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Loiosh posted:I don't know where you're getting this insurance company thing from. They're not too concerned about people doing this to give away a ship or two. This is a concern for someone who loses 5 to 10 ships. But doesn't giving away "a ship or two" equate to getting the most cash-expensive ships in the game for free? Seems like a big deal, even if it's just a ship or two
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Nov 19, 2015 17:44
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Loiosh posted:I don't know where you're getting this insurance company thing from. They're not too concerned about people doing this to give away a ship or two. This is a concern for someone who loses 5 to 10 ships. In theory anyway. Absolutely none of this is currently present in the game, so we can chalk it up with the farming simulator in the bubbles on that capital ship.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:44
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Actually, I should note that a group I was involved with back when SC was in the early stages planned to 'acquire' portions of their fleet this way, by hijacking or insurance fraud. That way they could operate a deniable pirate division/wing that would handle Org espionage kind of activities. Being the upstanding person that I am, I of course did not support this idea, tsktsk.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:45
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Madcosby posted:hmm an insurance agency sounds like it'll be exploited/abused endlessly by all ends. Oh its been clear for a while that croberts is making up the game on the spot when he is placed in front of a camera. I would not be surprised if CIG's design doc is nothing more the notes taken from every video he is in. With  being the key recorded, it would actually gel with his "qualifications" for working at CIG.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:45
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Loiosh posted:I don't know where you're getting this insurance company thing from. They're not too concerned about people doing this to give away a ship or two. This is a concern for someone who loses 5 to 10 ships. I vaguely recall talks about actual people having as a job doing Star Citizen insurance claims to check for fraud, etc. One of those pitches that Chris explained while waving his hands about a lot and not really having any idea how anything would be implemented.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:47
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Madcosby posted:But doesn't giving away "a ship or two" equate to getting the most cash-expensive ships in the game for free? The larger ships require actual crews to run them. That kind of activity will be self-limited. Remember that the final game is as TTerrible points out, entirely not done (who knows how far along its even started given that the majority of their effort is focused on SQ42 right now). So there's plenty of time for these kind of details to be sorted out. This happens all the time in MMOs. Who here remembers all the issues with Vanguard when it launched?
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Nov 19, 2015 17:47
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Madcosby posted:But doesn't giving away "a ship or two" equate to getting the most cash-expensive ships in the game for free? Supposedly stolen ships don't get replaced, so while you have a free ship for a while, its just a matter of time before you lose it. I think of it like killing a dude in an FPS and taking his uber-weapon he bought with game credits. It might be "free" to you, but you're going to get killed and lose the weapon sooner or later. *Of course this is all moot because doing anything like this in the PU will is at minimum 2 years away, if the game does not fold before then*
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Nov 19, 2015 17:49
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Conspiratiorist posted:I vaguely recall talks about actual people having as a job doing Star Citizen insurance claims to check for fraud, etc. I'll admit, that would be the kind of gameplay I would enjoy when I was not in the mood to do commercial transport. I always like doing logistics assistance. If they had like, ship VIN tracking and integrated that into the scanning/reclaiming/scavenging gameplay they have planned.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:49
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Bootcha posted:Consider this my public statement.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:49
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Loiosh posted:The larger ships require actual crews to run them. That kind of activity will be self-limited. Remember that the final game is as TTerrible points out, entirely not done (who knows how far along its even started given that the majority of their effort is focused on SQ42 right now). So there's plenty of time for these kind of details to be sorted out. I buy an entry package to the game. You have a one man ship worth more than my entry package and insurance. This fraud plan I'm suggesting has no bearing on whether or not the ship is the most expensive or crew-based. it's just entirely exploitable. While thieving and insurance are part of the game, there is no way this won't be exploited. One of them will have to go.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:51
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Warcabbit posted:The sad, sad thing is that I'm a croberts for a much smaller and, eventually, just as huge in scope a project as this. The difference is that you're aware of your limitations, and more importantly are aware of the scope of your game. City of Titans is well defined. People know what to expect, you know what to have people do, you've built it out from a solid foundation, and you have a plan. Your limited funds enforce a motivation to stay tight and efficient, and not waste funds or resources on superfluous things or remakes. Obviously there are some inefficiencies in development but you don't consider having multiple mocap studios to be a good utilization of your funds. Madcosby posted:Will the insurance agency track chat logs and out-of-game conversations? Supposedly abuse will be investigated by a GM. The expectation is that it will be a relatively rare occurrence at that there will be identifiable behavior (similar to a gold farmer). Obviously they won't track anything out of game but if a player develops a habit of getting their destroyer stolen then a GM would investigate. One of the other balancing mechanisms is a time lock on getting a new ship. Supposedly they won't be conjured out of thin air, but instead will require a ship to be physically manufactured or delivered. If you lose a basic ship like an Aurora or a Cutlass your new one will be delivered immediately since they mass manufacture them. OTOH if you lose a Javelin and they only make one a week (or whatever) then it could be months before your $2500 monument to idiocy is returned. And in the case of the Javelin it will be delivered without any guns or other components unless you insured them separately. Of course how to balance everything when your guns take two weeks to manufacture but your ship takes two minutes is likely something they haven't figured out. It can also supposedly be susceptible to market influences. If there's a shortage on space lube and your Javelin needs two metric tons in order to be fabricated then production might slow down until the economy realigns itself. poo poo like this is why SC was so enticing to me. There were going to be a seemingly infinite number of ways to gently caress with people.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:56
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happy third anniversary everyone.  the text got way to pixelated 
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Nov 19, 2015 17:56
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Madcosby posted:I buy an entry package to the game. You have a one man ship worth more than my entry package and insurance. This fraud plan I'm suggesting has no bearing on whether or not the ship is the most expensive or crew-based. it's just entirely exploitable. I do not know why you assume that when other games have allowed that kind of gameplay and found it quite enjoyable. I don't know if that applies to EVE, but there's an entire genre of multiplayer games with persistent asset tracking (and even microtransations, WarZ!) based on stealing poo poo from other players and murderating them. DayZ, Ark, WarZ, just as examples. You only need to stamp out exploitation if it has an impact on the wider game. Every MMO has exploitation issues, hell, how many people here had their WoW account sharded at one point? I know I did back in basic WoW. Exploits will happen. What matters is seeing how the company responds. Even those with the best laid plans will have to adopt. As my Age of Conan and Vanguard examples point out earlier, MMOs tend to need long alphas and betas to get issues like that sorted out. CIG has quite a lot of time to work on this (assuming they don't fail sometime next year).
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Nov 19, 2015 17:56
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Has anyone made a drugs joke yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGRsEF953n0
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Nov 19, 2015 17:57
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Madcosby posted:I buy an entry package to the game. You have a one man ship worth more than my entry package and insurance. This fraud plan I'm suggesting has no bearing on whether or not the ship is the most expensive or crew-based. it's just entirely exploitable. This isn't a new idea. CIG's entire plan relies on A- automatically detecting blatant fraud and preventing stolen ships being flipped for credits. B- Ship turnover is so high a stolen ship is meaningless. Of course we have no idea how A or B will work, and CIG will probably gently caress it up.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:58
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There is no plan. Only Roberts.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:00
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Loiosh posted:I do not know why you assume that when other games have allowed that kind of gameplay and found it quite enjoyable. I don't know if that applies to EVE, but there's an entire genre of multiplayer games with persistent asset tracking (and even microtransations, WarZ!) based on stealing poo poo from other players and murderating them. DayZ, Ark, WarZ, just as examples. I just assume it's a big deal since we're talking about thousands of dollars spent on these things
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Nov 19, 2015 18:02
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Loiosh posted:I do not know why you assume that when other games have allowed that kind of gameplay and found it quite enjoyable. I don't know if that applies to EVE, but there's an entire genre of multiplayer games with persistent asset tracking (and even microtransations, WarZ!) based on stealing poo poo from other players and murderating them. DayZ, Ark, WarZ, just as examples. EVE has persistent asset tracking as well. The difference is that (to my knowledge) none of those games (including EVE) have an insurance mechanism that returns the asset to the player. In EVE if you lose something and it's insured you get a paltry sum of ISK that's barely worth the effort. Personally I don't see how CIG's approach is remotely viable. If new ships aren't delivered in a timely manner then people will complain about how the insurance mechanic is worthless because it takes X hours/days/weeks/whatever to play again. If new ships are delivered at a pace that exceeds the balance of the economy then you have excessive inflation. Even ignoring the exploitation issues I struggle to see how this won't be a systemic problem.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:03
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Loiosh posted:I don't know where you're getting this insurance company thing from. They're not too concerned about people doing this to give away a ship or two. This is a concern for someone who loses 5 to 10 ships. If you need to replace the avonics and computer then you cannot hijack ships, unless you're literally just pulling them inside some other ship and buggering off. If that's the case then the whole thing is loving stupid and the EVA/boarding mechanic is entirely pointless. If you can steal ships and replace some parts for some fraction of the cost of the whole ship then there's going to be some incredibly careless owners of the top end ships getting them hijacked over and over again by 'accident'. Sure they're stolen but who cares if you're a pirate anyway.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:03
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Peter I really hope you are going to be shitposting all throughout this...
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Nov 19, 2015 18:05
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:The difference is that you're aware of your limitations, and more importantly are aware of the scope of your game. City of Titans is well defined. People know what to expect, you know what to have people do, you've built it out from a solid foundation, and you have a plan. Your limited funds enforce a motivation to stay tight and efficient, and not waste funds or resources on superfluous things or remakes. Obviously there are some inefficiencies in development but you don't consider having multiple mocap studios to be a good utilization of your funds. Thanks, Beer. That means a lot. Amusingly, I have access to three mocap studios. Er. 'studios'. A guy in Seattle with two Kinects, a guy in Italy with two mocap suits and a studio somewhere around, and this place in Texas that I have an acting troupe nearby. I've not used 'em yet - no reason to. But it's good to know where you can get things done.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:05
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:EVE has persistent asset tracking as well. The difference is that (to my knowledge) none of those games (including EVE) have an insurance mechanism that returns the asset to the player. In EVE if you lose something and it's insured you get a paltry sum of ISK that's barely worth the effort. Personally I don't see how CIG's approach is remotely viable. If new ships aren't delivered in a timely manner then people will complain about how the insurance mechanic is worthless because it takes X hours/days/weeks/whatever to play again. If new ships are delivered at a pace that exceeds the balance of the economy then you have excessive inflation. Even ignoring the exploitation issues I struggle to see how this won't be a systemic problem. Have you not learned that CIG has intention of making a functioning economy that players have any influence on?
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Nov 19, 2015 18:06
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G0RF posted:Peter I really hope you are going to be shitposting all throughout this... ha ha ha ha. Good one.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:07
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Madcosby posted:There is no plan. Only Roberts. I wonder when people say something like this if they're expecting an MMO to have a hard rule book designed from day 1. It's not very common with MMOs, especially those trying to be innovative. Blizzard had no idea what WoW would be when they started design. They knew they liked EQ (most of the original members were hard-core EQ raiders), and wanted to make something like it, but better. They didn't even have a quest tracker in their original design. It was added in the F&F Alpha when family members complained. Their original design around talents was completely changed, multiple times. Originally Talents would be small improvements to somewhat tweak your abilities (+5% damage or increase the rate of point generation for rogues). Originally each class would have a unique class quest and epic weapon (like cleric sticks for EQ). All of these things changed. Heck, the raids and instances were redesigned in the middle of production. After the success of Scarlet Monastery (instance) they decided they should redesign their raids to be winged, just like SM was (thus, the original Naxx). Molten Core was too far along to really make use of that design. There's an entire history of MMOs that got scrapped or changed in development because their original ideas didn't quite work out and they had to adopt to changes.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:07
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G0RF posted:Peter I really hope you are going to be shitposting all throughout this...
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Nov 19, 2015 18:07
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G0RF posted:Peter I really hope you are going to be shitposting all throughout this...
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Nov 19, 2015 18:09
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Loiosh posted:I wonder when people say something like this if they're expecting an MMO to have a hard rule book designed from day 1. It's not very common with MMOs, especially those trying to be innovative. That would have been a good excuse a decade ago when WoW and EVE were young, but those games exist now. SC is not trying to innovate it's trying to create a persistent on-line universe which is cross between Elite : Dangerous and EVE, that's not really innovation. The only things they're suggesting which are kind new is hijacking ships which is a fundamentally flawed mechanic in a game where ship replacement insurance exists and in a world where Goons exist.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:12
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:EVE has persistent asset tracking as well. The difference is that (to my knowledge) none of those games (including EVE) have an insurance mechanism that returns the asset to the player. In EVE if you lose something and it's insured you get a paltry sum of ISK that's barely worth the effort. Personally I don't see how CIG's approach is remotely viable. If new ships aren't delivered in a timely manner then people will complain about how the insurance mechanic is worthless because it takes X hours/days/weeks/whatever to play again. If new ships are delivered at a pace that exceeds the balance of the economy then you have excessive inflation. Even ignoring the exploitation issues I struggle to see how this won't be a systemic problem. I really don't know about EVE, I don't follow it. I'm kinda thinking that players will complain either way, though there are a couple of systems designed to help with this, especially waiting on the larger ships. #1 There's a rental system (REC) which allows players to rent and fly NPC-owned ships or do contract jobs on ships they do not own. #2 The material and build system for the economy will offer jobs to players. If you have a Javelin that you're waiting on being built, you can take guild / merchant contract missions and help those delivers to decrease your build time. #3 Dispatch missions (bounties and rewards for recovering stolen ships and property) There's a lot of ways of tackling this kind of issue so players feel like they still have something to contribute above the three examples above that I directly know of. The more systemic your gameplay and design, the more ways you can make use of that interaction. Also, the more ways it can go wrong, of course, and it takes testing to find those cases and adjust for them.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:12
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SC twitch chat is full of happy citizens anticipating the livestream and fantasizing about their jpegs. Goons please ruin their simple joys
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Nov 19, 2015 18:13
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQQPzHerrPE Mark Hamill seems happy. Warcabbit posted:Thanks, Beer. That means a lot. Buy them all out and you can be the next CRoberts. Eldragon posted:Have you not learned that CIG has intention of making a functioning economy that players have any influence on? Of course. Their approach of having players influence a system level economy while ensuring the universe was big enough to prevent things from getting out of hand seemed really cool. But functioning economy and delivering ships in a timely manner don't seem to relate.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:14
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Loiosh posted:I wonder when people say something like this if they're expecting an MMO to have a hard rule book designed from day 1. It's not very common with MMOs, especially those trying to be innovative. I agree MMO's change. But the problem is they're already selling concepts without a solid design. It's not like an MMO beta where people are playing equal characters. This game has a buy-in power system. When you sell insurance on day - 1, you should have a complete understanding of how it'll be implemented on day 0. Scraping insurance and starting over is actually a good plan. Now try it when people have spent 1000's of dollars on it
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Nov 19, 2015 18:15
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Loiosh posted:I wonder when people say something like this if they're expecting an MMO to have a hard rule book designed from day 1. It's not very common with MMOs, especially those trying to be innovative. SC is being innovative? There's a wealth of existing experience to draw from. All SC has are gimmicks. And while I wouldn't expect every mechanic to be planned to be carved into stone tablets from the get go, at the very least I'd expect design documents on them (that can be feasible implemented) before they're announced.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:15
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Loiosh posted:I wonder when people say something like this if they're expecting an MMO to have a hard rule book designed from day 1. It's not very common with MMOs, especially those trying to be innovative. Bullshit. Blizzard had a plan, a very well detailed one that laid out the long term plan for where the game was going. They did not just start writing code and say "oh, make it like EQ but with warcraft crap". Blizzard adopted and changed the design as development progressed, but these were refinements; and is normal in software development. You are confusing "lack of a plan" with making minor adjustments. Everything coming out of CIG in the last year screams poor project management from the top down.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:16
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 https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/3tdo3n/the_investor_is_bugging_out_this_is_popcornworthy/
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Nov 19, 2015 18:16
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Twitch thinks 2.0 is coming out today or within a week at most. Not even the fabled two weeks.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:17
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I don't understand this whole cast-info blitz. I just wanted a multiplayer space game, I was never in it for the cast, but of course John Rhys-Davies and Mark Hamill were going to be in it, they've been in everything CR's ever done. People getting all worked up over them is just weird to me. Well, that and the fact that it feels like a shell game to divert people's attention away from the fact that they're holding another sale without having released anything.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:17
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It strikes me that there's two kinds of ship pirating. Cheap and expensive. I suspect you'll be able to fraud cheap ones, while expensive ones will be examined a bit more carefully. Capital ships, being a subset of expensive, should be pretty easy to discover fraud on - was it boarded and captured with much death, or did someone land it, exit the thing and leave it unlocked, and someone else wandered in almost as if they were waiting?
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Nov 19, 2015 18:18
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Sarsapariller posted:I don't understand this whole cast-info blitz. I just wanted a multiplayer space game, I was never in it for the cast, but of course John Rhys-Davies and Mark Hamill were going to be in it, they've been in everything CR's ever done. People getting all worked up over them is just weird to me. Well, that and the fact that it feels like a shell game to divert people's attention away from the fact that they're holding another sale without having released anything.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:18
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Of course. Their approach of having players influence a system level economy while ensuring the universe was big enough to prevent things from getting out of hand seemed really cool. But functioning economy and delivering ships in a timely manner don't seem to relate. Honestly I can't wait for the first iteration of ship replacements being delayed. Either replacement times are long, and using an Aurora to suicide against a more expensive long replacement time ship is going to make the carebears freak out to no end. OR replacement times are short and the carebears freak out that ships are too disposable. I don't see much middle ground here.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:18
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Aramoro posted:That would have been a good excuse a decade ago when WoW and EVE were young, but those games exist now. SC is not trying to innovate it's trying to create a persistent on-line universe which is cross between Elite : Dangerous and EVE, that's not really innovation. The only things they're suggesting which are kind new is hijacking ships which is a fundamentally flawed mechanic in a game where ship replacement insurance exists and in a world where Goons exist. Snarky answer: I guess it's good most goons are looking to get out of SC then  But honest answer: If there was no innovation than why is Derek saying SC is impossible? You'd think those two would be conflicting. A game that is based on an existing gameplay would not be impossible to build, I mean, E:D and EVE are already out, right? (The snarky answer here is hey, Chris sucks at game dev he couldn't even make an E:D, which I guess if you think that's the case, I don't have much useful input). There's a lot that has not been tried before, above the basic systemic design of the ships and how complexly stimulated they are, the intent of an open world with a large simulated economy like this is something I'm not aware of in other games. EVE has the closest setup, which is entirely player driven and based on, am I correct on this Beer, a tiered build? Tier 1 assets - mining ore) Tier 2 - Refining Tier 3 - Component building SC is looking to do something similar, but to make the economy driven mostly by simulation instead of player intervention. And on top of that do the complex stuff like EVAs and more involve ship simulation with actual built interiors with physically modeled components that can be replaced, damaged, and stolen. But I mean, if you think that all is already done and out there, I don't even know what to think about that beyond disagreeing.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:19
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