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The CG is really loving horrible and sucks any entertainment out of them. Not that I would have gotten a lot since they were pure space nazi apologism.
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Oct 27, 2015 11:43
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I don't like Zeon fans specifically because mainstream OYW-era Zeon are space Nazis, so I'd rather we have a bunch of UC material that makes the conflict less Manichaean so that unapologetic Zeon fans can stop being so creepy. Hopefully IGLOO is more this and less "space Nazis rock!" I realise I'm inverting cause and effect, here. 
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 11:48
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Shinjobi posted:I am a big fan of roller/skating mechs. Tiny detail I really enjoyed about the Zone of the Enders games is how if you fly as low as you can on land you'll grind and throw sparks everywhere. The first season had a lot of amazing fight choreography but once everything gets Float packs in the second season the magic and creativity seems to fade away for the most part.
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Oct 27, 2015 11:59
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I hope you're happy; you've making me watch IGLOO now. I've stayed away from it until now because of the CGI. Look at it this way, the more you postpone watching it, the worse it will look. It's not much of an investment compared to most other options either. Lemon Curdistan posted:I don't like Zeon fans specifically because mainstream OYW-era Zeon are space Nazis, so I'd rather we have a bunch of UC material that makes the conflict less Manichaean so that unapologetic Zeon fans can stop being so creepy. Hopefully IGLOO is more this and less "space Nazis rock!" I've always thought of Zeon as more Space Russians in terms of history, politics, and the vast coldness of
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Oct 27, 2015 12:09
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Nasgate posted:I've always thought of Zeon as more Space Russians in terms of history, politics, and the vast coldness of They're Space Nazis. They have Space Dictators, Space Eugenics, Space Atrocities and Space Cool Uniforms. There's very little Russian about them. I mean, they're technically modelled off Imperial Japan with 19th century European aristocratic aesthetics, but they're still Space Nazis. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 12:13
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I don't like Zeon fans specifically because mainstream OYW-era Zeon are space Nazis, so I'd rather we have a bunch of UC material that makes the conflict less Manichaean so that unapologetic Zeon fans can stop being so creepy. Hopefully IGLOO is more this and less "space Nazis rock!" Igloo makes them even more space nazi, particularly in the uniforms, if that's even possible. Igloo does adhere to the "regular soldiers are normal people" that's been standard since 0079.
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Oct 27, 2015 12:14
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Nasgate posted:Look at it this way, the more you postpone watching it, the worse it will look. It's not much of an investment compared to most other options either. "You're turning into Hitler", the sovereign ruler says to his oldest son, the supreme commander of a space army undertaking a war of aggression. That doesn't say Nazi to you?
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Oct 27, 2015 13:23
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Reds posted:Igloo makes them even more space nazi, particularly in the uniforms, if that's even possible. Igloo goes a little beyond "regular soldiers are normal people" and into "regular Zeon soldiers are brave heroes who would easily smite down all who opposed them in the name of Zeon if only they weren't stabbed in the back by faulty equipment and poor supplies". Vindicator posted:"You're turning into Hitler", the sovereign ruler says to his oldest son, the supreme commander of a space army undertaking a war of aggression. That doesn't say Nazi to you? "You're turning into Hitler", the sovereign ruler says to his oldest son, the supreme commander of a space army undertaking a war of aggression. His oldest son takes it as a compliment.
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Oct 27, 2015 13:44
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Yeah, IGLOO definitely has a "Zeon soldiers are just normal people" theme, but then the higher ups send children out on suicide missions and they constantly abandon the science team to die and ignore any actual field testing conducted so calling it pro-Zeon is still a bit of a stretch, even with the Zeon flag waving at the end of every episode. It's also a lot less Zeon centric in season 2.
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Oct 27, 2015 13:47
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If anything it underlines "wow the people in charge were major dicks," even to their own soldiers.
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Oct 27, 2015 13:47
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everythingWasBees posted:Yeah, IGLOO definitely has a "Zeon soldiers are just normal people" theme, but then the higher ups send children out on suicide missions and they constantly abandon the science team to die and ignore any actual field testing conducted so calling it pro-Zeon is still a bit of a stretch, even with the Zeon flag waving at the end of every episode. It's also a lot less Zeon centric in season 2. I dunno, season 2 is all Federation based but all of the Federation focus characters in season 2 are hosed up crazy people who make terrible decisions that ultimately cause their deaths(and in the case of ep3 actively undermine their side's cause). It's a pretty stark contrast to Heroic Noble Zudah Pilot and Whoa Look At Hildolfr Pilot He's A Drug Addict But Is Still Nearly Invincible In This Thing. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 14:00
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Kanos posted:"You're turning into Hitler", the sovereign ruler says to his oldest son, the supreme commander of a space army undertaking a war of aggression. His oldest son takes it as a compliment. I think it's less that he takes it as a compliment and more he's like "You call me Hitler? I'll SHOW you Hitler old man!"
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Oct 27, 2015 15:09
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No, it's that he takes it as a compliment.
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Oct 27, 2015 15:39
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I still think whoever said earlier that Zeon is Imperial Japan was right. The One Year War is pretty much the Pacific Theater in Outer Space. If it wasn't obvious from the naval parallels, the last episode makes it perfectly clear when Zeon is forced into throwing untrained cadets into advanced mobile suits and watching them get slaughtered by the Federation's ace pilots.
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Oct 27, 2015 16:32
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If anything, Zeon is more in line with Imperial Japan as far as ideology goes.They don't claim racial superiority, but rather moral and spiritual preeminence, which is point number 1 in Showa fascism. Ghiren gets ballyhooed around as Space Hitler a lot, by his own father even, but if you look closely at the Garma funeral speech, it's more in line with what Imperial propagandists were saying at the beginning of the war. Zeon propaganda is also all about fighting for "freedom" against a corrupt and decadent overpower, which you apparently do by launching an aggressive war of conquest. This lines up with how your average Mobile Task Force soldier was being sold on the idea that invading China, Korea, the Philippines, and the all the US territories was actually the right thing to do to combat the morally decadent and imperialist West. It's interesting how the philosophy of North Korea's Juche grew out of this, but that's another discussion. Either way, what made the original Gundam special was that Tomino was willing to turn the lens of criticism onto Japan's past. Which is one of the reasons I like it as an anti-war piece, since it was not giving Japan a pass for its violence and brutality by allowing it to feel pride or admiration for itself. That's gotten co-opted over the years, because Japanese nationalism has revived for a variety of reasons. There's also the government itself being more than fine with historical revisionism and white washing. MS IGLOO is stupid for the same reason that Space Battleship Yamato's initial scenario is stupid, because rather than looking at why a military-industrial complex would allow these sorts of machines to be made in the first place it instead puts all the focus on the "bravery" of the dumb bastards they get to fly and sail the things. Never mind that this whole system of militarism is flawed at every level, these men are brave and die brave deaths for what they believe in! Sure our government is corrupt and probably evil, but aren't these men and women the bravest? It's more of a hagiography of Zeon's martyrs than anything else. The reason I never buy the argument that IGLOO is critical of Zeon is that it still revels in its dumb loving robots. They're all deathtraps, but by god we'll make them a giant funeral pyre in the sky so bright they'll always remember! Rather than going "ZEON BANZAI" every time, it would probably be more germane to you know, be angry and terrified at the system that treated them like another component in the doomed and ultimately destructive machine of nationalism. A lot like this guy: http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/05/02/134597833/cosmonaut-crashed-into-earth-crying-in-rage Which is a great of example of a man placed into a terrible technological and bureaucratic deathtrap that was rushed into production to try and win a battle in a dubious conflict
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Oct 27, 2015 16:42
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TNG posted:Rather than going "ZEON BANZAI" every time, it would probably be more germane to you know, be angry and terrified at the system that treated them like another component in the doomed and ultimately destructive machine of nationalism. Yeah, this is one of the things that bugs me a lot about Zeon stuff - there are way too few Zeon characters portrayed as being reluctant about their orders or the war in general.
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Oct 27, 2015 16:51
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Yeah, this is one of the things that bugs me a lot about Zeon stuff - there are way too few Zeon characters portrayed as being reluctant about their orders or the war in general. In the background material there's some stuff about a Side 3 colony being violently suppressed because they were protesting the war, but you're right. In mainstream animation, the Zeon types kinda look sad and mournful at best as they go off to commit another atrocity. As an aside for anyone interested, here's a talk about North Korea's Juche ideology that goes into how Showa Fascism worked within the conquered territories before and during the war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw79POdZ0-g
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Oct 27, 2015 17:17
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Zeta gundam should have the subtitle: Disproportionate Retribution. Kamille just made that officer dance using loving vulcan guns. Music still isn't grabbing me the same as the mad trumpets from 0079, but I still like that soft saxophone. EDIT: Oh poo poo! Bright slap becomes punch Bright! Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 17:56
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TNG posted:In the background material there's some stuff about a Side 3 colony being violently suppressed because they were protesting the war, but you're right. In mainstream animation, the Zeon types kinda look sad and mournful at best as they go off to commit another atrocity. It's why I like stuff like The Plot to Assassinate Gihren. Realistically, the OYW should have a ton more defections and insubordinations.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:21
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TNG posted:In the background material there's some stuff about a Side 3 colony being violently suppressed because they were protesting the war, but you're right. In mainstream animation, the Zeon types kinda look sad and mournful at best as they go off to commit another atrocity. This is why I really like Episode Three of IBO. Crank's trying to do the best he can for the Tekkadan kids within his very narrow, aristocratic frame of reference, and they're just baffled and annoyed by the whole thing.
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Oct 27, 2015 19:39
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Realistically, the OYW should have a ton more defections and insubordinations. White Base stopped like 3 during their short run.
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Oct 27, 2015 19:43
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I'd read/watch a side-story about a squad of Zeon defectors. Then again, if I was writing a side-story, it would be about a bunch of Zanscare defectors, who realized that Queen Maria is just a puppet and Kagatie is a monster so they join with the League Militaire in their super-cool Zanscare MS.
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Oct 27, 2015 19:46
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Arcsquad12 posted:Zeta gundam should have the subtitle: Disproportionate Retribution. Kamille just made that officer dance using loving vulcan guns. Music still isn't grabbing me the same as the mad trumpets from 0079, but I still like that soft saxophone. I think I hated the Titans more than I ever hated Zeon. Stuff like beating up Bright just showed they were petty thugs. Zeon might have been evil but you can still respect evil if it's intelligent or determined enough. Nobody respects brainless brutes, however.
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Oct 27, 2015 19:57
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TNG posted:MS IGLOO is stupid for the same reason that Space Battleship Yamato's initial scenario is stupid, because rather than looking at why a military-industrial complex would allow these sorts of machines to be made in the first place it instead puts all the focus on the "bravery" of the dumb bastards they get to fly and sail the things. Never mind that this whole system of militarism is flawed at every level, these men are brave and die brave deaths for what they believe in! Sure our government is corrupt and probably evil, but aren't these men and women the bravest? It's more of a hagiography of Zeon's martyrs than anything else. The reason I never buy the argument that IGLOO is critical of Zeon is that it still revels in its dumb loving robots. They're all deathtraps, but by god we'll make them a giant funeral pyre in the sky so bright they'll always remember! Rather than going "ZEON BANZAI" every time, it would probably be more germane to you know, be angry and terrified at the system that treated them like another component in the doomed and ultimately destructive machine of nationalism. Thank you for putting into words what rubs me the wrong way about IGLOO.
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Oct 27, 2015 20:48
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NikkolasKing posted:I think I hated the Titans more than I ever hated Zeon. Stuff like beating up Bright just showed they were petty thugs. Zeon might have been evil but you can still respect evil if it's intelligent or determined enough. Nobody respects brainless brutes, however. The Titans felt like a bunch of high-school bullies and jocks, and most of their battles went "oh poo poo the AEUG is here, find a colony to hold hostage or try to gas". Considering how Emma and that one guy later in the series don't even know what they're actually doing and what the objectives of their superiors are, it makes you wonder just how many of the Titans mooks are dying thinking they're working for an actual cause.
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Oct 27, 2015 20:54
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NikkolasKing posted:I think I hated the Titans more than I ever hated Zeon. I hate to be that guy, but "Zeon fans" might exist not because they're secretly Nazi sympathizers or whatever, but because they're the default opposition to a rag-tag crew of snotty teens in space. Especially in the west, where you've got Star Wars and the like making an audience subculture of people who see space battleships and automatically look for whatever is The Dark Side parallel. Me, I just enjoy the arrival of the eventual super weapon, in whatever form it takes. Space laser, solar reflector array, whatever.
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Oct 27, 2015 21:11
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TNG posted:In the background material there's some stuff about a Side 3 colony being violently suppressed because they were protesting the war, but you're right. In mainstream animation, the Zeon types kinda look sad and mournful at best as they go off to commit another atrocity. i'm not sure what makes that unusual exactly? war crimes don't commit themselves, and generally they don't get committed at all if anyone who'd be involved is willing to do more than be sad about having done them Arcsquad12 posted:Music still isn't grabbing me the same as the mad trumpets from 0079, but I still like that soft saxophone. i will fight you Craptacular! posted:I hate to be that guy, but "Zeon fans" might exist not because they're secretly Nazi sympathizers or whatever, but because they're the default opposition to a rag-tag crew of snotty teens in space. Especially in the west, where you've got Star Wars and the like making an audience subculture of people who see space battleships and automatically look for whatever is The Dark Side parallel. i have some bad news for you
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Oct 27, 2015 21:25
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Ernie Muppari posted:i'm not sure what makes that unusual exactly? war crimes don't commit themselves, and generally they don't get committed at all if anyone who'd be involved is willing to do more than be sad about having done them Yep, that's kind of how evil is done in real life. But within the metaseries, it's kind of funny how everyone on Zeon's side just kinda goes along with it, except for Char in the original series but he has personal and not necessarily moral objections. Especially for a show that a lot of fans feel is more "balanced" in its approach to sides on a war. I don't feel that myself, and I certainly don't feel like the Federation are unequivocal good guys, but Zeon certainly is all too willing to do unspeakable things. But history has shown, populations have been willing to go along with their governments doing the worst things, our own for example. 0083 has an almost absurd version of this with Cima''s backstory. "What? You mean that we gassed all those people with poison? I thought we were going to just knock them out , remove them somehow, and then use the colony to commit a war crime on Earth! You tricked me Zeon high command!" I object to this on the grounds that I thought I was going to be committing a different war crime than the one I actually did!
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Oct 27, 2015 21:51
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Craptacular! posted:I binged on UC a long time ago, but from what I remember of all the various generals I hated Jamaican the most. Even the people under his command loathe him. There's a pretty huge overlap in between people who long for the good old days of the Empire and Zeon fans in japan.
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Oct 27, 2015 22:21
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TNG posted:"What? You mean that we gassed all those people with poison? I thought we were going to just knock them out , remove them somehow, and then use the colony to commit a war crime on Earth! You tricked me Zeon high command!" "Well, if you're gonna take that kind of attitude about it, we're just gonna pin the whole thing on you and your unit and wash our hands of it." 
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Oct 27, 2015 23:11
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That Cima backstory stuff is a lame thing, about canon junk
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Oct 27, 2015 23:20
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Her backstory isn't that stupid - it's not inconceivable for grunts who are told "carry this container here and plug it in to the air circulation system" to not understand what the brand new nerve gas is going to do (namely kill absolutely everyone inside the colony cylinder). Even if they did understand that it was nerve gas, it's not like the scope is easy to grasp.
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Oct 27, 2015 23:25
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My objection to it is mainly on the grounds that it's all background fluff from other materials that is not really represented in the show itself.
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Oct 27, 2015 23:27
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Her backstory isn't that stupid - it's not inconceivable for grunts who are told "carry this container here and plug it in to the air circulation system" to not understand what the brand new nerve gas is going to do (namely kill absolutely everyone inside the colony cylinder). Even if they did understand that it was nerve gas, it's not like the scope is easy to grasp. No, it wasn't a misunderstanding on the part of her unit; Zeon high command explicitly lied to them and told them they were using sleeping gas to knock out the civilians so they could relocate them and then use the empty colony for the colony drop. And then Cima's group carried out their orders and were horrified to discover, nope! Nerve gas! Gonna drop a colony full of dead bodies on the earth! 0083 is the worst.
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Oct 27, 2015 23:30
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W.T. Fits posted:"Well, if you're gonna take that kind of attitude about it, we're just gonna pin the whole thing on you and your unit and wash our hands of it." [flash forward to zeon survivors fleeing to axis] maharaja: hey martin! hey gerald! come on in. there's plenty of room. sorry, not you cima. cima: why not? [maharaja karn points to sign, "no cimas club"] cima: but you let in cima glumplich. cima g. [in an msm-04 space type custom]: [pops head out docking bay] hyuck hyuck! maharaja: it says no cima_s_. we're allowed to have one.
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Oct 27, 2015 23:33
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Shinjobi posted:Yeah, the only real "link" between Wing and X is that the character design is pretty damned similar. I imagine it's the same person, but I'm too lazy to check. Well there is also the fact that the Gundam designs in X share a good deal of similarity to those in Wing and may just be leftovers from Wing itself, same as how the Gundam designs in Wing are based primarily on rejected G Gundam designs that got cleaned up a good bit.
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Oct 28, 2015 01:14
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Srice posted:My objection to it is mainly on the grounds that it's all background fluff from other materials that is not really represented in the show itself. Agreed. It's interesting, but nothing is said about it in 0083 proper, making Cima a random space MILF that turns on Delaz for no apparent reason. quote:I still think whoever said earlier that Zeon is Imperial Japan was right. The One Year War is pretty much the Pacific Theater in Outer Space. If it wasn't obvious from the naval parallels, the last episode makes it perfectly clear when Zeon is forced into throwing untrained cadets into advanced mobile suits and watching them get slaughtered by the Federation's ace pilots. The OYW has the exact same flow that the Pacific Theatre did; small army does a powerful first strike on enemies and occupies some land, then starts floundering when they actually have to hold territory long-term. The victim of their strike gets their poo poo together and steamrolls them. Hell, Zeon even surrenders before the Federation lands on their home turf, like Imperial Japan did. The difference is that it takes the Federation a lot longer to get their poo poo together than the US did, relatively speaking.
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Oct 28, 2015 02:21
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I like Zeon because their mechs, uniforms, and flags are cooler looking. And I feel like that's more common in the west. The unironic love of Imperialism/nazism is definitely popular in Japan though and it's terrifying.
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Oct 28, 2015 03:03
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closeted republican posted:random space MILF Saving this for the next namechange thread.
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Oct 28, 2015 03:16
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The Hizack is one ugly motherfucker. The beautifully simplistic designs of the RGM-79 and the Zaku II do not mix well at all. Please be a common grunt suit so I can watch these trash bins die.
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Oct 28, 2015 03:24
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