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closeted republican posted:Your explanation doesn't excuse her behavior. When your intro to a character includes her firing willy-nilly inside a civilian area with a fancy newtype mobile suit, one of the conflicts in ZZ's wham episodes being Judau trying to talk her down from murdering a wounded Leina, and her character is basically "homicidal little sister from hell", it's kinda hard not to see her as pretty drat weird, insane, and creepy. "Neo Zeon abused her" doesn't justify "attempted to kill the MC's sister by choking her to death because Ple was jealous". Have you spent a lot of time around children? Most children are horrible little monsters by default because they haven't really come to grasp the concept of empathy yet. They'll beat the poo poo out of each other, resort to violence at the drop of a hat for any reason at all or even no reason at all, and will throw screaming tantrums if they don't get what they want instantly. This is simply how kids are naturally and this is why we teach children discipline, empathy, and consideration for others when we raise them and teach them how to operate in human society. A child totally bereft of these socializing influences, such as Puru, is never going to get over the completely self-centered toddler phase of their development. It doesn't make her a creepy character beyond being the creepiness of the natural result of giving a child access to gigantic robots and deadly weaponry without ever teaching them right and wrong or how to empathize with other people. Imagine a child throwing a tantrum in a grocery store because his mom won't buy him candy except that child has a gun, pretty much. Kanos fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Oct 21, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 13:06
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I can't help but feel that the second opening of victory is the producers plea to the viewers. "Don't stop, carry on! We promise there's a payoff to this!" and it's really just to the point where you're just numbed to the shock factor they're going for. However, the mech explosions keep getting more and more ridiculous as time goes on, it's like these suits are literally made of nuclear material. I have no idea what exactly got destroyed in that core explosion, but with the shockwaves it was giving out the answer should have been everything. Onto episode 35. Usso's Confirmed Kill Count: 1828
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Oct 21, 2015 13:12
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TNG posted:ZZ's a funny show, since I am convinced Tomino was having a massive troll-y meltdown that he would only exceed in V Gundam. The title Gundam is this massive chuuni pile of guns and sharp angles, but even today does not quite work at 1/100th or 1/144th scale. And not a lot of the other designs with all their gimmicks do that either. You think the Federation is corrupt and bad? In this one they sell out to Neo Zeon and allow them to drop a colony on Dublin! Neo Zeon itself grows out of the far more restrained Axis remnant as an almost super robot evil empire type bad guy organization. The show literally ends with Judau screaming at how the adults ruin everything. It's like he's taking all the aspects he hates about the Franchise(tm) and all the other the things people expect out of it and moves them up to 11. You want more Gundam? I'll give you the loving Gundam-iest Gundam you've ever had! Honestly the serious parts are sillier to me than the episode where Bright has to catch a Chicken or Moon-Moon. I don't think Tomino was "trolling" his audience at all, that's a weird thing to think. Like you say, it follows the themes of the earlier shows. And when you take it in context with Victory, there's a very clear escalation of crazyness in UC. It starts off with Space Hitler and after that the villains, the people who've lived through the events of the previous series and still want to start a war, get weirder and crazier as time goes on. Puru is good.
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Oct 21, 2015 13:18
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We had a fun little infiltration episode this time around. Usso's mom got to prove she was the most badass woman in the galaxy, Odelo got his time to shine, and even the old dudes in the reinforce got to be sly motherfuckers. Shakti is still naive enough to think she has any power in Zanscare, which is really kind of sad, considering she's been proven wrong twice now. There's something to be said for hope, but failing to do the same thing twice is stupidity. In any case, the boys were able to save Shakti, and the cost of Muller being captured again. I still think Zanscare wins that exchange. Nothing new on the kill fronts, so I'll plug out another episode. ... Episode 36 is a brilliant return to form. Did I say brilliant? I meant soul crushing and aggravating. Usso destroyed a couple of mechs this time around, and help destroyed a dam which surely will lead to catastrophic damage, but not on this battlefield. Anyway, the soul crushing part, because environmental destruction on a massive scale is just a given at this point. The Zanscare have decided to use Muller as a human shield. It works extremely well, so much so that she ends up being decapitated by battleship. Holy poo poo Victory, subtlety is not your game. Anyway, before Usso can completely hulk out on the Adrastea, the Feds and Zanscare sign a cease-fire agreement, stopping the battle abruptly. ... JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU JUST HOLDING HER HEAD... WHAT THE ACTUAL gently caress. OH COME ON! My middle finger is so erect right now! This is the worst, I hate this. Usso's Confirmed Kill Count: 1830 Logicblade fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Oct 21, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 14:33
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Victory is not subtle.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:00
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boom boom boom posted:I don't think Tomino was "trolling" his audience at all, that's a weird thing to think. Like you say, it follows the themes of the earlier shows. And when you take it in context with Victory, there's a very clear escalation of crazyness in UC. It starts off with Space Hitler and after that the villains, the people who've lived through the events of the previous series and still want to start a war, get weirder and crazier as time goes on. Yes, but the way in which ZZ "follows the themes" is to an absurd level. A show with a super toy Gundam whose design precludes it from ever being an effective toy, comically absurd villains even when the show is being serious, and just generally ramping up everything in hilariously reductive ways. I'm not saying the show is bad, but it also stays silly throughout and gets even more-so. It's 80s toy commercial excess, and 80s Japanese nerd culture, and Tomino's own brand of amusement and contempt for the whole thing wrapped into one. It's kind of amazing. Weirder and crazier is right, but I very much think Tomino was having a laugh at the very concept of Gundam shows since the Original and Zeta had become such phenomenons and the production time leading into ZZ was so short.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:50
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TNG posted:Yes, but the way in which ZZ "follows the themes" is to an absurd level. A show with a super toy Gundam whose design precludes it from ever being an effective toy, comically absurd villains even when the show is being serious, and just generally ramping up everything in hilariously reductive ways. I'm not saying the show is bad, but it also stays silly throughout and gets even more-so. It's 80s toy commercial excess, and 80s Japanese nerd culture, and Tomino's own brand of amusement and contempt for the whole thing wrapped into one. It's kind of amazing. Weirder and crazier is right, but I very much think Tomino was having a laugh at the very concept of Gundam shows since the Original and Zeta had become such phenomenons and the production time leading into ZZ was so short. The Zeta is way worse at not working as a toy than the ZZ though. And the production time leading into ZZ wasn't just short, it literally started up right after Zeta, I don't think he had time to develop a hatred for Gundam. I know talking about what Tomnio has said about things is a recipe for bullshit, but I don't think he's said anything negative about ZZ, or honestly, any of his own Gundam shows aside from Victory. Plus, he did a ton of shows between MSG and Zeta, so I don't even know if he would've thought of Gundam as such a big thing, just personally. I think with ZZ, Tomino just made a good robot cartoon, and wasn't pulling a secret prank on someone for no reason.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:58
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Kanos posted:Victory is not subtle. It's also not over yet. 
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Oct 21, 2015 16:14
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TNG posted:Yes, but the way in which ZZ "follows the themes" is to an absurd level. A show with a super toy Gundam whose design precludes it from ever being an effective toy, comically absurd villains even when the show is being serious, and just generally ramping up everything in hilariously reductive ways. I'm not saying the show is bad, but it also stays silly throughout and gets even more-so. It's 80s toy commercial excess, and 80s Japanese nerd culture, and Tomino's own brand of amusement and contempt for the whole thing wrapped into one. It's kind of amazing. Weirder and crazier is right, but I very much think Tomino was having a laugh at the very concept of Gundam shows since the Original and Zeta had become such phenomenons and the production time leading into ZZ was so short. I think you're projecting what you want tomino to be onto everything he's done, and forcing ZZ to fit that mold.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:27
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Meanwhile, as of episode 8, AGE has veered into what feels like formulaic weekly cartoon territory, but it's still pretty decent. 
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Oct 21, 2015 16:35
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Meanwhile, as of episode 8, AGE has veered into what feels like formulaic weekly cartoon territory, but it's still pretty decent. Dude, bail. Save yourself while there's still time  . We won't think less of you for doing so, just the opposite in fact.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:37
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Dude, bail. Save yourself while there's still time I'm riding this train all the way until I can no longer bear it. Riding it very slowly, mind you, but riding it nonetheless.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:42
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Droyer posted:I think you're projecting what you want tomino to be onto everything he's done, and forcing ZZ to fit that mold. I think a notable fact here that backs your statement up is that not only did ZZ start up immediately after Zeta ended, but in preproduction it was referred to as Zeta Gundam Part 2 Srice fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Oct 21, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 17:00
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Also iirc tomino was working on cca at the same time so he would have been more hands off on zz most likely.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:06
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DamnGlitch posted:Also iirc tomino was working on cca at the same time so he would have been more hands off on zz most likely. CCA wasn't approved until about halfway through ZZ.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:20
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Reposting this because I don't think anyone saw the question. I want to read about Bright sentencing his own kid to death. This is how 
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Oct 21, 2015 18:36
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Srice posted:I'm not convinced that ZZ was an attempt to "troll" anything, since it's quite in line with a lot of Tomino's comedies from that era. I dunno, I still feel like the ZZ Gundam itself was definitely an attempt to troll the engineers at Bandai who had to try and come up with workable model kits for it. I also remember in one of the earlier episodes, Beecha (yes, yes, I know, gently caress Beecha) complains about how some of the supplies they're taking on board are just useless junk, and the boxes he's indicating have the Bandai logo on them. I get the impression that Tomino's never been shy about biting the hand that feeds him.
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Oct 21, 2015 18:57
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The Zeta is a fairly sleek and elegant design if you omit the transformation gimmick entirely, which everything above a certain scale doesn't seem to want to do. But oh well. The ZZ is a boxy mess no matter what they decide to sacrifice for stability. It's kind of funny how much the ZZ and V have in common in regards to how they work within the animation compared to how they work in "reality". They're either flimsy as hell or have to really gently caress around with proportions to get their gimmicks working. Even with today's Gunpla engineering, they still kinda of suck, imagine late 80s or early 90s Bandai trying to reproduce them. Tomino having a poo poo fit about the rampant commercial part of the franchise just fits with everything I know about the man, but people are right, it's hard to say for sure. But my feeling about ZZ is still that's it's talking more to how Gundam works as a franchise than anything else. Which I think is an interesting approach and makes ZZ unique, since it goes just beyond drat ADULTS and into the minds of people that are responding to Gundam in 1986-87. ZZ is also funny when you look at the costuming of the new characters. Zeta very much had a space future 80s type look, but ZZ takes it as step further into reality with gymnastic outfits, legwarmers, and muscle shirts under vests with medallions. I found myself wondering where Beecha's Members Only jacket was. It's Not Anime indeed. Neo Zeon goes the other way with remixed 80s space fascist and super tacky headdresses. Man, I wonder what possessed Haman to get in that getup. I thought her black jumpsuit was really classy. TNG fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Oct 21, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 19:14
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Marida would have been perfectly fine if you change her ending. Yeah, her backstory is pretty grimdarky, but I was willing to go along with it so long as there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Instead Gundam Unicorn should have the subtitle "Life Hates Marida Cruz." I'm pretty sure I mentally checked out of the last film when she bit it. It was just too much.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:10
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Tae posted:CCA wasn't approved until about halfway through ZZ. I've never actually seen any kind of source for that, beyond someone once linking to MAHQ's ZZ summary, which I wouldn't take as a source personally. I know Mark has worked for Sunrise, but any other information he's given on series production has been sourced from Gundam books like the various bibles and encyclopedias that the franchise has generated, meaning I doubt he has any personal knowledge on that side of things unless otherwise stated.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:11
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Shinjobi posted:Marida would have been perfectly fine if you change her ending. Yeah, her backstory is pretty grimdarky, but I was willing to go along with it so long as there was a light at the end of the tunnel. One thing I think The OVA did well was how it never really went into detail on Marida's backstory like the books did (I think). She should have survived though, se was the coolest character in Unicorn
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Oct 21, 2015 20:12
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Droyer posted:One thing I think The OVA did well was how it never really went into detail on Marida's backstory like the books did (I think). She should have survived though, se was the coolest character in Unicorn Nah, it does. It doesn't go into excruciating detail but she has a flashback which makes things real clear.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:14
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If you put it in the abstract the Purus are a cool idea. Clones made to fight in crazy psychic war machines, but it kind of lost the plot somewhere along the way (for me). Marida being the last surviving clone of a series of psychic super soldiers would be cool and THEORETICALLY you could handle the whole sexual slavery thing in a decent way in some form but not by that author.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:15
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ImpAtom posted:Nah, it does. It doesn't go into excruciating detail but she has a flashback which makes things real clear. Oh. Praise retracted then
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Oct 21, 2015 20:15
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He looks pretty good.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:18
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Droyer posted:One thing I think The OVA did well was how it never really went into detail on Marida's backstory like the books did (I think). She should have survived though, se was the coolest character in Unicorn It wasn't as explicit as the book, but it went into it with the flashback where she's always reaching out for something. Mirida Cruz's problem is that narratologically she's basically Cordelia. She's there to maintain a purity of character untainted (to an extent, she does have serenity of self by the time Riddhe frags her) by all the evil things that have been forced upon her, then to die to expand the tragedy of the male characters and give them insight about the conflict.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:20
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Why even give her her own arc if you're just going to kill her in the most stupid and pointless way possible.
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Oct 21, 2015 22:40
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A character dying doesn't mean their life was pointless and Marida's arc influenced both herself and those around her, including her death. I don't think she needed to die but it wasn't like all her development and impact on others vanished when she did.
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Oct 21, 2015 22:44
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Maybe technically but it's the kind of needless death that detracts from things like that by basically frustrating viewers who chose to invest in the character only for the same ol' poo poo to happen yet again for no actual narrative gain.
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Oct 21, 2015 22:50
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Oh Snapple! posted:Maybe technically but it's the kind of needless death that detracts from things like that by basically frustrating viewers who chose to invest in the character only for the same ol' poo poo to happen yet again for no actual narrative gain. There is narrative gain. It's just that (and understandably frustratingly) it is for other characters. Zimmerman, for example, loses his daughter again but in doing so is able to avoid falling into the same cycle that caused him to end up in that same position again. We see an example that Zeon CAN break out of the eternal cycle of revenge even when something terrible happens again. Riddhe is kind of blatant and obvious. One thing I think is missed is that Marida's death is portrayed as her becoming a true Newtype instead of the cyber-Newtype she was before. She gets to ascend and become something more than human even if it means losing her humanity which plays into what happens near the ending It is, however, still unsatisfying because regardless of how it thematically makes sense it is still "oh look, Cyber Newtype Girl Dies Again For A Dude's Character Development."
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Oct 21, 2015 22:54
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ImpAtom posted:A character dying doesn't mean their life was pointless and Marida's arc influenced both herself and those around her, including her death. A character dying doesn't necessarily mean their story arc was pointless, but it needs to be done in a way that furthers the narrative. In Marida's, she learned to live beyong the horror of her past, learned to finally start making her own decisions and reconciles with her adoptive father figure. She then dies due to another character having randomly become bad. He then feels bad about killing her and joins the good guys. The good guys forgive him, because her ghost tell them too. That's loving garbage. A perfect example of fridging in this day and age. Her entire arc about learning to live is completely eliminated, because they needed RIddhe to feel bad. She could have done nothing in the entire series and it would have had the same impact.
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Oct 21, 2015 22:57
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If you didn't know she was gonna die IDK what to tell ya. She was a great character, it's a shame she died, it didn't detract from the experience for me because I always assumed she was gonna die. The real shame is how slipshod and wackadoo the fight with Neo Zeong is.
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Oct 22, 2015 00:07
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DamnGlitch posted:because I always assumed she was gonna die. Why? That's literally the question here, there's no reason for her to die other than Gundam clichés, and her dying was actively bad for the narrative.
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Oct 22, 2015 00:09
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Why? That's literally the question here, there's no reason for her to die other than Gundam clichés, and her dying was actively bad for the narrative. Because it's Gundam Unicorn, and Gundam Unicorn was cobbled together out of Gundam cliches
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Oct 22, 2015 00:10
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I saw Gundam Unicorn before I saw ZZ, and when I watched ZZ I was amazed at how many of the Unicorn MS designs are just slightly different versions of earlier UC suits. It was not a creative show.
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Oct 22, 2015 00:12
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Why? That's literally the question here, there's no reason for her to die other than Gundam clichés, and her dying was actively bad for the narrative. boom boom boom posted:Because it's Gundam Unicorn, and Gundam Unicorn was cobbled together out of Gundam cliches I love Unicorn but yeah it's Gundam by the numbers and that means she was marked from the start.
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Oct 22, 2015 00:14
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Malibu Stacy, with new hat!....er cuffs!
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Oct 22, 2015 00:14
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DamnGlitch posted:If you didn't know she was gonna die IDK what to tell ya. She was a great character, it's a shame she died, it didn't detract from the experience for me because I always assumed she was gonna die. A lot of the investment in Marida was born out of a desperate hope that maybe - just maybe - they wouldn't fridge yet another woman just because "lol gundam, bitch." It was essentially a ticking timebomb that was never going to inspire anything in viewers other than a cratering of interest and a "gently caress this" response.
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Oct 22, 2015 00:14
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Not to mention her past has a lot of sexual violence, and the novel is even worse about it but Marida turns out a bit differently there, so you have the politics of Madonna/Whore to contend with. Marida's a big goddamn mess of a character. I mean jeez, when you're dealing with things like coerced prostitution and sexual violence, I think you need to be very careful with how the character ultimately ends up. The fact that she's exists to further Riddhe's sense of self and identity is a goddamn shame. Maybe....don't have a man kill her so that that man can use it for character development? A character that's been used by men her entire life, gets used by a man at the very end and she's just a-okay with that. Distasteful really.
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Oct 22, 2015 00:18
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It's one of the reasons why I'm not really as cool with Riddhe as others sometimes are. He was a frustrating character to follow, and even if that was the point I found no satisfaction in his character arc of "hurrrr durrrr protect the status quo oh wait I'm a cockbag." Even if it works as a character arc, it wasn't enjoyable to follow at all.
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Oct 22, 2015 04:13
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