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Usso's Confirmed Kill Count: 1832 Core explosions are still ridiculous. Oh, and now people scream when they blow up, tasteful.
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Oct 22, 2015 04:33
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Unicorn is a poo poo mess of bad storytelling and it boggles my loving mind how willing people are to throw themselves onto a sword in its defense
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Oct 22, 2015 04:34
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mr. stefan posted:Unicorn is a poo poo mess of bad storytelling and it boggles my loving mind how willing people are to throw themselves onto a sword in its defense the robot fights are the least important part of the good gundam shows is the secret about gundam unfortunately unicorn is all gundam fights and nothing else
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Oct 22, 2015 04:43
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gundam forgets that usually its bits outside the robots are really cool and good. i was legit interested in politicians scheming at each other in gundam 00 and I was very sad when they opened up the second half with 'okay no more of that now the antagonists are exactly the same thing as the titans', even if it was there for a decentish reason they do so many robot fights to sell toys, in truth, but to be honest it's probably in their best interest to make a handful of really striking and iconic designs rather than dozens upon dozens of somewhat forgettable ones, and just make more varieties of figures for those. it means they stick out better in the audiences memory, are more greatly appreciated down the road and thus can be remade a lot, and you have to animate less fancy shiny robots swerving around IBO, so far, is doing this right
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Oct 22, 2015 05:07
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Unicorn is basically another 0083: a very, very, very dumb and poorly written show that's still worth watching to see cool robots kick each other's rear end with beautiful animation.
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Oct 22, 2015 05:13
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Gyra_Solune posted:gundam forgets that usually its bits outside the robots are really cool and good. i was legit interested in politicians scheming at each other in gundam 00 and I was very sad when they opened up the second half with 'okay no more of that now the antagonists are exactly the same thing as the titans', even if it was there for a decentish reason Gundam 00's second season got beaten into them from on-high for being "un-Gundam", sadly  . Though I did like the 0-Gundam looking like a GN-equipped RX-78-2.
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Oct 22, 2015 05:41
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I really like Ridhe's character arc, which is more than I can say about any of the characters in 0083.
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Oct 22, 2015 10:35
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^similarly, I really enjoyed the stupid twist of Banagher saving the day by essentially being a petulant child. "Even so" winning the fight is the stupidest loving thing, but I still laughed. Compare that to Nina Purpleton and her stupid twist. I didn't really laugh at that. Unicorn's better than 0083, but not by a ton.
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Oct 22, 2015 10:46
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I really like that the conflict is resolved not so much by fighting as by Mineva going on television and saying "You know what? Zeon is kind of retarded. Let's not do that poo poo again, because it's not really worth it and I don't want anyone using me as an excuse for war". Char's Counterattack definitely has the more iconic finale for Zeon, but I prefer Unicorns, because I think it's more reasonable that a speech by a representative of a faction that denounces that faction and it's ideals ends up being the final grave of Zeon, than Char's own soldiers turning on him in a split second and then no-one ever questioning the cause again despite nothing really being disproved about it. Yea, Unicorn's finale is kind of stupid, but so is Char's Counterattacks in several ways and I at least prefer the base idea of Unicorns to be honest.
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Oct 22, 2015 11:03
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Unicorn and 0083 are both good. 
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Oct 22, 2015 11:07
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tsob posted:I really like that the conflict is resolved not so much by fighting as by Mineva going on television and saying "You know what? Zeon is kind of retarded. Let's not do that poo poo again, because it's not really worth it and I don't want anyone using me as an excuse for war". Char's Counterattack definitely has the more iconic finale for Zeon, but I prefer Unicorns, because I think it's more reasonable that a speech by a representative of a faction that denounces that faction and it's ideals ends up being the final grave of Zeon, than Char's own soldiers turning on him in a split second and then no-one ever questioning the cause again despite nothing really being disproved about it. The problem with this reading is that the conflict isn't resolved by Mineva's speech, the conflict is resolved by Banagher/Riddhe killing Full Frontal and the Gryps 2 Colony Laser erasing the main Sleeves fleet from existence while trying to stop Mineva's speech from airing. Nobody from Zeon changes their minds as a result of what Mineva says because they're either dead or they don't care(Zeon terrorists attempt to melt the polar ice caps immediately in response to Mineva's speech). The conflict in CCA is resolved by everyone coming together to save the planet together in spite of Char's insistence that it would never happen and has immediate, clear results. The conflict in Unicorn is resolved by a small team of special snowflake newtype kids killing a guy and then the attempted Federation coverup wiping out that guy's forces by accident while trying to kill the special snowflake newtype squad. Then the special snowflake newtype squad fucks off and is never heard from again. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 11:43
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Unicorn takes Newtype magic to a new extreme, and that's saying something considering stuff like the Axis Shock. The Axis Shock is a miracle that happens due to the collective will of humanity. Banana can block a colony laser and disable hundreds of mobile suits with a literal hand wave because he has a magical robot.
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Oct 22, 2015 13:40
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I really can't stop harping on this. The Axis Shock is an effective ending to early UC because of it basically being the world's collective reply to Char's nihilism. Char, in a state of nihilistic despair, says "gently caress the world, humanity sucks too much rear end to ever improve on its own, I'm going to force them to move on" and humanity as a whole, collective entity says "No, gently caress you, dickhead. There's still hope for all of us to work together". CCA has a myriad of problems as a production but the ending is not one of them, it's one of the most effective and strong endings in Gundam. Unicorn's ending has no meaningful effect on anyone but the characters already involved. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 14:14
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Kanos posted:I really can't stop harping on this. Then I will. This is exactly what I mean when I say the old thread had the same repetitive argument over and over. Either say something new or change the topic of conversation. p.s. This isn't directed towards you specifically Kanos, but I feel I have to put my foot down now.
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Oct 22, 2015 14:17
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No offense taken! I just really like CCA's ending a lot.  To steer the topic to something different but related, I'd really like to see a series set in something like UC 100 or 101 to see what sort of reaction the world as a whole had to the Axis Shock and the Sleeves nonsense. We have a rough idea what happened(frantic Federation coverup), but there's generally a huge 20 year gap between Unicorn and F90 and by the time F90 hits "early UC" is largely done with. We know that the Federation began to teeter and collapse under its own rotten weight in that period but that's about it as far as specifics. The problem is of course the standard Gundam problem, where they'd have to manufacture some sort of mobile suit conflict to center a story like that around because Gundam productions always need giant robots at the forefront even when they're not really that necessary to the story. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 14:37
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Kanos posted:No offense taken! I just really like CCA's ending a lot. There is some information about that time, but it's mostly about the decline of Anaheim and rise of SNRI to explain the miniaturization of Mobile Suits. Also I read that on Gundam Wiki, so pinch of salt and all that.
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Oct 22, 2015 14:42
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CCA is also good.
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Oct 22, 2015 14:43
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I've no idea what arguments were in the old thread since I didn't read large chunks of it, and this might get me probated I suppose, but I'm going to put the argument out anyways, because the way the end of Char's Counterattack is often touted annoys me.Kanos posted:I really can't stop harping on this. The Axis Shock is an effective ending to early UC because of it basically being the world's collective reply to Char's nihilism. Char, in a state of nihilistic despair, says "gently caress the world, humanity sucks too much rear end to ever improve on its own, I'm going to force them to move on" and humanity as a whole, collective entity says "No, gently caress you, dickhead. There's still hope for all of us to work together". CCA has a myriad of problems as a production but the ending is not one of them, it's one of the most effective and strong endings in Gundam. Everyone, everywhere, including Unicorn and apparently the CCA novels, says that the Axis shock is the collective will of humanity and I just think it's absolute bollox. You can harp on about it all you want, but I don't see how it's the collective will of humanity any more than Unicorn's newtype magic is. To me, the finale of Char's Counterattack is the collective will of perhaps a few dozen people, several of whom only decided to help on what looks like a moment's notice and give no acknowledgement that they've just betrayed their apparent cause to do so. And honestly, I don't even think it needs to be more than that. The Axis shock being caused by all those pilots willing to sacrifice themselves to achieve the impossible out of sheer desperation is good as it is. The Neo-Zeon remnants helping is good too, though I think they could at least acknowledge their change of heart on the matter. Apparently they don't need to though, because according to /m/ they did it because they heard Amuro's will thanks to his newtype powers and they're only acting because of that, which is also the reason all the Federation pilots do it according to the same people and I loving hate that. I hate it at least partially because there's literally nothing in the film to substantiate the idea that any of those people heard, felt or otherwise sensed Amuro's desire or idea, but I mostly hate it because to me it devalues their actions to suggest they do so. Amuro decides to push back Axis out of sheer desperation, Bright tries to do the same thing using the Nahel Argama a few seconds later and gives that exact reason (we can't just sit here and watch the Earth be ruined), and then not long after several squads of Feddie pilots arrive and immediately dive in to help Amuro. Bright's point sums up the feeling all of them were having, so why the gently caress would they need Amuro's direction to need to do the exact same thing Amuro himself just did? And I like the idea that that's what changes the Zeon pilot's minds. Zeon soldiers have often been portrayed as passionate idealists who act for a cause they believe in and in opposition to Feddies who are just guys doing a job and maintaining the status quo by doing so. So to me, their decision to help is much more effective if they do it because they see all these Federation soldiers suddenly willing to lay down their lives for an impossible act out of sheer desperation, because that speaks to an ideal that they can empathize with and gives the Federation a humanity in their eyes that was missing all along. Saying that Amuro gave them newtype feels and they suddenly changed their mind because of it is just cheap in comparison. That chain of events to me is already a good ending that puts the lie to Char's nihilism on it's own. It doesn't need to be the collective will of humanity. And I don't see the collective will of humanity in it. Most of humanity is apparently unaware it even happened according to the ending, because a minute or two later you see people going about their lives like normal and wondering what they're seeing. We get no scenes of people in desperation wishing for Axis to be averted, we get no scenes of anyone hearing Amuro's voice, we get nothing to connect even the people on the nearby ships to the event by having them hoping that Amuro's wild plan comes off. Nothing. So how is it the collective will of humanity? Yea, all of those things would be cheesy as gently caress, they'd also probably be hamfisted, but it's a cheesy and hamfisted message so that's kind of unavoidable if you want to actually put across the idea that all of humanity caused the miracle to happen in the first place. Saying that it's the collective will of humanity would seem to imply that the psychoframe is able to passively collect the unconscious desires of all humanity across thousands of miles regardless of whether they're even aware of what's going on or not. And if it can do that in Char's Counterattack to fuel the Axis shock, then gently caress it, it can do it in Unicorn to fuel Banana and Riddhe's poo poo, because it's the same stuff in both sets of suits. There's also the fact that as Amuro and Char are arguing Amuro makes reference to wanting or needing to show humanity the light of the human heart in response to Char's nihilism. Which I think is what the final shots of the film of all those people looking up are. Amuro wasn't just able to act as the catalyst for a miracle, he was able to show people the light of the human heart by doing so thanks to the psychoframe. You can't have it both ways though. You can't have all of humanity acting in concert and then needing to be shown why they should be acting in concert in the first place. What's even worse though is that you say that Unicorn sucks because it has no effect on anyone but the characters involved, which in context would imply that you think Char's Counterattack's finale has an effect on more than the direct cast and that's just nonsense. F91 is set only 31 years after Char's Counterattack and is not only not mentioned or even inferred in any way, it's basically the start up of a new Zeon movement under a different name. Not only does everybody forget it even happened in the immediate aftermath, but it also has no effect in either the long or the short term really, because nothing changes for at least a few thousand years. So exactly what effect did it have? It might sound like I'm very down on the film, but I actually like the finale of the film and even agree with Kanos that it's one of the most effective and strong endings in Gundam. I think a lot of the stuff leading up to it is kind of mediocre, but the ending itself is very memorable. I just don't think it has anything to do with all humanity or that it actually had any real effect on things, either within the show or in the franchise as a whole. Why I like Unicorn's ending, at least as an idea, is that I don't see how the events of Char's Counterattack would have had any effect on Zeon sympathizers not directly involved in the Axis shock itself. Nothing Char ever did acted to disabuse any of his followers of Zeon's cause. Quite the opposite, his plan to gently caress Earth gained him more followers, not less. Nor did any such sympathizers who weren't there see or know anything that would disillusion or dissuade them of wanting to follow those ideals in future. Mineva's speech might not have been a great dissuasion, but it's at least something. And I like that, because it makes more sense as a reason why the Zeon flag would never be raised again in future. Another flag idealizing much the same thing might be, but Zeon at least wasn't. And that's fine. I don't have a problem with that, because Unicorn didn't try to say it was ever going to be about anything but the death of Zeon, so another cause taking advantage of people is in line with both Tomino's vision of Gundam and people in general. Edit: Somewhat related, but this is also why I wish that Char's Counterattack had never been made in the first place and we'd just gotten the original Zeta Part II instead. The end of that, with the majority of people moving off Earth and in to the colonies with Judau going to Mars to help colonize it implies that any successive series would have moved the setting on a bit and introduced a new conflict. Instead of Earth versus the Lagrangian Colonies, we'd presumably have gotten Earth and the Lagrangian Colonies v Mars, with Judau as the Martian Deikun. It's not a massive change in direction for the franchise, but it would have been an interesting change none the less in my opinion and I wish we'd gotten that version of events instead. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 15:10
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I want to live in your world, where 30 years of peace is basically nothing. Also the Crossbone Vanguard is completely different form Zeon in ideology and aesthetics so calling them Zeon by another name is incredibly dumb.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:27
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Droyer posted:Then I will. This is exactly what I mean when I say the old thread had the same repetitive argument over and over. Either say something new or change the topic of conversation. Okay then: Char is a misunderstood, poorly-plotted, pedophile, and psycho-bitch that caused everyone in Wing to go crazy, used the magic T to stop Axis, caused Unicorn to be superflous, ruined CCA's pacing, made G Gundam the best anime of all time, mandated a fight per episode, rewrote the history books so that Zeon did nothing wrong, and generally made Gundam a terrible franchise that has only one or two salvagable shows in it.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:39
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Droyer posted:I want to live in your world, where 30 years of peace is basically nothing. Also the Crossbone Vanguard is completely different form Zeon in ideology and aesthetics so calling them Zeon by another name is incredibly dumb. 30 years of peace isn't what Amuro was aiming for though. Amuro wanted to prove that people could change and move beyond. Whether that beyond is beyond conflict over nationality, byeond conflict over newtypism, beyond their short-sighted mistreatment of Earth or what, 30 years of peace and thousands of years of war doesn't change that people never did thanks to the way the franchise works. Also, Cosmo Babylonia were a group who took over one colony and declared their independence from Earth before trying to force their way in to the control of the rest of the colonies using the backing of the Jupitarians and had ambitions on Earth, which they cloaked under the guise of nobility. Which is basically the Zabis. They used newtypism as well to get the people of their side to support them, but they were mostly protesting how lovely the Federation were to get followers. There's very little difference between them and Zeon.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:41
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The argument of "there wasn't a giant instant shift in humanity, ergo everyone who has any form of optimism is wrong" is really silly and ignores that nobody expected people to change overnight. Amuro has a semi-famous speech where he says people can't change overnight and he doesn't expect it.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:44
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Zeon in all its incarnations are driven by the belief that humans should leave earth, partly because they believe it is holding us back and partly because they are aware humanity is destroying it. It was hijacked by dictators like Gihren and Haman, but that is its ideological core. Cosmo Babylonia is driven by its desire for an aristocratic society and nothing else. While Zeon's leadership and methods make them bad, their ideology is basically good (as seen in the AEUG, which is basically good Zeon). Cosmo Babylonia however is rotten to the core, and I don't think it's fair to call them equivalent.
Droyer fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 15:52
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Char is an absolute shitstain, but mainstream UC Gundam is about 50% a chronicle of Char's gradual descent into insanity anyway. Cosmo Babylonia's ideology is basically the Zabis' stance on power and nothing else, i.e. without any of economic or ecological policies that were the core of Deikun's Zeonism if you read all the supplemental material. The problem is that the "main" Gundam shows don't actually talk about those policies all that much, so Zeon is usually reduced to "independence from Earth, fascism, warcrimes, 19th century aristocracy," and Cosmo Babylonia fits at least three of those. Whether Degwin Zabi believed in Deikun's actual ideology or just wanted to be a space dictator also changes depending on what you read, so we have no idea how much of the pre-OYW Republic's politics actually carried over to the Principality. We do know that the Principality was aristocratic, populist, fascist and militaristic, though, so it's pretty fair to compare Cosmo Babylonia directly to the Principality of Zeon because it's pretty close to how Zeon was depicted in MSG79. Since these are very popular fictional characters who are constantly subject to reinterpretation, we'll never have a definitive and exhaustive list of the Republic and Principality's political ideologies, or any comprehensive idea of the doctrinal differences between the Republic, Principality, New Republic, Axis Neo-Zeon, Reborn Neo-Zeon, the Sleeves and the gigantic clusterfuck of balkanised factional politics that were the Zeon remnants on Earth. Which, incidentally, is one of the main reasons I like UC Gundam so much, because Zeon's factionalism is pretty drat realistic. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 16:06
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CCA represented the effective death of Zeon as a serious military entity capable of challenging the Federation. After Char's Neo Zeon was broken in CCA, Zeon/Axis as a unified government and military force was destroyed forever; the only successors to Neo Zeon are scattered terrorist/guerilla groups like the Sleeves and the few crazy assholes who went and formed Mars Zeon. The late UC villains like Cosmo Babylonia, the Jupiter Empire, the Crossbone Vanguard, and Zanscare have absolutely nothing to do with Zeon. In fact, the legacy of CCA in the Universal Century is that after CCA happened large scale war between the colonies and Earth pretty much stopped entirely. War only returned in force when assholes from Jupiter and the Asteroid Belt came back and tried to conquer everything. I'd say pretty much ending war in the Earth sphere for decades is a pretty big achievement.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:23
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Seriously, what is with all the hilarious character names in Gundam? The characters with relatively normal names are way outnumbered by the ones with absolute gibberish names or bizarre double entendres or both (looking at you Jamitov Hymen).
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Oct 22, 2015 16:37
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LORD OF BUTT posted:Seriously, what is with all the hilarious character names in Gundam? The characters with relatively normal names are way outnumbered by the ones with absolute gibberish names or bizarre double entendres or both (looking at you Jamitov Hymen). Tomino has a long tradition of goofy names even outside of Gundam. L-Gaim had Gavlet Gablae, Amandara Kamandara, Oldna Posaydal, Kuwasan Olibee, and Full Flat. Dunbine had Burn Burnings and Shot Weapon.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:39
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LORD OF BUTT posted:Seriously, what is with all the hilarious character names in Gundam? The characters with relatively normal names are way outnumbered by the ones with absolute gibberish names or bizarre double entendres or both (looking at you Jamitov Hymen). I have a theory that it was originally intended as having names from many different cultures, since all of earth is one nation, but without doing much actual research on names. Then later on it stuck as tradition.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:43
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THey just sound cool in Japanese, thats it.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:47
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LORD OF BUTT posted:Seriously, what is with all the hilarious character names in Gundam? The characters with relatively normal names are way outnumbered by the ones with absolute gibberish names or bizarre double entendres or both (looking at you Jamitov Hymen). quote:Fixx Bloodman teams up with Commander Killing, Jamacian Daninghan, and Full Frontal in order to take over Earth. A rag-tag resistance group lead by South Burning, Ryu Jose, Bork Cry, Chibodee Crockett, and Job John fight Bloodman's forces on Earth, which include the fiendish Clamp, Brave Cod, and Mashymre Cello. Elepo Ple and Suberoa Zinnerman eventually defect to Burning's crew. They bring with them the Bolinoak Sammahn, which is altered by Astonaige Medoz and Kid Salsamille into the Gundam Pixie.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:49
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But where do Klimton Nicchini and his friends Mick Jack, Turbo Brocken, and Cumpa Rusita play in? Not to mention his father Zuchini Nicchini.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:59
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LORD OF BUTT posted:Seriously, what is with all the hilarious character names in Gundam? The characters with relatively normal names are way outnumbered by the ones with absolute gibberish names or bizarre double entendres or both (looking at you Jamitov Hymen). A lot of people don't speak more than one or two languages, which means most Japanese authors don't have a solid grasp of what constitutes a reasonable-sounding non-Japanese name, so they just pick something that sounds cool in Japanese. Also, on top of that, romanisation isn't exactly globally standardised so sometimes you'll get stuff that ends up looking really dumb in the Latin alphabet. This is why you get names like Four Vaginas and Full Frontal Nudity, Bright Noa, Fraw Bow or Casval Deikun, even if e.g. those last three can all be explained away in-setting as linguistic drift in a post-globalisation future that's several centuries ahead of us.
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Oct 22, 2015 17:02
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Should I watch the new Gundam anime? Also I've only ever seen Wing as a kid and the movie for that growing up. What gundam should I watch (I know I should watch the original, but confused what order like aren't the movies supposed to be better than the normal anime?)
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Oct 22, 2015 17:14
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Weird as poo poo Gundam names are tradition. The ones that crack me up are the ones that sound like they could be real words but are like 1-2 letters off. Like Bring Stabity. So, so close to actually being a word that it just becomes a joke. South Burning. Lockon Stratos. It's like having somebody named Millennium Falcon. Quit thumbing through a foreign language dictionary for character names.
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Oct 22, 2015 17:16
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Should I watch the new Gundam anime? Iron-Blood Orphans is a completely stand-alone universe, and yes you should because it's fantastic. If you want a decent rendition of the original series, go read Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin. It's a series of hardcover manga retelling it with decent pacing and having the benefit of not being written on the fly only to have to fudge the last 25 episodes of content down to 15. The Missing Link posted:South Burning. Lockon Stratos. The Gundam-00 Meisters don't really count, as those were all codenames to protect their identities. Lockon's real name is a much more mundane Neil Dylandy.
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Oct 22, 2015 17:18
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Should I watch the new Gundam anime? The new Gundam series is pretty interesting so far, and it continues Gundam's current streak of having loving fantastic fight scenes that was started by Build Fighters and Unicorn. Neddy Seagoon posted:The Gundam-00 Meisters don't really count, as those were all codenames to protect their identities. Lockon's real name is a much more mundane Neil Dylandy. That's a little more case by case, since Allelujah Haptism was just some weird kid that got that name from another weird kid. That being said, mentioning great 00 names and missing Daryl Dodge is a crime. TARDISman fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 17:19
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Should I watch the new Gundam anime? The new gundam show is pretty good so far, I'd recommend it. If you just want to dip your toes into gundam I'd suggest you watch 0080: War in the pocket. It's very good, short, and doesn't require any previous knowledge
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Oct 22, 2015 17:21
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Should I watch the new Gundam anime? The MSG movies are the way to go, yeah. Much better pacing, and some scenes are redone for the better. The gains heavily outweigh the minor losses
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Oct 22, 2015 17:21
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Seconding that 0080 is a real good place to start tho
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Oct 22, 2015 17:24
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Thanks for the help guys! Gundam always seemed so daunting to watch because there's so much so I'll definitely start with these recs.
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Oct 22, 2015 17:26
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