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It's not necessarily one thing, but years upon years of abuse from a leader unwilling to change his ways, along with his lackeys who copy the shtick, but with a lack the whole "technical criticism" part. Thankfully, the graphics and input subsystem maintainers, where I spend most of my time, are exceptionally well-run and a joy to deal with. USB (before and after Sharp's maintenance), networking and filesystems subsystems are impossible to enter. Media and sound are passable. The worst experience I've seen was with tglx, who's in charge of pinctrl and timers. Even after he understood our problem, accepted our solution and why his ideas wouldn't work, still said "I don't like it" and has been ignoring our requests for what to fix.
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Oct 5, 2015 23:30
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LKML is pointlessly macho and it's off-putting, yeah. Somebody needs to fight his battle out in the open though, and I don't begrudge Sarah for not wanting to be the one to do it.
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Oct 5, 2015 23:38
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It's not a battle we can win, because Linus sets the tone and culture. Remember when Greg tried to push for a code of conduct and fell apart because Linus himself said he wouldn't follow it?
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Oct 5, 2015 23:50
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No, I don't follow things that closely. But that's quite upsetting.
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Oct 5, 2015 23:55
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they literally have a "code of conflict" instead of a code of conduct they are proud of their horrible lovely interpersonal dysfunctions
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Oct 6, 2015 00:00
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I'm not sure I follow that summits can be unprofessional but a mailing list cannot. All parties seem to want shouting matches.
MrMoo fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 00:50
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working with rude or otherwise unpleasant people is bearable only because you get paid to do it. what kind of person would do it for free. hm.
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Oct 6, 2015 00:52
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Everyone on LKML pretty much works for a corporate sponsor? It is supposed to be a hierarchy so I guess if you hate working with these tools you can proxy through others that maintain trees independently until large pull requests.
MrMoo fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 00:59
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if I were to interact in any official capacity on open lists like some of the LKML folks do, my employer would have quite a few words with me and be right to do so Linus may not be accountable to anyone, but most of the other LKML people are, and I'm surprised their employers won't hold them to professional standards then again, it's Linux, so...
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Oct 6, 2015 02:24
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Mr Dog posted:No, I don't follow things that closely. But that's quite upsetting. is baby gonna cry
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Oct 6, 2015 02:27
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fork linux
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Oct 6, 2015 02:31
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Linux and its users/developers are gross
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Oct 6, 2015 02:33
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As they say, don't look in the kitchen of your favorite restaurant. Except in-n-out, they do it in the open anyway and it's mesmerizing to watch them turn large potatoes into
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Oct 6, 2015 05:15
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celeron 300a posted:As they say, don't look in the kitchen of your favorite restaurant. in-n-out cooks would probably make for better kernel developers tbh less salt than the other guys
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Oct 6, 2015 05:19
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Suspicious Dish posted:in-n-out cooks would probably make for better kernel developers tbh 
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Oct 6, 2015 07:00
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you guys know how in n out has those palm trees in a cross? over the bible verse? they should call them psalm trees
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Oct 6, 2015 07:17
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Suspicious Dish posted:in-n-out cooks would probably make for better kernel developers tbh every numeric type would be a double double.
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Oct 6, 2015 07:19
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Suspicious Dish posted:I also want to remind people that this isn't just a "woman in computers" thing. I counted, and I know 20 colleagues, former and present, who have sworn off kernel development entirely because of the toxic attitude. All but one of them male, all of them from diverse cultural backgrounds. i suppose the good side is "it isn't just women who get treated like this", so that's nice. it could be worse 
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Oct 6, 2015 12:12
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the Burger King kids club was discouraged from contributing to the kernel
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Oct 6, 2015 15:54
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well of course they were, their code wasn't finger-lickin' good
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Oct 6, 2015 21:11
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celeron 300a posted:As they say, don't look in the kitchen of your favorite restaurant. if you're afraid to look in the kitchen, you really shouldn't be eating there
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Oct 6, 2015 22:11
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:if you're afraid to look in the kitchen, you really shouldn't be eating there cool autist lifehack
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Oct 6, 2015 22:16
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autism (n), a severe mental illness characterized chiefly by a disinclination to eat at restaurants with questionable standards of hygiene.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:19
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i used to eat in the world's most disgusting restaurant it was a 19th century roadhouse that had been in use continuously as a restaurant for at least 100 years. it was surrounded by abandoned buildings and scrap yards. the exterior was black. the interior walls were brown and had ~1/4" of congealed grease and tobacco smoke. everything was upholstered in vinyl. which was also brown. i don't know if that was the original color or not. just it was brown when i was eating there. all the waiters and cooks were over the age of 70 and couldn't see. i routinely found silverware on the floor. the whole place smelled like an ashtray the kitchen was spotless. just acres of gleaming stainless steel i swear the floors in there were cleaner than the dining area's tables the point is: it's ok for the dining room to be weird and dirty. it is not at all ok for the bathrooms or kitchen to be dirty, because those are the parts that are easy to clean and also the ports that will make me poo poo my brains out while puking into my shoes
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Oct 6, 2015 22:22
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I met some people that got surprised of seeing dudes in open source projects being nice and open it's like the lkml is so infamous that it distorts the view of open source in general also something stallman something
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Oct 7, 2015 21:32
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I think the whole issue they're having with lkml is way overblown. sarah and mjg makes it sound like there's a 24:7 screamfest in there.
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Oct 8, 2015 09:37
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Linux people are screaming manchildren. checks out.
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Oct 8, 2015 16:04
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Tankakern posted:I think the whole issue they're having with lkml is way overblown. sarah and mjg makes it sound like there's a 24:7 screamfest in there. it sort of is. when you live with it, when people won't listen and instead just tell you you're stupid over and over, it grows on you. submitting patches to certain maintainers is just a pain.
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Oct 8, 2015 16:14
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Sarah publicly responded to Linus literally telling Greg to "stop being a doormat" by saying "This is not loving okay" and that the tone on LKML was very hostile and disrespectful. You don't get to respond to a very PG-13 bit of banter between friends by jumping in with an R-rated outburst about a hostile atmosphere. Why she chose that particular incident to pick on and not, say, Linus' outburst about somebody needing to be retroactively aborted is beyond me. Probably she wasn't aware of the latter until after the fact. Matt Garrett publicly posted about how he was henceforth refusing to fix any issues relating to Intel hardware unless specifically instructed to by his employer because some marketing guy at Intel refused to take sides in some Gamergate bullshit. Prior to that he publicly stated that he will have no further interactions with a prominent kernel developer unless specifically instructed to do so by his employer and alleged that the developer in question is a rape apologist, giving no further detail than that. Which is a rather serious disparagement of somebody's character bordering on libel, so I assume that Garrett has good reason to be making such accusations. You can't accuse a community of being hostile while simultaneously starting conflicts and assuming malice yourself. At the very least these two people have a rather hard-line position on what constitutes a hostile atmosphere. e: and for what it's worth there was a recent incident where a newcomer to the community seemed hell-bent on getting any sort of patch merged into the Linux kernel despite being completely technically inept. Multiple world-class kernel developers treated this guy with kid gloves, spent a lot of their very valuable time reviewing his code and giving constructive feedback, and assumed the best of intentions, and finally when it became clear that this guy was just wasting everybody's time he was politely but firmly blacklisted from submitting any further patches. Some LKML members are certainly more abrasive than others but there isn't some crazy atmosphere of personal abuse and machismo by a long shot. Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Oct 8, 2015 |
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Oct 8, 2015 17:38
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Mr Dog posted:Sarah publicly responded to Linus literally telling Greg to "stop being a doormat" by saying "This is not loving okay" and that the tone on LKML was very hostile and disrespectful. You don't get to respond to a very PG-13 bit of banter between friends by jumping in with an R-rated outburst about a hostile atmosphere. Why she chose that particular incident to pick on and not, say, Linus' outburst about somebody needing to be retroactively aborted is beyond me. Probably she wasn't aware of the latter until after the fact. The quote that she was responding to was a physical threat about how Greg could beat her up at any time.
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Oct 8, 2015 18:54
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I mean, threats of physical abuse might be "banter between friends" where you come from, like Linus claims, but they're still not acceptable in a professional setting.
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Oct 8, 2015 18:55
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so what are some cool open source projects people should involved with than
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Oct 8, 2015 18:56
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Suspicious Dish posted:The quote that she was responding to was a physical threat about how Greg could beat her up at any time. http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2 quote:On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:17:08 +0200, Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org> wrote: If this sounds like an earnest, credible threat of physical violence to you then please seek psychiatric help.
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Oct 8, 2015 19:11
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lol @ mr dogs desperation to find a way to spin linux kernel macho culture as no big deal ive seen torvalds (who, for better or worse, sets the lkml tone) interacting with people online in a non lkml context (a message board we both read) and he does this poo poo there too. hes addicted to calling people loving idiots (always spells it f*cking) and provoking flamewars and intimidating people into backing down reminder that torvalds very nearly drove even alan cox away a few years back. cox was in the process of trying to clean out the tty stables, there were decades of horrible broken poo poo in there and fixing it was temporarily breaking emacs or something, and torvalds seemingly thought the best way to resolve the issue was to go in with guns blazing, trying to humiliate cox into fixing-it-now. instead he got cox to resign tty maintainership. this was someone who had probably 2 decades of linus-hardened thick skin at that point, and someone who ought to have had immense credibility with linus. but as soon as linus decided he knew what was going on, he wasn't going to loving listen and he was going to insult and berate until he got his way. if you think there is a healthy culture on the lkml you ain't watching very hard
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Oct 9, 2015 04:45
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has anyone tried smartos or https://project-fifo.net/ ?
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Oct 9, 2015 05:04
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b0red posted:so what are some cool open source projects people should involved with than llvm/clang/lldb
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Oct 9, 2015 05:14
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also Jordan Hubbard's NeXTBSD
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Oct 9, 2015 05:16
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Suspicious Dish posted:I mean, threats of physical abuse might be "banter between friends" where you come from, like Linus claims, but they're still not acceptable in a professional setting. lol
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Oct 9, 2015 05:19
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b0red posted:so what are some cool open source projects people should involved with than here do a risc os bounty and pretend you're in the early 90s https://www.riscosopen.org/bounty/
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Oct 9, 2015 06:27
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gabensraum posted:here do a risc os bounty and pretend you're in the early 90s quote:ARMv7 inline assembler in C compiler it's funny, the fact that you're making money for it kind of makes it seem like it's not worth your time.
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Oct 9, 2015 06:33
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