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i dont think rajafa likes anything. deep down it doesnt even like star citizen
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Jan 10, 2016 20:10
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Thanks for making me defend CIG devs again, thread. 
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Jan 10, 2016 20:11
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TTerrible posted:I do not understand why people keep holding this up as something CIG are doing wrong. First of all, it is the standard way of doing vehicles in FPS games. UE4 does it this way, the Tribes games did it this way and the Battlefield games do too. Second, they're very clearly doing more than this. This is what I was saying above (although you said it better.) I wouldn't say they're doing it wrong - I'd say they're doing it badly. It probably keeps coming up because people are trying to understand the weird behavior on the PTU. Scruffpuff fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 20:12
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TTerrible posted:First of all, it is the standard way of doing vehicles in FPS games. UE4 does it this way, the Tribes games did it this way and the Battlefield games do too. Second, they're very clearly doing more than this. I'm actually just learning about this and I'm going to be holding it against any game that does it from now on. It's a sensible trick or whatever, but it's also goofy and stupid and hilarious.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:12
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it's weird, last night I was just thinking (I don't sleep, really it sucks) and I had just kinda made that video for fun, this thread just inspired me and I like to make people laugh. Anyhow I just kinda threw it together and that was that. Then last night I was realized that sandi ben and chris might actually watch it and like lol. It's weird to realize that these people who should be so far removed from that kinda poo poo might blow a gasket at something so silly. Weird poo poo man.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:13
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Scruffpuff posted:This is what I was saying above (although you said it better.) I wouldn't say they're doing it wrong - I'd say they're doing it badly. I didn't see your post until after I'd hit submit, we're saying the same thing. If they got this working as intended (they won't before it implodes) it'd be very, very cool. The people at the top of this project are crazy and the backers are toxic but the devs are doing their best to implement some of this stuff and I wish they'd had the opportunity to do it somewhere sane. Khanstant posted:I'm actually just learning about this and I'm going to be holding it against any game that does it from now on. It's a sensible trick or whatever, but it's also goofy and stupid and hilarious. Why though? It is the best way of doing it until what SC has promised is doable. There isn't really another way to implement it that makes sense. Forcing the player to control their players arms on a steering wheel would result in hilarious Tresspaser-esque gifs.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:15
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TTerrible posted:I do not understand why people keep holding this up as something CIG are doing wrong. First of all, it is the standard way of doing vehicles in FPS games. UE4 does it this way, the Tribes games did it this way and the Battlefield games do too. Second, they're very clearly doing more than this. I don't know why you're getting annoyed. The player becomes the ship is a simple way to describe it. Yes the ship isn't a player character and does all kinds of other stuff, but if you can't board a ship and shoot the pilot in the head, because the pilot avatar head (or anyone in a seat) isn't really attached to the head anymore, then a lot of fever dreams about piracy aren't going to come true. If this is the base skeleton of the game, then there's a good chance they'll never fix this fundamental flaw in "immersion". Saying everyone else does it this way is just the icing on the cake after all the promises of the best damm space game ever.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:16
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:I don't get what it is about the Vanduul that we're supposed to care about Let's try to unravel Chris Robert's logic here, based on past experiences with the crap his brain shits out: They're aliens, which makes them evil. Done. 
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Jan 10, 2016 20:17
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Since we're on the subject, kind of, what makes mirrors in videogames so apparently impossible to do? Even many modern games don't do mirrors, it's weird. Is it super tricky to make a believable mirror?
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Jan 10, 2016 20:18
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AP posted:I don't know why you're getting annoyed. The player becomes the ship is a simple way to describe it. Yes the ship isn't a player character and does all kinds of other stuff, but if you can't board a ship and shoot the pilot in the head, because the pilot avatar head (or anyone in a seat) isn't really attached to the head anymore, then a lot of fever dreams about piracy aren't going to come true. I'm not getting annoyed at that. Not allowing the mounted players to take damage is dumb as hell, and I have no idea why they haven't implemented it - but a lot of people have posted things to the effect of "lol the player just becomes the ship haha cig are incompetent why dont they do it properly" without realising that they are doing it properly and they've played a ton of other games that do exactly this. Khanstant posted:Since we're on the subject, kind of, what makes mirrors in videogames so apparently impossible to do? Even many modern games don't do mirrors, it's weird. Is it super tricky to make a believable mirror? You're rendering the entire view twice. The game becomes twice as demanding when a mirror is in view. It also does some exciting things if you're trying to do clever tricks with depth buffers and whatever in your game and then suddenly you're doing it twice and its flipped and you're looking at it from the other side and oh god
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Jan 10, 2016 20:19
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TTerrible posted:I didn't see your post until after I'd hit submit, we're saying the same thing. If they got this working as intended (they won't before it implodes) it'd be very, very cool. The people at the top of this project are crazy and the backers are toxic but the devs are doing their best to implement some of this stuff and I wish they'd had the opportunity to do it somewhere sane. I agree. But there are side-effects of doing it this way that run contrary to their design goals. Example: Let's say some guy parks his Constellation but hasn't gotten out yet. Me as the happy pirate that I am, sneak in and attempt to shoot the pilot and hijack the ship. But what's this? My bullets pass through the pilot? Yes, because that pilot is just a placeholder model. Unless that guy leaves his seat, there's dick-all I can do to steal it. Now the pilot knows this, so now he'll never get out of the chair, and I'm stuck holding my virtual dick with nothing to do. That means immersion has been broken for me, because I can't shoot a guy who's right there, but I can if he gets up. It breaks it for the pilot, because by staying in his seat, he's playing the metagame, rather than being immersed. And so on. The devs have an absolutely herculean task in front of them, and as you said, in any other company it would be fun as hell to work this all out. But at CIG, with Roberts breathing down your neck, it's gotta be awful.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:20
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TTerrible posted:I do not understand why people keep holding this up as something CIG are doing wrong. First of all, it is the standard way of doing vehicles in FPS games. UE4 does it this way, the Tribes games did it this way and the Battlefield games do too. Second, they're very clearly doing more than this. It's not that they're doing something wrong by doing it this way. It's that they're doing it poorly after having claimed that they wouldn't be using these kinds of tricks (somehow). The addition of letting the player control a complex object that affects other players is far from new, and the addition of a physics grid as part of that object is the only slightly fancy part (but isn't new either). quote:Speculating about masking animations and train hats in an effort to discredit CIG is starting to veer towards being reverse Octopode. There are so many legitimate things to criticise it's frustrating to see this come up over and over.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:20
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AP posted:I don't know why you're getting annoyed. The player becomes the ship is a simple way to describe it. Yes the ship isn't a player character and does all kinds of other stuff, but if you can't board a ship and shoot the pilot in the head, because the pilot avatar head (or anyone in a seat) isn't really attached to the head anymore, then a lot of fever dreams about piracy aren't going to come true. It being the fundamentals of the game doesn't mean that they won't alter / tune those fundamentals.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:20
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Khanstant posted:Since we're on the subject, kind of, what makes mirrors in videogames so apparently impossible to do? Even many modern games don't do mirrors, it's weird. Is it super tricky to make a believable mirror? I'm no game developer, but most games don't actually render your character, so to have a mirror that does seems like a little bit of coding gymnastics need involved for what might not amount for more than a gimmick. edit: and every mirror would effectively double what needs rendered in the scene wouldn't it? CHICKEN SHOES fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 20:20
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TTerrible posted:I'm not getting annoyed at that. Not allowing the mounted players to take damage is dumb as hell, and I have no idea why they haven't implemented it - but a lot of people have posted things to the effect of "lol the player just becomes the ship haha cig are incompetent why dont they do it properly" without realising that they are doing it properly and they've played a ton of other games that do exactly this. If you can't shoot the pilot in the head then it's not done properly. I don't care how they do it but I bet you can't even discuss the issue anywhere else so there's zero evidence they actually intend to.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:21
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I thought the real issue was that they're trying to implement physics inside the ship instead of handwaving inertial dampers or whatever magic would keep people from rocketing across the ship. And that's why the ships keep on loving up.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:22
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Tippis posted:It's not that they're doing something wrong by doing it this way. It's that they're doing it poorly after having claimed that they wouldn't be using these kinds of tricks (somehow). The addition of letting the player control a complex object that affects other players is far from new, and the addition of a physics grid as part of that object is the only slightly fancy part (but isn't new either). Ok so how are they supposed to do it? I said this in another post but do you want trespaseser-esqe control of your hands and you have to smash them into the the throttle like playing surgeon simulator? I don't think that allowing the pilot to posses the ship entity is a bad thing. It is the most sensible way to transfer control. Not having the player beign able to take damage while in that state is pants on head retarded and they should have fixed it in the first hotfix to the PTU.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:22
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Iglocska posted:It being the fundamentals of the game doesn't mean that they won't alter / tune those fundamentals. I should have more faith right? Can you link me something where they even discuss this?
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Jan 10, 2016 20:24
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 https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/407yoc/derek_threatens_to_dox_again/cys6ckd
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Jan 10, 2016 20:24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxgz5KVEek Nobody told me they added hood ornaments already. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMoKjHlxBow This is now my favourite video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYzTccri3sE Did we cover multiplayer desyncs yet? Khanstant posted:Since we're on the subject, kind of, what makes mirrors in videogames so apparently impossible to do? Even many modern games don't do mirrors, it's weird. Is it super tricky to make a believable mirror? You'd have to render the whole scene again for each mirror, it's super performance intensive. Good explanation: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-video-games-have-an-aversion-to-using-working-mirrors-in-their-environments
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Jan 10, 2016 20:24
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TTerrible posted:Ok so how are they supposed to do it? I said this in another post but do you want trespaseser-esqe control of your hands and you have to smash them into the the throttle like playing surgeon simulator? I don't think that allowing the pilot to posses the ship entity is a bad thing. It is the most sensible way to transfer control. Not having the player beign able to take damage while in that state is pants on head retarded and they should have fixed it in the first hotfix to the PTU. No-one knows. That's part of why people raised an eyebrow at the whole suggesting and started saying that it couldn't be done. There are two issues at hand that need to be kept separate: the actual implementation in relation to what they said they were going to do, on the one hand, and the quality of implementation on the other. The fact that they're cheating when they said they wouldn't is funny; the fact that they're cheating badly makes it even funnier. Daztek posted:You'd have to render the whole scene again for each mirror, it's super performance intensive. You also generally have to render parts of the scene that could otherwise be culled. It's a mirror; it shows the stuff that's in the opposite direction of what you're looking at — stuff that now has to be included and calculated where before it could just be instantly ignored.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:25
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Khanstant posted:Since we're on the subject, kind of, what makes mirrors in videogames so apparently impossible to do? Even many modern games don't do mirrors, it's weird. Is it super tricky to make a believable mirror? Mirrors are easy to make, if you make a horror game in which every single mirror is cursed to be some kind of portal into another dimension. If you want mirrors to act like real mirrors, uh that's kind of hard
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Jan 10, 2016 20:25
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TTerrible posted:I do not understand why people keep holding this up as something CIG are doing wrong. First of all, it is the standard way of doing vehicles in FPS games. UE4 does it this way, the Tribes games did it this way and the Battlefield games do too. Second, they're very clearly doing more than this. Sorry, perhaps I was unclear - I'm not saying this is fundamentally "wrong", but it does seem to be directly at odds with other game features. Ship boarding is the biggest example of this, but multi-crew ships with the fidelity that they're claiming to have is another one. CIG want us to be able to board a ship, have an FPS style gun fight with the crew as if the ship was an FPS level, but at the same time one or more of your opponents are embedded parts of the level that you're playing in. Currently there's been no effort to resolve this, pilots are just the same as the chair or the windows - immortal parts of the ship geometry - but how DO they fix this? Have a "press F to kill the pilot" prompt? How do they fix this in a way that isn't clunky as hell? I have no idea how they're planning to solve this but it seems like a direct conflict between CIG using the "normal" shortcuts that actually don't work when they're trying to make a game as complex as SC.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:27
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Chalks posted:Why are the ring rotation animations so glitchy as if they're suffering from network lag? I've always noticed this and it doesn't make any sense. Why aren't the ring animations client side? Are they really trying to stream full dynamic structure animations directly from the server? What's the point of that? The ring animations aren't client side because you are able to fly through the rings, so there is a moving collision volume that needs to support physical interaction with a network replicated object, meaning it too needs to be replicated. Nothing would break "immersion" (heh) so much as a connie flying full pelt through a pylon like it doesn't exist because the rotation is at a different phase in a peer's simulation. 'Course, there are other ways of approaching those types of problem (e.g. synchronized rotation based on elapsed time with drift correction, fixed physics time-step, etc), but this is likely a naive first pass.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:28
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Is there a wiki for this poo poo from the beginning? All I know about it is it's a huge scam, I deserve to know more.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:28
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I love you Dr. Smart
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Jan 10, 2016 20:29
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TTerrible posted:Ok so how are they supposed to do it? I said this in another post but do you want trespaseser-esqe control of your hands and you have to smash them into the the throttle like playing surgeon simulator? I don't think that allowing the pilot to posses the ship entity is a bad thing. It is the most sensible way to transfer control. Not having the player beign able to take damage while in that state is pants on head retarded and they should have fixed it in the first hotfix to the PTU. I don't think CIG ever came out and expressly stated that they would not do things like this (I'm sure someone has a link if I'm wrong), but they sure as hell implied it, and that makes all the difference. They have been going balls-to-the-wall with making sure everyone out there knows that everything they are doing is unprecendented, and that's why they need north of 100 million dollars to do it. And please keep donating. Think of how long this game could have been out by now if they had stopped worrying about how they're coming across, and begging for all this adulation for making no technological compromises, with a healthy dose of a martyr complex on top, and just made a loving game already.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:29
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Botnit posted:Is there a wiki for this poo poo from the beginning? All I know about it is it's a huge scam, I deserve to know more. Yeah, the first post.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:29
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So I was farting around Steam today and decided to take a look at some of Derek's games and reviews and stumbled across this unfavorable review of the UC DLC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hMdoVRJ0dw The interesting part that stuck out to me was the header of the review. quote:A big shout out and thank you to Matilda from Reddit for gifting me the DLC that made this video possible! (bold emphasis added by me) Also funny is a comment from some person:  Matilda = Derek 
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Jan 10, 2016 20:30
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Bootcha posted:Goonz iz made fer fightin'. I always preferred to think of goons as Imperial Guard. Were a bunch of neckbeards fighting with paper armor and little laser guns until we drop the Baneblade on to the field.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:31
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give them time and they'll even accuse Roberts of being Smart heh
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Jan 10, 2016 20:31
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Mirificus posted:
I love that defense. None of this important to me, I'm as cool as a cucumber when I write angry diatribes, and I do them all in like 5 seconds so it's all nothing to me.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:34
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Daztek posted:Yeah, the first post. First post is only a few months back, people have been saying this is a scam on the forums for years haven't they?
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Jan 10, 2016 20:34
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Botnit posted:Is there a wiki for this poo poo from the beginning? All I know about it is it's a huge scam, I deserve to know more. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/14695-Star-Citizen-Controversy-Reaches-a-Boiling-Point http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/14715-CIG-Employees-Talk-Star-Citizen-and-the-State-of-the-Company
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Jan 10, 2016 20:36
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Tippis posted:You also generally have to render parts of the scene that could otherwise be culled. It's a mirror; it shows the stuff that's in the opposite direction of what you're looking at — stuff that now has to be included and calculated where before it could just be instantly ignored. Put the game camera on the mirror surface and have it take a picture!
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Jan 10, 2016 20:36
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sanctimoniousqfd posted:The ring animations aren't client side because you are able to fly through the rings, so there is a moving collision volume that needs to support physical interaction with a network replicated object, meaning it too needs to be replicated. Nothing would break "immersion" (heh) so much as a connie flying full pelt through a pylon like it doesn't exist because the rotation is at a different phase in a peer's simulation. It's a very typically CIG problem. The rings rotate because it looks good, it has no gameplay reason, but because of "immersion" they need to have a server overhead for the once in a million years when you fly into them. Usually you'd have static rings then if you find yourself with spare server resources (lol) you can add additional network packets and server overhead to cope with them rotating - but no, it's CIG, so we're going to have a fully animated and network synchronised dynamic station structure purely because it looks cool when 90% of the mechanics that will cause actual server overhead haven't even been written yet. Style over substance: the video game.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:39
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AP posted:The whole thing looks like a mess of spaghetti code to me, I mean how difficult is it not to recreate the avatar model immediately after death for a split second? Making the engine do something is difficult you'd think not making it do something is easier and this would be one of the first things you fix. But it's pretty obvious they ditched the whole FPS branch of the code. I guess that's possibly why they had the outside developer stop work on it to bring the code "in house" and would also explain why the outside developer made statements that sound like it was an unexpected and confusing decision. It probably made no sense to stop development when they did, unless they realised they would never use any of it making the whole exercise a waste of time and money.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:39
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AP posted:http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/14695-Star-Citizen-Controversy-Reaches-a-Boiling-Point Thanks broseph, see you dudes in 1,200 pages
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Jan 10, 2016 20:40
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Khanstant posted:Put the game camera on the mirror surface and have it take a picture! Sure. It's not that it can't be done — and even fairly easily in most modern engines — it's that it generally costs too much to be worth the bother. You'll notice that if and when they show up, it's often in conveniently small and contained environments that are easy to render regardless. There's also the issue of showing the player character, which means modelling the player character, both of which some games prefer not to if at all possible.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:41
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Doesn't this basically show that warping is in fact a loading screen?
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Jan 10, 2016 20:42
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