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I don't think depleting Mara's 3000 MP is a viable, expected strategy, I mean, don't you get like less than 50 per mana drain?
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Jan 8, 2016 12:36
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Woooooaaah there mom  : That is NOT what I meant, and you know it! Besides, some of my best friends are Dark-aligned. : Not helping, mom.Petiso posted:I don't think depleting Mara's 3000 MP is a viable, expected strategy, I mean, don't you get like less than 50 per mana drain? Well, that's how I did it on my first playthrough (I hardly touched the Labyrinth until the end of the game, so I would not have been nearly as leveled), and I kinda expected I might have to resort to it this time around as well. :3 It does take a long time and I wouldn't exactly recommend it, but with a couple demons with high Magic using Mana/Life Drain, a couple Rakunda casts (Dekunda isn't a factor) and counting Mara's own MP consumption (at least 15 per turn for Diarahan alone, up to 45 total with a Dismal Tune cast), it's not entirely as ludicrous as it may first appear. And you're certainly not running out of MP for healing yourself.
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Jan 8, 2016 13:55
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If we're being fair, I have never once seen anybody ever go with Musubi, and Isamu being a blazing loving hypocrite is probably 90% of the reason why. Yosuga gets some people sometimes because it's basically just the Chaos ending, and Nobody ever goes with Nihilo because who ever goes with the Law ending in an SMT game? (spoiler-tagged because it hasn't become an official reason yet; i think you can figure out exactly what it is though)
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Jan 9, 2016 02:03
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Sure, Isamu is a poo poo, but I tended to (charitably) interpret the concept of Musubi as more of an assertion of metaphysical solipsism, namely the idea that everyone gets to live in a world where they are the only ones "known" to exist, with the possible bonus that reality can therefore be bent to reflect conscious or unconscious desires. People who want Yosuga or Shijima can still have it, and people who want the world reflective of some other ideal can have that. The cost of solitude could theoretically be explained away as the people uncomfortable with the idea not necessarily being aware of the fact that they are alone, in the same sense that our current reality may or may not be an illusion created by our minds. I mean, I still didn't go for it at the time because Isamu is probably the worst person in the multiverse to try to explain the appeal of it, but on speaking with other NPCs later in the game I can see how it would offer some solutions as a Reason.
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Jan 9, 2016 17:27
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I think the main appeal of Musubi is that "Spam sushi" actually sounds delicious.
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Jan 9, 2016 18:37
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ModeWondershot posted:Sure, Isamu is a poo poo, but I tended to (charitably) interpret the concept of Musubi as more of an assertion of metaphysical solipsism, namely the idea that everyone gets to live in a world where they are the only ones "known" to exist, with the possible bonus that reality can therefore be bent to reflect conscious or unconscious desires. People who want Yosuga or Shijima can still have it, and people who want the world reflective of some other ideal can have that. The cost of solitude could theoretically be explained away as the people uncomfortable with the idea not necessarily being aware of the fact that they are alone, in the same sense that our current reality may or may not be an illusion created by our minds.
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Jan 9, 2016 18:52
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Shitenshi posted:Pretty much how I saw it too. It also saves you the trouble of dealing with barrier-change boy, but when push comes to shove, I always backstab Isamu for the True Demon Ending. It doesn't help that Noah HATES Pierce. Give your Demifiend Freikugel+Pierce and all of his bullshit goes out the window. That works great for the time trial, but you probably won't be a high enough level to have that skill by the time you fight him.
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Jan 9, 2016 19:05
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ModeWondershot posted:Sure, Isamu is a poo poo, but I tended to (charitably) interpret the concept of Musubi as more of an assertion of metaphysical solipsism, namely the idea that everyone gets to live in a world where they are the only ones "known" to exist, with the possible bonus that reality can therefore be bent to reflect conscious or unconscious desires. People who want Yosuga or Shijima can still have it, and people who want the world reflective of some other ideal can have that. The cost of solitude could theoretically be explained away as the people uncomfortable with the idea not necessarily being aware of the fact that they are alone, in the same sense that our current reality may or may not be an illusion created by our minds. Hmm, I suppose I could see that, but even that version strikes me as fairly horrifying. But I guess that in the end, if I had to choose between the Reasons we've seen so far and I was absolutely deprived of any other alternative, I'd probably go for it.
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Jan 10, 2016 12:58
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 : Isamu, we've known each other for so drat long. I liked you. Hell, I still kinda like you, even now, because I haven't forgotten who I am. And after all this time, after that hat, after that belt buckle, after you told me what to wear even though you knew I had already left home, after you thought Ms. Takao would go to jail for you, you've never been quite as dumb as you've been in the last thirty seconds. Are you even listening to yourself? Everyone gets to jerk off for hundreds of years until they get sick of it and make themselves a cliff to jump off of? That's your paradise? Give me a break. People are a pain in the rear end sometimes, and we're not wired to give a poo poo about everyone we pass on the street, but everyone alone, all the time, until the next drat Conception? I think I'm gonna puke. : ...I had a feeling that you wouldn't understand. I guess it doesn't matter to you, since you're not human anymore.: gently caress you.: As for me, I'll prove I'm right by creating the world of Musubi.: Yeah, we'll see about that.: You should spend some time alone, Francois... Then, see what you think.     : Holy crap, talk about going for the nards! What a little turd.: If Kaneda had spoken to me like that, I'm not sure even God could have brought him back after I was done with him.: Guys, if I ever start talking like him, kill me. : Not it! : Not it! : Nope! Nuh-uh! : It falls not to your allies to guard your thoughts, doubly so if it would put them in danger.: Yeah... Yeah, I'm sorry. That's too much to ask. : Are you really so close to a change of mind?: I don't think so, but... I wouldn't have thought Isamu would ever say that sort of thing either. : Don't worry, I'm sure we could find a way to get some sense back into you. : I volunteer if any slapping is required!: Without it coming to blows.: If you think slapping is only ever a gesture of violence, I pity you.: Brahma and I have done things that would vaporize your mind, you little-: Haha, alright, alright, alright, I get the picture. Besides, as long as I have the lot of you by my side, I'd be surprised if I forgot how good it feels to have friends around. : YOU REJECT YOUR HUMAN FRIEND, YET IT IS THE COMPANY OF DEMONS THAT REMINDS YOU OF YOUR HUMANITY?: Huh. I... guess so. Is that weird?: ONLY FASCINATING. Well, that was a colossal waste of time. Let's see if we can find a place to contact Hijiri from and get the hell away from this den of cretins.  Or we can just walk out. That works too.   : Yeah, it's pretty hard for me to track him in there. And he's got lots of degenerates who think like him all over the place blocking the way, too. : I'll go after him. You don't have to go inside Amala anymore.: Huh. Well, I can't say I disagree with that course of action. Do be careful, but you have my blessing, if I have one to give. You got any idea what I could go after next? : Ah. Alright then, I'll find my own way. You've certainly been a big help so far.: If there's somewhere you want to go, don't wait for me. If not, why don't you check out Asakusa? Who knows...? Maybe you'll find something new...: Oh, I've been all over the place already. Maybe I'll see if the Collector has set up shop yet, but it doesn't look like he works very fast. Anyway, I won't keep you. Smell ya later!*: We heal up, register, etc. I pick up a few Mahama Rocks at the Junk Store, earning us a tenth ticket, but choosing the white box only gets us another Balm of Rising. Still, that's not too bad. The Collector Manikin is still not open for business yet. Maybe Futomimi is ready to give his prophecy by now? Aaaaand he's not. Good thing Mifunashiro is only an Amala Link away. Let's go to the Labyrinth next, maybe Kamala has a lead for us. Aaaaand she does not. While we're in the neighborhood, we might as well finish clearing out the accessible areas of the Third Kalpa. I'm getting pretty ace at the very first tunnel minigame by now! But I'm still terrible at the others. I finish exploring as much of the eastern Magic branch as we can access, but it yields no further loot. There should still be parts of the northern Luck branch to check out.   quote:Lv61 Beast Cerberus *: We come up empty-handed. Everything that's left of of the northern branch is behind a luck door. I haven't exactly neglected Luck, not to the degree I've neglected Magic, so maybe we're not far off from being approved of by one of the remaining doors. I think I'll increase it from 12 to 15 in the next few levels.     quote:Lv46 Genma Hanuman *: In a final bid to try and squeeze some more loot out of this trip, I huff up the two Strength Incenses we have and make an attempt at the last remaining strength door.  *: Well hey, whaddayaknow. This took us to 26, but I'm inclined to believe the break point is at 25. In any case, this proves conclusively that the bonus stats from Magatama do not count for these doors. They didn't count for the door in the Mantra basement HQ either.   This one seems... shinier.  *: Ah, that one's an alignment check. A while back I mentioned alignment rarely had an effect; well, this is one. We have five mastered Magatama so far: one Light (Iyomante) and four Neutral (Wadatsumi, Hifumi, Kamudo and Murakumo). So we're still Neutral, and the door's off limits. We have Dark-aligned Muspell on right now, and it will surrender its last skill soon, and we have a few more Dark Magatama that are one skill away from being mastered, but I'm not sure I want to dedicate our next several levels to earn the likes of Anti-Fire or Mamudoon instead of working towards skills we'd actually use. Oh well! In any case, that's as much as we can explore until our Luck gets higher, so we retrace our steps back to Asakusa, where we heal up, save, register, and consider our options. In terms of fusion, I have a bit of a long plan in mind, but I like the sound of it, so we warp to Ginza and trade a Jade and an Amethyst at Rag's for a Nigi Mitama. It'll need to earn four levels to learn the skill I want, but it's only at 29 so it won't take an obscene amount of experience. Besides, once it's maxed out, it'll be in the Compendium and we can get another any time we please. Alright, so the wheels are in motion on that front. But where do we go next? We've nearly run out of directions, but one of the Manikins in the newly cleaned up Asakusa areas mentioned something going on in the Amala Network and the Mantra HQ. We've just dealt with the Network, which leaves only one clear way to go.   : A human guy was here, too.*: We earn a few Lucky Tickets stocking up on various elemental attack Rocks. You never know when those'll come in handy, even if it's only to avoid just Passing a turn. And heck, in the end I pick up a few Light/Float balls to get another tenth ticket. The white box earns us a Strength Incense!   Cutscene: Shijima*: Dang, I'm not too keen on a dinky little fun-size update like this, but I only dare stretch it so far before it risks feeling like padding, and all the optional stuff I could think of went to the pre-Isamu update. (Or... uh, almost. Something occured to me in editing, but, it would have been very quick anyway.) Still, it's major decision time again! We don't have a non-committal response this time. This reflects Hikawa's zealous, uncompromising nature; now that he finds us worthy of his attention, either we support his ideal, or we become his enemy. So! Shijima. Strong, weak, doesn't matter, all have their place. And everyone's working together side by side. No war, no pain, no greed, no cruelty, no crime or pollution, no loneliness or abuse, just a luminous, harmonious whole where all know their fate and walk its path until contented rest comes to them. Wouldn't that just be so sweet? Wouldn't that just have made it worth it to murder billions? Kagutsuchi is watching.
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Jan 10, 2016 13:03
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So it's a forced sort of enlightenment he proposes. Everyone ascends into a state equal with the world, and the world with them. The parts measured and decided by their wholes. Hikawa a dick tho nope.
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Jan 10, 2016 13:33
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Hell no. Are we seriously the only sane person left in this lunatic sphere? Is the guy who babysits and commands demons the only sane person in existence? A world of serenity, for humans? That's like demons making a functional society and we've already essentially watched two of them collapse in this place.
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Jan 10, 2016 13:34
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No, no way It's like being in crazy demon land has made all these people go crazy somehow.
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Jan 10, 2016 13:39
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NewMars posted:No, no way Not really. Apocalypses tend to spare the craziest.
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Jan 10, 2016 13:57
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My personal feelings on the matter aside (I like pain and bloodshed, so this would be super boring for me) Hikawa's future sounds kinda like the society from Brave New World. Everyone has their place, and everyone's happy about their place. The few people that aren't happy about their place are given places where they WILL be happy. Something like that. Still, the problem lies in that the society I mentioned is a dystopia. There's no chance for improvement or challenge, everything you will ever be is laid out for you. The path you walk will be one you're content with, but... there's no drive to do so. There's no end-goal in sight aside from peace. I'm afraid I can't abide by that. No.
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Jan 10, 2016 15:00
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Fire is what drives people to live. Inner fire is what makes people strive to exist. To succeed. For good or ill, mankind was intended to create, not mindless servitude to sustain a single thing. So gently caress your destiny, gently caress your ugly suit, gently caress your stupid hair, and gently caress you.
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Jan 10, 2016 16:22
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Piss off. It would be nice if this was actual enlightenment, a sort of quasi-Musubi where everyone has a divine status except they're pooling their talents together, but this is keeping humanity stagnant. Serenity and peace sound good until it's been six thousand years and everyone still thinks bloodletting is good medicine.
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Jan 10, 2016 16:45
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I hope there's an ending where we say no to all options presented to us, because Hikawa can go gently caress himself.
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Jan 10, 2016 16:46
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Hikawa, screw you and your widow's peak, you murdered the entire world and now you want some help?
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Jan 10, 2016 16:59
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Finally piping to say that this is a good thread, but Hikawa is bad and his ideas are bad. All these Reasons suck, I say follow the Reason of spiting these dumb assholes.
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Jan 10, 2016 17:42
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DraconicImpulse posted:I hope there's an ending where we say no to all options presented to us, because Hikawa can go gently caress himself. It's an SMT game, of course there's a "gently caress all you nerds" ending somewhere.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:49
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As a matter of fact, I like having emotions, feelings, hopes, dreams and whatnot, not to mention that your Reason would destroy a vital (if not the most important) part of the human condition. Also, you killed the entire human race for this you selfish, egotistical prick. In short, I agree with my colleagues that you can gently caress off. Gideon020 posted:Are we seriously the only sane person left in this lunatic sphere? Is the guy who babysits and commands demons the only sane person in existence? Yes we are the only bastion of sanity here; it's amazing what happens in SMT games in general when you give people the power to tame demons and end the world. Turns out the apocalypse is a great time for every whacko with a god-complex to come out of the woodwork and start declaring how their world is going to be so amazing guys Again, these Reason people could have been less raging hypocrites. That would help. Dr. Snark fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 18:58
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The irony here is that these responses technically prove Hikawa basically right, though his methodology in getting there is as realpolitik as possible. Also, Hikawa is not actually being a hypocrite here. That would require he be proposing special exemptions for himself. Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 19:02
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Tallgeese posted:The irony here is that these responses technically prove Hikawa basically right, though his methodology in getting there is as realpolitik as possible. To paraphrase what a wise man once said: Hikawa's not wrong, he's just an rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 10, 2016 19:04
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As an aside, it is an error to try and assign standard alignment labels to the Reasons. This is because they're all versions of Law. They propose working within the rules established by the Great Will that result in the creation of a new world. The three alignments are almost wholly defined by their presumed attitude towards the Will's rule.
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Jan 10, 2016 19:19
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At least it's a lot less chaotic than Yosuga. Interesting that Hikawa would decide to sacrifice from the world the things that got him here in the first place: the ambition to create his perfect world, and the fire that kept him going in a direction no man has gone to (killing the entire world). I'm not sure whether that counts as self-destructive or self-defeating. I'd give him a neutral answer for acknowledging that you're a badass and having a sweet cutscene. (That's a faster, more insistent version of the tune you hear when you first meet him.) But he doesn't want a neutral answer, so that's a nope. Miacis fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 20:39
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Tallgeese posted:As an aside, it is an error to try and assign standard alignment labels to the Reasons. Hmm, well stepping away from the SMT's second axis being light-neutral-dark, in a way you could say that Musubi is true neutral, Shijima is lawful-good (albeit an absolutely enforced good, which is problematic in its own ways) and the last one is lawful-evil.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:40
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I kinda see where he's coming from, but I disagree good sir. I do like how his little speech seems to have been swiped from the intro to Dark Souls though, I can just see him sinking hundreds of hours into the game because it's the only one who understands him. Still, it's kind of odd that his reason is the only one that is selfless in nature, as opposed to Musabi and Yosuga.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:43
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ManlyGrunting posted:I kinda see where he's coming from, but I disagree good sir. I do like how his little speech seems to have been swiped from the intro to Dark Souls though, I can just see him sinking hundreds of hours into the game because it's the only one who understands him.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:01
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ManlyGrunting posted:Still, it's kind of odd that his reason is the only one that is selfless in nature, as opposed to Musabi and Yosuga. This sort of semi-but-not-really-a-contradiction is intentional. Let me point out another one: All three Reasons are backed up by demons that do not make sense initially. Think about it. Shijima, the one most commonly called the Law alignment, is backed up by Incubi and the Fallen Angels. Musubi, the loners (read: Bad Neutral), backed up by Haunts. What are Haunts characterized by? Amalgamations of spirits. Legion, Chorozon. Not to mention, look at Isamu's body. Yosuga, the supposed Chaos faction, backed up by Thor and angels. It makes sense, but it requires thinking a little bit outside the SMT box, and unfortunately the box comes back in full force later. Which is generally the case with SMT when it starts playing with a good idea. Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 21:08
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Hikawa? Go gently caress yourself. Your world sounds like all sunshine and unicorns farting rainbows, but you're little more than a creature of wants. You WANT to control the world. You WANT to give people a new world. But your 'purpose' is poo poo. Your 'purpose' demeans intelligence it's self. We work for the world, yes. But giving up individuality for that....gently caress you. Can't wait to see your smug face hanging from a pike.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:26
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fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yooooooooooooooooou On a side note, we're really starting to run out of endings we haven't locked ourselves out of. edit: Hey, Frank, you have that GIF of the Demi-Fiend punching a dude for ~500 damage? I need it for a thing. Sordas Volantyr fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 22:24
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Sordas Volantyr posted:On a side note, we're really starting to run out of endings we haven't locked ourselves out of. I haven't kept track of our Reason "alignment" points (I'll explain the nuts and bolts of that particular system somewhere down the line), but I'm pretty sure there's in fact a small chance that we're not entirely locked out of every Reason we've refused to agree with yet. And even if we were, we're still far from done decidin' stuff! Sordas Volantyr posted:edit: Hey, Frank, you have that GIF of the Demi-Fiend punching a dude for ~500 damage? I need it for a thing. There it is! Smashing idea to capture that moment there by the way, Miacis. 
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Jan 10, 2016 23:21
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Hahaha, no. On the subject of endings, I can really only see this LP ending with one of the two 'gently caress you all' endings. And while I'd love to see how you write Francois deciding to go with the 'gently caress you ALL' ending, I somehow don't expect it to happen.
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Jan 11, 2016 00:12
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FrankZP posted:I haven't kept track of our Reason "alignment" points (I'll explain the nuts and bolts of that particular system somewhere down the line), but I'm pretty sure there's in fact a small chance that we're not entirely locked out of every Reason we've refused to agree with yet. And even if we were, we're still far from done decidin' stuff! Until that happens, we should still have 4 possible endings. It's a bit silly how Nocturne still lets you align with someone you outright told "I have seen your philosophy, and it sucks."
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Jan 11, 2016 01:30
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Honestly, this is alright as a Reason, I guess, but with that suit and that haircut, it offends me enough to say no.
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Jan 11, 2016 01:34
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Miacis posted:It's a bit silly how Nocturne still lets you align with someone you outright told "I have seen your philosophy, and it sucks."
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Jan 11, 2016 01:59
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GilliamYaeger posted:It makes sense if you think of it as "I've now seen everyone else's too and yours sucks the least." This, I think. We rejected the Reason because we (naively) thought that there was another way, a better way, but in the end everyone else was just a shithead with bad hair or a massive hypocrite. So we go with the people we hate the least.
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Jan 11, 2016 03:58
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Ah Shijima, the most 'beneficial' of all three reasons. Perfect Harmony, no strife, no anger, no pain, no fear... ... No love, no spontaneity, no smiles... ... Just calm, silence and stillness... ... Shijima is the most well crafted of the three reasons mostly because Hikawa was the instigator of the Conception, he already had an idea of what he wanted out of the event, He caused the riot in the park, and he has seen the base animal humanity is. Or so he claims. Mind, just like Musubi and Yosuga, this is a selfish Reason, because it's Hikawa's bias of the world. He's a billionaire, was a high priest of the cult of Gaia and Was a Charismatic CEO of a multi-national company. Everyone who is not higher then him, are beneath him. and thus commoners who must bow to his judgement. Shijima is based on the Buddhist concept of Mu, pure nothingness. No emotions, no random thoughts, no distractions. But then again, stifling the fire of emotion, also extinguishes the warmth it brings. Would it be worth it to remake the world this way? There would be no war, or pain, but then again, there would be no energy or emotion. I personally hate worlds like that. With no energy what's the point of living? Oh, and Isamu also shows that he's basically violating the Reason of Musubi right from the get do. How did he get the power to Form his Reason? He fused with a bunch of souls. Not by working for it by himself. cdyoung fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 05:27
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Alright, that'll count as sufficient, I'll get the process started momentarily. Hikawa's gonna be devastated when I tell him what you guys thought of his plans, but someone's gonna have to have his heart broken by the mere sight of his tears, and it might as well be me.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:53
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I know there aren't any more votes required at this point, but I just wanted to add my two cents: If humans work for the world, with no emotional investment in said work besides serving their reality-mandated orders and acting for optimal harmony, well, who benefits? The humans are basically just meat muppets, and the world doesn't benefit because reality doesn't have its own preferences. Shijima is the Reason of no one getting what they want.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:28
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