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First sneak peek of the golem changes for Thaumcraft 5 was posted on youtube by Azanor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd28UOZLS0
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Nov 9, 2015 20:01
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today is a great day to sperg about minecraft mods, strap yourself in for another botania effortpost ---   ---Regarding flower rates in Botania, the fact that there are no numbers given to the user in-game makes it harder to conclusively say "X is better than Y." You need to, basically, build a setup to do both, and measure them separately. Or, you can be a sneaky fucker like me and read the source code. Doing this is basically cheating, but it's a good way to settle misconceptions. Since the actual mana numbers aren't really that meaningful, I'm going to also compare everything to dayblooms. A Daybloom is classified as a passive generating flower in the code. This distinction is different than the "withers after 3 days" distinction. Passive generating flowers generate mana continually as long as their preconditions are met. For the daybloom, assuming you aren't screwing yourself over by having them too close together, you generate 1 mana every 25 ticks. A tick is 1/20th of a second, so a Daybloom generates 0.8 mana a second. Hydroangeas generate 1 mana every other tick, or every tick if it's raining. This makes them 12.5 to 25 times better than dayblooms. Endoflames are also considered passive flowers, mechanically. If you keep them fed, they generate 3 mana every 2 ticks, making them worth 37.5 dayblooms. The type of fuel you give them doesn't matter; all it affects is how long it lasts before it wants another piece of fuel. The maximum amount of fuel an Endoflame can consume from a single item is equal to a Blaze Lamp (9 blaze rods crafted together,) which is a little more than twice the value of a block of coal, so if you're trying to feed your Endoflame Aeternalis Fuel, you're wasting a shitload of EMC. Kekimurus are not considered a passive flower. A Kekimurus eats a slice of cake every four seconds. If it does so, it generates 1800 mana. This makes them equal to 562.5 dayblooms, or 15 endoflames. Of note with these is that the maximum buffer inside a single kekimurus is 9001 (  ), or 5 bites, so it's important to be aggressive about venting the mana from the flower. I recommend using a dedicated elven mana spreader for each kekimurus you plant, and keep the distance between the spreader and its target pool as short as possible. A single cake (in 1.7.10) has six slices.Entropynniums are hard to measure, because there are a lot of different ways to automate them. The fastest, and least safe way I can think of is to use a dispenser to deploy the TNT. A TNT block takes four seconds to explode, so a hovering hourglass with a delay of five seconds seems prudent. (You wouldn't want four seconds; there's a possibility that the flower may fail to intercept the explosion, which would cause a chain reaction.) The entropynnium generates 6500 mana every time it absorbs an explosion, so if you can reliably craft one TNT every five seconds, you could generate 1,625 dayblooms worth of mana. However, three major caveats with this rate: 1) Entropynniums must be completely drained of mana before they can absorb another blast (and a single blast is enough to peg its internal buffer.) A gaia spreader shoots a mana burst with a capacity of 640 mana per shot, and adding a potency lens doubles that amount to 1280. I'm not sure how to calculate how quickly a spreader can fire at a mana pool, but you'd want to put the output mana pool directly above the spreader to maximize the number of bursts. You'd have to squeak out 6 bursts in 5 seconds to avoid losing a chunk of your base to a mana liquidity issue. B) Gunpowder costs 4000 mana to alchemize from flint in an alchemy catalyst equipped mana pool, making this method wholly unsuitable for mana generation. iii) A much safer mechanism for using an entropynnium involves shooting mana bursts through a mana detector, and wiring the lead from the mana detector into a pulse lengthener circuit. When the pulse lengthener outputs low, then arm a new TNT. This slows things down quite a bit. A Spectrolus generates 200 mana every time it eats the right color of wool. There's a couple of different ways to feed the flower, but the easiest to measure is to use a hopper and an open crate. A hopper transfers 2.5 items per second, so assuming no waste, that's 500 mana a second, or 625 dayblooms. A Gourmaryllis's throughput is wholly dependant on the foods you feed it. The formula for mana generated is code:You also need to be able to vent the flower's internal mana buffer completely between feedings, or you will lose mana. The maximum mana of the flower is 8000, so this puts a soft cap of 11 as the maximum food value you can feed it. Vanilla minecraft can't provide a food this filling (though 1.8's rabbit stew is 10, not that there is a 1.8 version of Botania.) However, mods provide. My favorite food to feed a gourmaryllis is Cooked Meat Ingots from MFR; they have a food value of 10. The most common thing to feed a Gourmaryllis is zombie flesh, apples, steak/cooked pork, and my early-game favorite, the baked potato. (An exoflame heating a vanilla furnace outputs baked potatoes at a nearly perfect pace, so they're great for early game before you have a lot of resources.) Mana figures are below. The number in parenthesis is the food value of the item. Food is fed to the gourmaryllis with a hovering hourglass operating a dropper. I'm rounding fractions up in the cooldown, and adding an extra second to cooldowns with no fractional part, just to be safe. * Zombie flesh, apples (4): 1024 mana every 3 seconds, or 426 dayblooms. * Baked potato: (5): 1600 mana every 3 seconds, or 666 dayblooms.  * Steak, cooked pork (8): 4096 mana every 5 seconds, or 819 dayblooms. * Cooked meat ingots (10): 6400 mana every 6 seconds, or 1066 dayblooms. --- ---Alright, I think I'm done for the day. Or week. Goddamn, that's a lot of brain dumping. Hopefully that provides some frame of reference for the effectiveness of various generating flowers.
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Nov 9, 2015 20:21
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Wait, do endoflames wither then? I know you've said they're passive mechanically but I thought it was just the "plonk down and forget" plants that had the Vision-o-scope applied.
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Nov 9, 2015 20:28
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:Wait, do endoflames wither then? I know you've said they're passive mechanically but I thought it was just the "plonk down and forget" plants that had the Vision-o-scope applied. They do not. That's just a terminology mismatch between what the code says and what the end-user documentation calls "passive." Given that end users aren't usually supposed to read the code (no reason to,) it's not a big deal. This poo poo happens all the time in software projects.
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Nov 9, 2015 20:30
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As far as the code is concerned, as I understand, "passive" just means it generates mana over time when conditions are met, and "active" refers to flowers that generate lumps of mana when conditions are met.
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Nov 9, 2015 21:44
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Glory of Arioch posted:Entropynniums are hard to measure, because there are a lot of different ways to automate them. The fastest, and least safe way I can think of is to use a dispenser to deploy the TNT. A TNT block takes four seconds to explode, so a hovering hourglass with a delay of five seconds seems prudent. (You wouldn't want four seconds; there's a possibility that the flower may fail to intercept the explosion, which would cause a chain reaction.) The entropynnium generates 6500 mana every time it absorbs an explosion, so if you can reliably craft one TNT every five seconds, you could generate 1,625 dayblooms worth of mana. However, three major caveats with this rate: You can just have more than one Entropinnyum present to handle TNT output. You only need to keep up with gunpowder production, so adjust the floating hourglass(or whatever way you dispense TNT) as needed, and have more than enough flowers and spreaders to handle the rate of explosions.
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Nov 9, 2015 21:46
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McFrugal posted:You can just have more than one Entropinnyum present to handle TNT output. You only need to keep up with gunpowder production, so adjust the floating hourglass(or whatever way you dispense TNT) as needed, and have more than enough flowers and spreaders to handle the rate of explosions. True -- you can do quite a bit with multiple generating flowers. The kekimurus and endoflame are especially good for this; you can generally just add extra flowers without modifying your delivery device at all. If I made two entropynniums, however, I'd probably just want to set off twice the TNT. 
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Nov 9, 2015 23:42
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I'm learning a lot, not least of all how much a significant difference this would make if I knew these numbers in-game. Seriously seeing stuff like the cake-eaters being so good for mana that's delivered almost instantly is really a game-changer.
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Nov 10, 2015 00:29
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You skipped the munchdew  Great post though. I have never automated some of the flowers and knowing the numbers makes me want to.
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Nov 10, 2015 00:37
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Thankyou for the botania effortposts, I feel like I sorta understand the corporea system now! I wish I understood vanilla redstone mechanics a bit better to actually try stuff out with it, it would certainly help with Regrowth. At the very least I can now put everything into a giant corporea network instead of having to look through 40+ unsorted chests for something, so thankyou! You said a corporea network can see everything in an AE2 network, but can AE2 see everything in a corporea network? That might be useful for just putting a GUI on it all. I ended up just using buildcraft for cake making - I shovelled everything into one 2x2 storage drawer, then used an emerald pipe to pipe all the ingredients into a crafty crate. Emerald pipes have 9 slots and output each item one at a time in order, so it's perfect for crafty crate use which accepts 9 items in order and then tries to craft. For filling the milk I have the crafty crate over the top of my cow - so it drops the cake and all the empty buckets there, and then a rannacarpus places the cake, drum of gathering fills the milk (automating a drum of gathering is just about my limil of redstone skill and even then I had to look it up), and a hopperhock puts the milk buckets back in the storage drawer. It's not quick at all, it takes probably 20 seconds to just make one cake, but I'm still throttled by my egg production so it does the job.
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Nov 10, 2015 00:53
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Yeah I had no idea that Corporea lets you have a pseudo AE system. Can you have a Corporea Network just dump everything from an input chest into other storage chests? Botania really is probably the most expansive mod in minecraft, considering it's got heavy elements of both standard tech stuff and standard magic stuff.
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Nov 10, 2015 01:23
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Taffer posted:You skipped the munchdew Whoops!  I did the mechanics for the ones I actually had experience with. I guess I can crank out one more effort post. Here's the rest, but they're more speculative on my part. The Munchdew eats leaves five times a second. Each leaf it eats outputs 160 mana, which makes it equal to 1,000 Dayblooms, if you can keep it feeding constantly. Without Applied Energistics and a truly massive MFR oak tree farm, however, this probably isn't happening. Letting the flower go on cooldown keeps it out of action for 80 seconds. The Thermalilly extends the Hydroangea in the code, switches the material from water to lava, doesn't have the infinite water check, and has a lengthy cooldown to endure after it finishes processing a block of lava. After eating a block of lava, the Thermalilly outputs 10,500 mana over 43.75 seconds, then has to rest for 420 seconds before it can consume more. This makes a Thermalilly equal to 22.6 Dayblooms. The Rosa Arcana converts a point of player experience into 24 mana. While you have experience left, this will occur 20 times a second, making it equal to 600 dayblooms. The Dandelifeon changes too goddamn much for me to get a good bead on it any more. As of update 230, the Dandelifeon consumes all cells when any of them end up in the 3x3 kill zone surrounding the flower itself. The flower then generates mana based on how many cells made it into the killzone, and their age. The best setup I've seen can drop six cells into the killzone. If you made a device that could dump six cells into the killzone at the last generation, 60, you'd generate 54,000 mana, but since the flower caps out at 50,000 mana max, you can actually stop at generation 56 or higher. Each generation takes half a second to iterate, so in the best case, perfect mechanism, you generate 50,000 mana over 28 seconds, which is equal to 1,785 dayblooms. In reality, however, any mechanism that automates the Dandelifeon will require a lengthy setup period (if only to distribute the needed cell blocks across the field using a Rannucarpus,) so your actual throughput will probably be a lot lower than that. I'm not even sure it's possible to do a precision strike into the killzone like that nowadays. The Narslimmus generates 820 mana if it kills a small slime, 1640 mana if it kills a medium slime, and 6560 mana if it kills a large slime. I am not sure if slimes killed in this manner generate smaller ancillary slimes. This is not particularly possible to compare to other flower generation rates (and I've never really used it.) The Rafflowsia passively-aggressively consumes dayblooms, nightshades, and hydroangeas for a chunk of mana. It prefers to eat a different type of flower each time, and tries to do so every 2 seconds, generating 2100 mana. This amount diminishes quickly if it is forced to eat the same flower multiple times in a row, dropping to 1050, then to 700, and so on. This would be equivalent to 1312.5 dayblooms, if you had a large stockpile of two or more kinds of these flowers. I've never used these before, but I'm going to speculate how they'd work. The only way to automatically generate these flowers is to use the Jaded Amaranthus to spawn mystical flowers. The actual spawn pattern is random, but for the purposes of spitballing this thing I'm going to assume it outputs one of each color of flower after cycling 16 times. A Jaded Amaranthus spawns a flower every 1.5 seconds, at the cost of 100 mana. To generate the 16 needed, you'd have to expend 1600 mana and 24 seconds. With this payload, you'd have enough materials for a single daybloom and nightshade. (Hydroangeas require three of the light blue petal, a petal which the Daybloom also needs. The Hydroangea also requires a Mana-infused petal, which is an additional complication. At best, you'd be able to make one of these every three sets of 16 operations.) Assuming crafting time is instantaneous, and the nightshade/daybloom are consumed immediately after planting, you'd gross 4200 mana over 24 seconds. However, this would cost you 1600 mana from the Jaded Amaranthus, so you net 2600 mana over 24 seconds, or the equivalent of 135 dayblooms. The actual rate would depend mostly on which flowers spawn from the Amaranthus. There's real risk of this flower netting negative mana, too. As it is with these sorts of things, it's usually better to leave the joke flowers alone.
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Nov 10, 2015 01:44
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Magres posted:Can you have a Corporea Network just dump everything from an input chest into other storage chests? You cannot, not with Corporea. You'd need to use a minecart or Luminizers to move the items, and then drop them on the ground at a central dumping area, where banks of chests and hopperhocks would suck up the items into chests.
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Nov 10, 2015 01:47
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sammage posted:You said a corporea network can see everything in an AE2 network, but can AE2 see everything in a corporea network? That might be useful for just putting a GUI on it all. No, unfortunately it's only one-way. You'd have to put storage buses on all the chests and doodads in your network to do this.
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Nov 10, 2015 01:48
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Also looking at these numbers one of the biggest things that jumps out at me is how incredibly weak the thermalily is. I always thought it was a big step up from the endoflame but it's not even close.
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Nov 10, 2015 03:27
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It used to be way better but got nerfed into the ground because Blood Magic makes it super easy to generate lava from nothing, from what I understand.
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Nov 10, 2015 03:35
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Magres posted:It used to be way better but got nerfed into the ground because Blood Magic makes it super easy to generate lava from nothing, from what I understand. I don't think there was enough reason to nerf it like that without providing a config to adjust mana generation values.
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Nov 10, 2015 03:38
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Botania has no native methods to suck up liquids arbitrarily, so automating the thermalilly is very difficult without other mods. However, things like the buildcraft floodgate and the MFR fountain (or, hell, even Magic Crop's essence of fire, some dispensers, and Corporea) make it trivial. There's not really much middle ground.
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Nov 10, 2015 03:50
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Glory of Arioch posted:The Rafflowsia passively-aggressively consumes dayblooms, nightshades, and hydroangeas for a chunk of mana. It prefers to eat a different type of flower each time, and tries to do so every 2 seconds, generating 2100 mana. This amount diminishes quickly if it is forced to eat the same flower multiple times in a row, dropping to 1050, then to 700, and so on. This would be equivalent to 1312.5 dayblooms, if you had a large stockpile of two or more kinds of these flowers. You forgot about Floral Fertilizer. If you automate crafting that, you can use excess flowers from the Jaded Amaranthus to spawn more, random flowers, so as long as you have infinite bonemeal you can shorten that 24 seconds quite a lot. 4 petals per daybloom/nightshade means you need four flower spawns(two each) in the end, not 16, which means you get 4200 mana every 6 seconds, minus 400. So a profit of 3800 over 6 seconds, or the equivalent of 791.6 dayblooms. Which is much better. The logistical requirements are absurd, however, so I really do not recommend doing that.
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Nov 10, 2015 07:23
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Glory of Arioch posted:
one of the problems with this flower is that most packs at the moment not only have botania but also hunger overhaul so food is scarce and usually needed.
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Nov 10, 2015 07:44
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TheresaJayne posted:one of the problems with this flower is that most packs at the moment not only have botania but also hunger overhaul so food is scarce and usually needed. Until you get to the point where you're autocrafting bacon cheeseburgers out of soy for fun and can afford to hurl stacks of them at the gourmaryllis.
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Nov 10, 2015 08:56
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In Regrowth, it's extremely easy to get a huge 10/10/10 field of wheat, get a ton of stacks of wheat in seconds by swiping with a scythe a few times, and turn each wheat into 1 bread by turning it into flour and throwing it in a furnace. In modpacks where you need 3 wheat to make bread you might be better off using potatoes and baked potatoes instead. So what I did to get far more mana than I ever ended up using, having plenty for tablets and a decent amount of terrasteel, was to use the B-Space Tuning Fork and the b-space upgrade from JABBA to link a barrel of flour next to my wheat field with a barrel near my botania setup (you could probably do this with corporea sparks too maybe?) which makes them both contain the same inventory at all times, like a 1 slot ender chest. Then, I had a hopper drop all the flour into a double chest, then had two hoppers on the bottom of the double chest going into two furnaces powered by an exoflame (which uses a completely trivial amount of mana), and two hoppers on the bottom of the furnaces into open crates over gourmaryllis flowers. I used hourglasses and a repeater to make all the hoppers except the one directly below the barrel only work on a pulse every 4 seconds so the gourmaryllis couldn't overeat, and because hoppers below double chests won't evenly split items between themselves unless there's more than 1 item in the chest at a time, and the delay gave the double chest time to fill (which is really stupid and terrible but it's vanilla minecraft hopper coding so what can you do). It sounds a little complicated but it was dirt cheap other than the b-space barrels which are completely optional and was a pretty tiny construction, and I filled up like 8 mana pools in no time with a constant stream of bread. I couldn't really figure out a way to automate farming in Regrowth, but if you could manage that it would have been even more efficient - i got massive shittons of mana just making a few stacks of flour whenever i could be bothered to quickly scythe my wheat fields and dropping em in a barrel. You could probably also automate this more efficiently but that's what I slapped together with my incomplete knowledge of redstone poo poo and botania toys, and it was a million times better than endoflames without being super obnoxious like every other generator flower. Doing this without agricraft 10/10/10 crops would be hell, though, unless you had some easier way to mass produce incredible amounts of wheat/potatoes.
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Nov 10, 2015 11:27
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I will admit, knowing just how much better the other generator flowers are compared to Endoflames makes me want to at least try to use some of them. Depending on what other mods I have available it might not even be that tiresome to do so. Gourmaryllis sounds like the best return on my investment actually.
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Nov 10, 2015 11:45
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McFrugal posted:You forgot about Floral Fertilizer. If you automate crafting that, you can use excess flowers from the Jaded Amaranthus to spawn more, random flowers, so as long as you have infinite bonemeal you can shorten that 24 seconds quite a lot. 4 petals per daybloom/nightshade means you need four flower spawns(two each) in the end, not 16, which means you get 4200 mana every 6 seconds, minus 400. So a profit of 3800 over 6 seconds, or the equivalent of 791.6 dayblooms. Which is much better. Yeah, I left that out because applying Floral Fertilizer to the ground automatically is pretty hard without external mods. You can't do it at all with just Botania and vanilla redstone.
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Nov 10, 2015 12:16
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Wolpertinger posted:In Regrowth, it's extremely easy to get a huge 10/10/10 field of wheat, get a ton of stacks of wheat in seconds by swiping with a scythe a few times, and turn each wheat into 1 bread by turning it into flour and throwing it in a furnace. In modpacks where you need 3 wheat to make bread you might be better off using potatoes and baked potatoes instead. Yeah, I was using bread for a while, too, but the latest version of Regrowth changes the recipe for making wheat flour to need the mortar and pestle. This wouldn't be so bad, except the part where it's bugged and it dupes the mortar and pestle every time you craft the recipe. Cue me running around with a fish turd of 64 mortar and pestle items dragging along behind me on the wings of my magnet ring
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Nov 10, 2015 12:21
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If I recall, you can still do it with barley, unless they bugged that too.
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Nov 10, 2015 13:58
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Corporea networks are cool Being able to use this like a giant AE system is cool
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Nov 10, 2015 14:13
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Quick check: most of these Botania builds use tons of hoppers. Are they still murder on servers or is that old knowledge?
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Nov 10, 2015 15:19
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Heffer posted:Quick check: most of these Botania builds use tons of hoppers. Are they still murder on servers or is that old knowledge? Less so with cauldron/fastcraft but yeah they're still poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2015 15:24
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Mutamu posted:Corporea networks are cool ... Elaborate. Because that looks cool as gently caress. A small scale demonstration, please? 
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Nov 10, 2015 15:35
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Thyrork posted:... Elaborate. Because that looks cool as gently caress. A small scale demonstration, please? basically storage drawers + corporea works really well
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Nov 10, 2015 15:44
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In the central column there's a drawer controller with a corporea spark on top of it, an ender chest feeds into the controller, that hopper in the platform also feeds into the chest. The crystal floating above the hopper is a corporea index, which lets me request items from the entire drawer network by typing their name into the chat, so long as I'm stood on that platform. (The entire inventory of a drawer network is exposed through the controller, the same works for AE which is hilariously powerful for that, because it only uses 1 channel)
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Nov 10, 2015 16:35
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Thyrork posted:... Elaborate. Because that looks cool as gently caress. A small scale demonstration, please?
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Nov 10, 2015 16:45
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Wolpertinger posted:I couldn't really figure out a way to automate farming in Regrowth, but if you could manage that it would have been even more efficient All this sounds cool, but looking regrowth up it has both thaumcraft and witchery. Farming is like the easiest thing to get a golem team to do, I've done it and I've somehow never been able to get a decanting/alchemy golem to work. Witchery also has ways to make potions that harvest stuff.
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Nov 10, 2015 21:57
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Acne Rain posted:All this sounds cool, but looking regrowth up it has both thaumcraft and witchery. Farming is like the easiest thing to get a golem team to do, I've done it and I've somehow never been able to get a decanting/alchemy golem to work. Witchery also has ways to make potions that harvest stuff. The main problem with this is that Thaumcraft is gated until pretty deep into the pack. * In order to progress with any kind of research, you need to create Victus in the research table. You can't make a research table without Greatwood. * Greatwoods don't spawn in the world, but the saplings can be crafted in a runic altar. This recipe requires one each of every Witchery sapling, a Treefyd seed, and strong essence. * Treefyd seeds require a Tear of the Goddess fume, which requires a distillery (and lapis.) * Distilleries require Infused Stones from Witchery. * Infused Stones require Botania's Dragonstones, which requires hucking a mana diamond into an Alfheim portal. * Diamonds require the third (of four) tier of Magic Crops infusion stone and the completion of an intermediate quest in order to generate Diamond Seeds. I might be missing some intermediate steps here, but suffice it to say that it takes a lot of work to get to this point. On the other hand, if you have significant tech infrastructure in Regrowth, you can use Forestry's multifarms. Previously, this was gated behind bees, but in the last Regrowth update, a recipe was added to let you craft forestry fertilizer with saltpeter! Saltpeter can be crafted from gunpowder in one of the Mekanism machines, and gunpowder can be farmed from Essence of the Creeper. Gwyneth Palpate fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 10, 2015 |
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Nov 10, 2015 22:38
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regroooooooowth
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Nov 10, 2015 23:18
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Acne Rain posted:All this sounds cool, but looking regrowth up it has both thaumcraft and witchery. Farming is like the easiest thing to get a golem team to do, I've done it and I've somehow never been able to get a decanting/alchemy golem to work. Witchery also has ways to make potions that harvest stuff. It is pretty deep into the pack like glory said, but funnily enough I did have a silverwood and greatwood sapling, I just never got around to setting up anything more than a crucible (I started playing something else and haven't gone back to my regrowth world in a while). The main reason I didn't push for golems is because at the time the most recent version of Regrowth had a bugged version of agricraft that broke compatibility with golems so they'd destroy the crops every time they harvested and be unable to replant them. Apparently the only alternatives were a Forestry autofarm which requires apatite which doesn't even spawn in regrowth so you'd need to do stupid amounts of orechard grinding to get it, or Buildcraft Robotics which are actually really cool looking but also immensely expensive and complicated and endgame.
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Nov 10, 2015 23:31
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Forestry Multifarms might be the way to go, now that they're not gated behind motherfucking bees. Does Regrowth at least have Gendustry? I've always heard Gendustry makes Forestry tolerable
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Nov 11, 2015 00:06
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Magres posted:Forestry Multifarms might be the way to go, now that they're not gated behind motherfucking bees. It has Genetics, which looks like it does a similar thing.
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Nov 11, 2015 00:12
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Enzer posted:First sneak peek of the golem changes for Thaumcraft 5 was posted on youtube by Azanor. Neat. Seems like it'll be a lot less micromanage-y than the current system, for good or bad. To clarify, unless the task-AI code is REALLY good, I hope Azanor includes the ability to exert some fine control over the system. I'm thinking of that old game Towns, a town-building game which also used a purely priority-based task system, where I ended up in a situation where very important tasks that needed to be performed constantly but only required two or three villagers to fulfill (planting, harvesting, cooking) consumed every single one of my villagers at the neglect of everything else.
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Nov 11, 2015 00:22
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