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mycot posted:Deer Toss is one of my favorite animations in the game. Is it? 
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Dec 23, 2015 05:20
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Xanderkish posted:Tryhard stuff like that doesn't really faze me, mainly because I know they're trying to get a rise out of me through a bunch of really cheap tactics so it ends up less upsetting and more "Aw, how cute." It's in a much more put-together story like this that those things bother me. It's a tonal shift and it fridges Buddy and it replaces the surreal gallows-humor ultraviolence with something a lot more intimate and disturbing and it's ultimately just lazy and stupid and pointlessly shocking. One of the potential epilogues of Joyful actually gives this scene context beyond 'ah a gross thing happened'. I don't know if VoD intends to do Joyful, though.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:30
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Heatwizard posted:One of the potential epilogues of Joyful actually gives this scene context beyond 'ah a gross thing happened'. I don't know if VoD intends to do Joyful, though. I am pretty sure he's said he is. Xanderkish posted:Tryhard stuff like that doesn't really faze me, mainly because I know they're trying to get a rise out of me through a bunch of really cheap tactics so it ends up less upsetting and more "Aw, how cute." It's in a much more put-together story like this that those things bother me. It's a tonal shift and it fridges Buddy and it replaces the surreal gallows-humor ultraviolence with something a lot more intimate and disturbing and it's ultimately just lazy and stupid and pointlessly shocking. I wouldn't call it "tryhard" you don't just make a game with themes like this for shits and giggles, even with Lisa the first- Like the only reason you'd make a game like that without some kind of message or personal commentary is if you're making a really try hard college psych final project. Not to mention I'm pretty sure a huge point of Painful is tonal whiplash considering we go from implied molestation, to PRO WRESTLING, to mutilation.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:42
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Xanderkish posted:Goddammit. Of course we'll have the villain threaten to mutilate a young girl's nipple, and then actually mutilate said nipple. Wouldn't be serious and mature without it! On one hand, it's a pretty interesting choice. There's no mechanical downsides to sacrificing Buddy's nipple; in fact, it's actually a unique accessory and almost beneficial, while losing three party members can be devastating. It's only you, the player, who can feel that this is a line too far. On the other hand, I absolutely lined up three idiots who trusted me to get horribly murdered because gently caress letting some rear end in a top hat indulge in being a creeper.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:44
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Brad's willing to sacrifice anything beyond all reason for Buddy's safety, I can't believe he wouldn't offer up three men's lives for a hair on her head.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:52
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TCat posted:I am pretty sure he's said he is. Lisa the First is absolutely tryhard garbo If you really don't think someone would make a game like that just 'cause, you haven't hung around many artist types.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:05
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Seems to me it's perfectly in line with the crazy Buzzo has fallen prey to. Lazy would be just having Buzzo cut off Buddy's arm, frankly, and not have nearly the same kind of weight. Thus far he's always escalated the hurt he's put on Brad (Terry might have even been an attempted part of this, really) and Buddy was a way to put an extreme amount of pain on him, so going the extra mile to choose a part of her body that would compound the pain exponentially fits what we know of his character even though the result is horrible and in a less-competent work would tarnish the whole thing.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:11
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Xanderkish posted:Tryhard stuff like that doesn't really faze me, mainly because I know they're trying to get a rise out of me through a bunch of really cheap tactics so it ends up less upsetting and more "Aw, how cute." It's in a much more put-together story like this that those things bother me. It's a tonal shift and it fridges Buddy and it replaces the surreal gallows-humor ultraviolence with something a lot more intimate and disturbing and it's ultimately just lazy and stupid and pointlessly shocking. What a cool dude you are.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:18
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I've never really understood how "tryhard" caught on as a widely used insult. Don't you want effort put into a video game, especially since that's not a quality you see in most big-time releases these days? I think that the past update was jarring, for sure, but I just don't see it the way Xanderkish does.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:28
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I don't hate this but it is making me glad I decided not to buy this game. If this isn't even the worst this series has to offer, then I'm really glad I decided to just watch from the outside. It feels like escalation for its own sake and while I don't find it offensive, it is making me feel less invested in the story and characters. I don't know how differently I would have done it had I been in charge though, so whatever.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:29
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Man that whole thing was bleak but that "You got a nipple." message that popped out after it got a chuckle out of me, just like you would find a health potion in any other RPG.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:35
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frajaq posted:Man that whole thing was bleak but that "You got a nipple." message that popped out after it got a chuckle out of me, just like you would find a health potion in any other RPG. Yeah that got a good laugh out of me. I still love this game's dark humor.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:45
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Y-Hat posted:I've never really understood how "tryhard" caught on as a widely used insult. Don't you want effort put into a video game, especially since that's not a quality you see in most big-time releases these days?
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Dec 23, 2015 06:52
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I don't feel the Buzzo decision is done for the sake of being a bleak game, but that's coming from after playing The Joyful, and anymore mention is basically spoilers. But even without playing the game even further, I can understand why people are upset about the Buzzo choices. It feels almost unfair and punishing for what is essentialy something out of your control, and that tends to be a big no-no in game design. However, I will defend the game because it is centered around making players understand Brad's emotions a bit more: he's put in a lovely situtation, time and again, not because of his fault, but because of someone or something else, which you, the player, expeirience through the game. Bullshit choices that demand sacrifice, party members kidnapped or dying randomly, Joy Withdrawl holding back your biggest tools in the game, etc. And then you are tempted to take the cowards way out. For Brad, it's Joy, Violence, Domestic Abuse. For Players, it's just basically calling the game bad, bleak for bleakness sake, pretentious, "tryhard", etc, without thinking through. I'm not saying that any players who think that is evil or bad. If anything, that should actually be the natural response. It was my initial response, for sure. A morally stronger character would eventually find a win-win situation, or at the very least, make the best out of their situation. Undertale is a great game that allows you to experience such character. A more, "better" player, would finish the game, think through, and then be able to give a good, through review on why the game is good or bad, the strong and weak points, what makes or breakes the game and so on. And it would be a good read. But Brad isn't strong enough to warrant that best ending. He can't be. He doesn't have the potential, and perhaps, some of us are, including myself. We can't all be superheros and save the day, and neither can Brad. It's frustrating, and that is why I believe Lisa is great in that aspect. edit: some more 
ArcadePark fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 06:56
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What does "escalation for its own sake" even mean?
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Dec 23, 2015 07:03
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whydirt posted:What does "escalation for its own sake" even mean? It means upping the drama or the stakes without having a logical reason or some foreshadowing of sorts. Like how after defeating the seemingly the final boss, he reveals there's a bigger threat, even though there was no mention of it. Of which I don't think Lisa does, because Buzzo's M.O. is clear-cut: Torture Brad. Buzzo keeps escalating his demand because he doesn't believe Brad has suffered enough. It makes sense to me, at least.
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Dec 23, 2015 07:31
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Yeah, the only thing that's a mystery is his motive behind it. Brad's past is pretty murky, too. We just have the visions of the dead girl and his alcoholic beer-throwing dad.
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Dec 23, 2015 07:44
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Y-Hat posted:I've never really understood how "tryhard" caught on as a widely used insult. Don't you want effort put into a video game, especially since that's not a quality you see in most big-time releases these days? Tangent but it makes more sense when you know trying hard is implicitly followed by "...to be something you're not" i.e. a bunch of nonsense symbolism trying to be deep, a teenager trying to seem provocative.
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Dec 23, 2015 07:44
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Just as a general comment, let's remember that it's possible to like and enjoy a game while simultaneously being critical of certain aspects.
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Dec 23, 2015 07:56
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Also don't read about Lisa the First unless you want spoilers and to question why people trusted dingaling to make a game on kickstarter.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:01
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Is it really spoilers if the game came first?
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Dec 23, 2015 08:07
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I think I would've appreciated not knowing the context that game provides the psychedelic scenes in LISA the Painful, but maybe that's different from it being spoilers. Plus although I'm not too far into it I'm sure LISA the Joyful touches on it anyways.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:15
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Man Whore posted:Is it really spoilers if the game came first? some people are weird about spoilers
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Dec 23, 2015 08:56
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I already explained the first game and was told to not explain it, so yeah wait for when VoD wants to trudge through the connections. I'm amazed people are more upset over the nipple and not Sticky. I'd assume most people would just reload and send in three losers to die so Buddy wouldn't get hurt. Would it be better if Buzzo carved out one of her eyes? An ear? He has to save body parts for later people, Brad is out of arms. Also Terry killed Nern in my very first game. gently caress Terry.
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Dec 23, 2015 09:23
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Just picked up the game in the Steam sale! I don't know if 3 dudes vs 1 nipple is so obvious a choice though, in this world with no sign of any other women. I mean, if they seriously want to try and have Buddy repopulate the human race, that's gonna make breastfeeding a lot more awkward then it has to be. (Hell, my kid had a hard enough time already latching onto normal nipples!)
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Dec 23, 2015 09:31
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You're not supposed to know why Buzzo hates Brad yet, you'll find out eventually but it's not really that important for now. I'm actually kinda surprised that people are acting all neo-goony about what happened in the last update, it's pretty in line with the rest of the game. I mean the tagline of the game is "The miserable journey of a broken man".
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Dec 23, 2015 09:35
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I'm sorta surprised that VOD restarted the fight with Terrible Terry after he snapped Fly's neck. Terry uses his instant kill a lot more often than a lot of mutants, meaning the fight with him can very quickly go from "haha, gently caress you terry" to "OH MY GOD WHAT THE FU -- AAAAAAGH GOD WHYYYYYYY" I know that feeling all too well from seeing Carp's head suddenly get torn off by a mutant. You just can't restart from that. Even if you do, it sticks with you; you can never forget seeing your best gang member snatched away from you when you least expected it. It's like if you blundered onto a loving landmine. SPOILERS: There aren't any landmines in Olathe. There should be, though.
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Dec 23, 2015 10:16
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I'm not a huge fan of the whole thing with Buzzo mostly because it seems a hell of a lot darker than anything else the game has thrown at you. There's a bit of macabre humor with "you got a nipple", sure, but child mutilation isn't funny or weird in the same way that extremely flammable orphans are. Even the abuse of Marty is darkly humorous in just how huge of a horrible human being he is. It seems like the game is just taking a deep plunge into actual, serious drama, and that feels at odds with the whole "we're all horrible fuckups and the world is screwed, but what can you do about it?" tone the game has taken to this point. Tonal whiplash might have been the intent, but frankly I don't think it was executed well here, and made things come across as poorly planned than actively shocking. Like, when Buzzo does his thing, it feels to me like the player is more likely to think "oh come on, again?!" than deeply empathize with the broken man that is Brad.
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Dec 23, 2015 10:32
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I'm surprised no one has called for sticky blood. So I'll be the first. You should have torn sticky apart.
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Dec 23, 2015 11:54
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Fat and Useless posted:I'm amazed people are more upset over the nipple and not Sticky. The simple act of making the mutilation something we, very very loosely, have control over just makes it sting more despite Sticky's betrayal of both Brad and Buddy being incredibly horrible. That Buddy insists nothing happened but talking makes it easier to put to one side, even if you don't 100% believe her (I know I didn't think Sticky was innocent but at that point you're almost automatically going to assume the worst.) The other part is that the choice is one that really pushes you between protecting Buddy at any cost or being rather cold but practical and allowing her to suffer a relatively minor wound (physically but clearly far more harmful psychologically) so you can keep your team and have a better chance of saving her. Objectively it's the sensible choice but it doesn't stop you feeling bad that you've 'willingly' hurt the person, a child, you've been trying to save and care so much about. I agree that it's probably the darkest moment of the game and maybe goes a bit far but I don't think it's try hard or trying to be overly shocking. It's just a brutal display of how hard the world can be and how powerless you really are when you can't just punch your way out of a situation.
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Dec 23, 2015 12:59
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Speedball posted:Yeah, the only thing that's a mystery is his motive behind it. Brad's past is pretty murky, too. We just have the visions of the dead girl and his alcoholic beer-throwing dad. Speaking of which, those "spiders" sure are a thing. As are the fleshy pits they're all around. As far as weird enemy variety goes they're up there with the random guy on garbage island that just shoots himself for 15K damage.
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Dec 23, 2015 13:06
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:I'm sorta surprised that VOD restarted the fight with Terrible Terry On the other hand, if he didn't completely curbstomp Terry with no losses, he couldn't play up the "gently caress Terry, he's worthless and can't do anything" joke [and then subvert it with the alternate timeline pointout]. I expect he did it more for humor than to actually save Fly [also to make the Buzzo choice that much worse since it was killing driveby Fly and not someone random like Garth]. Nekomimi-Maiden fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 13:15
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Eh, didn't want to lose Fly. Just wanted to show off that Terry can insta-kill.
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Dec 23, 2015 13:27
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RabidWeasel posted:Brad is simultaneously both metal as gently caress and pathetic as gently caress, it's pretty impressive actually. It's why I said earlier in the thread that this is the best bio:  You know the incredibly bleak acoustic riff that got a lot of use this update? That's Brad's theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDo4cTuSTc
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Dec 23, 2015 14:01
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The nipple choice is probably my favorite in the game. It seems so clear cut and easy, but then you start to think. What are the lives of 3 party members worth in a game where you have 30? What does all of this matter if you're going to injure Lisa? You already destroyed an orphanage, a construction site, and the food supply of a community of people just to see her. This is Brad's second chance, will Birdie ever get one? Or Olan? On my first playthrough, I killed all 3 party members and then questioned Buzzo. This was on an earlier patch, too, when mutants used their instant death moves much more commonly. Every time I fought one, I basically expected to lose a party member. I don't seem to get why people in the thread think it's a bullshit choice, the Russian Roulette game only spells out the fact that these people are an expendable currency in a bleak, lawless world. I made it through this section with like two or three incredibly underleveled guys back from area 1, no arms, and no items, and I had to use absolutely everything to survive the next hub. Because that's the kind of game this is. Difficulty is not bullshit, especially if it's a logical consequence of your actions.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:11
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Nanomashoes posted:The nipple choice is probably my favorite in the game. It seems so clear cut and easy, but then you start to think. What are the lives of 3 party members worth in a game where you have 30? What does all of this matter if you're going to injure Lisa? You already destroyed an orphanage, a construction site, and the food supply of a community of people just to see her. This is Brad's second chance, will Birdie ever get one? Or Olan? This is the part that kinda bothers me about the choice, honestly. It feels incredibly out of character that Brad wouldn't just sacrifice three people without a moment's hesitation to protect buddy, what with the whole path of destruction and murder he already paved to save her. Yet where Brad spent the last ten or twelve years raising her the player only saw her for a good ten minutes, while they spent significantly more time with their favorite party members. It feels like a choice where Brad would sacrifice three bozos that probably forced themselves into his company to protect his surrogate daughter, but a player would feel more strongly about their three heaviest hitters than pick a choice that barely affects them regarding a character they probably have no emotional connection to. That is, if they don't reload to game the system by just sacrificing their three least favorite characters anyway.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:30
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a cartoon duck posted:This is the part that kinda bothers me about the choice, honestly. It feels incredibly out of character that Brad wouldn't just sacrifice three people without a moment's hesitation to protect buddy, what with the whole path of destruction and murder he already paved to save her. Yet where Brad spent the last ten or twelve years raising her the player only saw her for a good ten minutes, while they spent significantly more time with their favorite party members. It feels like a choice where Brad would sacrifice three bozos that probably forced themselves into his company to protect his surrogate daughter, but a player would feel more strongly about their three heaviest hitters than pick a choice that barely affects them regarding a character they probably have no emotional connection to. That is, if they don't reload to game the system by just sacrificing their three least favorite characters anyway. I took it to mean that maybe, just maybe, Brad is starting to wake up and care more about other people. That the game let you spare Rick and Sticky also made me feel like that was the case. Far, far too late, of course. It wouldn't be LISA if Brad redeemed himself in any reasonable capacity.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:59
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Small Frozen Thing posted:Lisa the First is absolutely tryhard garbo That's the truth. I went to film school for two years before I came to my senses and left. One of my most vivid memories is of sitting in a screenwriting class while some guy read out the synopsis of his script that was essentially a torture porn flick of a mother and daughter captured and forced to perform incest (and possibly other violent acts, I can't entirely remember) on each other while being filmed, basically human centipede stuff. Guy was literally cringing while he talked about it, and the professor was visibly uncomfortable and could only make jokes about how it was "a love story". The guy seemed, as far as I could tell, a pretty ordinary film student. He just made a disgusting script because, I don't know, "art" or something. None of that is to say that that's what Dingaling is like. And like I said, I do like most of the game. Just that, yeah, there's a reason the term "tryhard" exists.
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Dec 23, 2015 15:07
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Xanderkish posted:That's the truth. I went to film school for two years before I came to my senses and left. One of my most vivid memories is of sitting in a screenwriting class while some guy read out the synopsis of his script that was essentially a torture porn flick of a mother and daughter captured and forced to perform incest (and possibly other violent acts, I can't entirely remember) on each other while being filmed, basically human centipede stuff. Guy was literally cringing while he talked about it, and the professor was visibly uncomfortable and could only make jokes about how it was "a love story". The guy seemed, as far as I could tell, a pretty ordinary film student. He just made a disgusting script because, I don't know, "art" or something. I teach collegiate creative writing and script writing, and that sounds more like a problem with that student and/or your school than it does with the idea of film school in general.
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Dec 23, 2015 15:27
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Railing Kill posted:I teach collegiate creative writing and script writing, and that sounds more like a problem with that student and/or your school than it does with the idea of film school in general. Oh I wasn't saying it was the problem with film school, just that those kinds of artists exist.
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Dec 23, 2015 15:29
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