so lol at the idea that I'm responding more because of votes on me

Kashuno posted:

in what world is he scum with me? Why am I doubling down on my case instead of backing off???

Kashuno posted:

You're scum. Clearly. I hope if this vote doesn't turn around today, the town lunches you tomorrow for how obvious this bandwagon word twisting spiel is.

Kashuno posted:

TMM I want you to imagine the face in my avatar every single time you accuse me of being scum in all games in the future because you're always wrong

Kashuno posted:

TMM seems town right now. He does this every game, and in fact the only time he doesn't make a d1 scum read on me is when he's scum.

Kashuno posted:

Vimes lurks and posts little content on d1 in every game he plays. it's a nulltell for him.

Podima posted:

Did you know that if you write a long post and go to hit Submit Reply, but the thread's been closed, it just sends you to the front page of the forums and does its damndest to lose your effortpost?

Kashuno posted:

The above was a response to this, not the effort post