|
After two rounds switching the paradigm fills up your ap gauge, so you should do that all the time and no, rav is good for staggering but after that you don't need it and want to just pound as much as possible as fast as possible which is what com is for (also debuffs)
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 13:28 |
|
|
You'll want to at least use SAB/RAV/RAV to start battles, as SAB both slows stagger decay (like COM) and boosts stagger percentage (like RAV) while sticking on useful debuffs (Libra helps a lot in having the SAB not waste turns on debuffs the enemy isn't vulnerable to). e: corn in the bible posted:After two rounds switching the paradigm fills up your ap gauge, so you should do that all the time Some pro strats involve having two of the same paradigm just to take advantage of this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
dasmause posted:I was under impression that COM/RAV/RAV is maximum damage since increasing stagger % increases damage Role bonuses, having a COM out makes everyone do more damage, having 3 COMs out makes everyone do more more more damage and of course they're all in the damage dealing job, this outweighs increasing stagger after a point. However, multiple COMs will target different enemies, while RAVs will gang up on a COM's target, so the above only applies when there's only one target.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
If you're coming out of SMT you already know that buffs and debuffs are god. Debuffs always. Offensive buffs are most useful against trash (I think you're stuck with Sazh for most of the game if you want to take advantage of those), but you'll get mileage out of any buff during boss fights.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:10
|
|
|
Man I don't remember any of this poo poo. Maybe that's why the final dungeon kicked my rear end so hard. Was any of this stuff in XIII-2? Because by the end I barely bothered with COM. RAV Lightning and Serah did crazy damage.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:12
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Man I don't remember any of this poo poo. Maybe that's why the final dungeon kicked my rear end so hard. You don't remember because 13-2 is a piss easy game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:14
|
|
|
True but it was also fun, unlike XIII. IMO anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:16
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Man I don't remember any of this poo poo. Maybe that's why the final dungeon kicked my rear end so hard. FF13's gated levels keeps you on a razor edge of balance and if you don't engage in the paradigm system you are in for a bad time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:16
|
|
|
zedprime posted:If you're coming out of SMT you already know that buffs and debuffs are god. Debuffs always. Offensive buffs are most useful against trash (I think you're stuck with Sazh for most of the game if you want to take advantage of those), but you'll get mileage out of any buff during boss fights. Yeah buffs are god, but I don't buff up in random encounters and that threw me for a loop I guess I'll go read up on paradigms and git gud
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:21
|
|
|
zedprime posted:If you keep up with spending your leveling points and pokemon in 13-2, you cream everything in com rav rav before you have a chance to do anything with paradigms. I mean, I understood the basics but I never knew this stuff about COM increasing damage for everyone and that kinda thing. I think my biggest problem my first time through XIII was not appreciating Saboteur. I eventually learned the power of SAB though when Poison killed the final boss without me having to do anything else except defend and heal. It was amazing. I'm hoping my next run, with the knowledge that debuffs are amazing, I can beat Barthandelus I in a reasonable amount of time. That zero stars still irks me.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:23
|
|
|
Since there's no MP there's no reason not to buff/debuff in every fight Especially since debuffs do damage, which is a really smart design decision to add incentive for a player to use them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:24
|
|
|
I have noticed a lot of the people that dislike FFXIII also happen to have zero understanding of the battle system
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:26
|
|
|
Games like X and XIII should just throw up a neon sign at the players saying "BUFFS AND DEBUFFS ARE ACTUALLY REALLY GOOD, DUDE!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:28
|
|
|
Augus posted:Games like X and XIII should just throw up a neon sign at the players saying "BUFFS AND DEBUFFS ARE ACTUALLY REALLY GOOD, DUDE!" 
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:32
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Man I don't remember any of this poo poo. Maybe that's why the final dungeon kicked my rear end so hard. To be fair, none of this is really spelled out in-game. The tutorials it does give you don't cover the information you really need, and most people don't get anything out of the learn-by-playing sections. You didn't think they dropped you with just Vanille and Sazh with no Commando to be dicks, did you? That is the Saboteur tutorial, meant to show you the importance of debuffs and that they slow down the chain.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:42
|
|
|
Help Im Alive posted:I have noticed a lot of the people that dislike FFXIII also happen to have zero understanding of the battle system How much of these important tricks are in the tutorials? I don't remember reading in-game about SAB affecting the stagger gauge/percentage or the role buffs or switching paradigms to reset ATB or a lot of these other tricks that I ended up learning through the internet, though to be fair I'm pretty sure some of this at least are in the tutorial boxes. The big thing is the battle system relying on little details here and there that are easy to overlook yet make your life so much easier if you know of and take advantage of them. Plus to be fair when the hell did anybody ever use de/buffs besides Haste and Slow in a FF game, even games like X where they're useful they aren't nearly as necessary as they are in 13. Though it's still hilarious how many people just roll COM/RAV/MED as their only paradigm and complain about the speed of battles. There's missing the little details and then ignoring how the entire loving battle system works.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:44
|
|
|
Artix posted:To be fair, none of this is really spelled out in-game. The tutorials it does give you don't cover the information you really need, and most people don't get anything out of the learn-by-playing sections. You didn't think they dropped you with just Vanille and Sazh with no Commando to be dicks, did you? That is the Saboteur tutorial, meant to show you the importance of debuffs and that they slow down the chain. This explains why I never could get a decent rank against the Scalebeasts at least. I'll keep this all in mind when I next play XIII. Although my complaints about XIII had zero to do with the battle system.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 17:51
|
|
|
I like the battle system of 13, really hate everything else about the structure of the game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:07
|
|
|
Augus posted:Games like X and XIII should just throw up a neon sign at the players saying "BUFFS AND DEBUFFS ARE ACTUALLY REALLY GOOD, DUDE!" Everyone is so used to debuffs being a waste of a turn on trash enemies and not working at all on bosses that when they are actually useful no one bothers anyway. Dunno about buffs, people are always dumb about those.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
12 did a great job of letting debuffs be useful against bosses and hunts. Unfortunately, your best choice for the first half of the game is to just get really long Quickening chains.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:21
|
|
|
Mega64 posted:How much of these important tricks are in the tutorials? I don't remember reading in-game about SAB affecting the stagger gauge/percentage or the role buffs or switching paradigms to reset ATB or a lot of these other tricks that I ended up learning through the internet, though to be fair I'm pretty sure some of this at least are in the tutorial boxes. The big thing is the battle system relying on little details here and there that are easy to overlook yet make your life so much easier if you know of and take advantage of them. Plus to be fair when the hell did anybody ever use de/buffs besides Haste and Slow in a FF game, even games like X where they're useful they aren't nearly as necessary as they are in 13. I didn't really understand the magnitude of role bonuses until 13-2 makes you take them as perks, but I still understood the various mixtures of roles in making paradigms and how stuff like 3x sen and 3x com are silly powerful just from messing around during the 2 member stuff and bringing that knowledge forward when it sets you loose with a full party.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:22
|
|
|
zedprime posted:There's very little in the tutorial text beside "hey you got a new role, it does things like this!" All the fiddly bits are supposed to be self taught from experimenting with the various 2 character combos to find the trick to get 5 stars in the combat in their segments. Probably explains it, I didn't really notice that kind of stuff at all when I played. I mean, I'm all in favor of games going "show, don't tell" with game mechanics and such, but I think FF13 was probably too subtle in that regard.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:Everyone is so used to debuffs being a waste of a turn on trash enemies and not working at all on bosses that when they are actually useful no one bothers anyway. Dunno about buffs, people are always dumb about those. I don't know about that. In a lot of games ailment-afflicting spells tend to only be useful when you have a guide handy to tell you what the boss' one weird trick is, but buffs/debuffs are always at least somewhat handy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Help Im Alive posted:I have noticed a lot of the people that dislike FFXIII also happen to have zero understanding of the battle system I understood the battle system and still didn't have any fun. Once I got to the part where you're in this huge expansive field and all the encounters took forever to get through, I realized how bored I was. I wasn't really in danger of dying for the most part, they all just took forever. It's not hard to realize SAB/RAV/RAV -> RAV/COM/COM is the way to go against any big enemy/boss.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:33
|
|
|
Out of curiosity, who are the best characters in XIII combat-wise? I don't think it really matters in the main game but for optional stuff do some parties just flatout beat others? I hear Lightning is really powerful because she operates well as several things.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Mega64 posted:How much of these important tricks are in the tutorials? That's just the thing though, all the sections through Palumpolum are the tutorial. Like if someone went through all those Sazh/Vanille sections and didn't figure out that SAB/RAV staggers things faster than COM/RAV, or that COM/RAV kills things faster than COM/SAB when all the debuffs have been applied, or that Haste and Vigilance are really loving good, then I'm not sure you can actually blame the game for that. The fact that Final Fantasy XIII teaches you how to play through good encounter design and intentional limitation of your available party members is one of the things I really like about it. Yes, it does take too long for the game to give you full control over your party, but if they gave full control too early you would probably have way more people complaining about hp-sponge enemies and trying to go through the game with busted paradigms that don't work (or rather, using them incredibly inefficiently). Although they should of put in a text box that said something like "If you don't get 5 stars, you did something wrong" for the types of people who would ignore them entirely.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Crab Destroyer posted:Although they should of put in a text box that said something like "If you don't get 5 stars, you did something wrong" for the types of people who would ignore them entirely. When I played through XIII and kept not getting 5 stars, people just told me ranking doesn't matter because I was frustrated because the game was saying I sucked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Out of curiosity, who are the best characters in XIII combat-wise? I don't think it really matters in the main game but for optional stuff do some parties just flatout beat others? I hear Lightning is really powerful because she operates well as several things. I would recommend Fang/Lightning/Vanille, Fang/Lightning/Hope or Fang/Vanille/Hope. Hope has the best MAG in the game and is clutch as a SAB and RAV. Vanille is great as MED, SYN and RAV. Fang is great at COM and SEN. Lightning is great at COM and RAV. Always use Fang though. She owns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:When I played through XIII and kept not getting 5 stars, people just told me ranking doesn't matter because I was frustrated because the game was saying I sucked. Are you sure they were talking about XIII? I know that's true for Lightning Returns, which is particularly jarring if you're coming straight from XIII, but the ranking definitely matters in XIII. If you are going up against the same or similar groups of enemies and consistently getting less than 5 stars it means there is something you should be doing different. You'll probably get less than 5 when encountering a new enemy, but you should take that as a moment to reflect on what you did wrong and figure out how to get 5 stars next time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:48
|
|
|
Srice posted:Since there's no MP there's no reason not to buff/debuff in every fight That's not entirely true. Buffs and debuffs don't have an MP cost, but they still have the opportunity cost of not just attacking the enemy. In long fights like bosses you definitely want to buff/debuff, but for shorter trash fights it's usually not worth the time, unless it's a really good buff like enthunder when fighting robots.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:That's not entirely true. Buffs and debuffs don't have an MP cost, but they still have the opportunity cost of not just attacking the enemy. In long fights like bosses you definitely want to buff/debuff, but for shorter trash fights it's usually not worth the time, unless it's a really good buff like enthunder when fighting robots. I think that's true for buffs, if you're using Hope. But Haste and Vigilance are so good that if you have a party with Sazh it might still be worth using buffs in any fight that will take longer than 30s. Debuffs are so good that I can only think of one reason to stop using them (your SAB has stopped casting because they can't apply any more debuffs). Blackbelt Bobman posted:Always use Fang though. She owns. This is also true. Crab Destroyer fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jan 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:58
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Out of curiosity, who are the best characters in XIII combat-wise? I don't think it really matters in the main game but for optional stuff do some parties just flatout beat others? I hear Lightning is really powerful because she operates well as several things. Lightning, Fang, and Hope is the best party in the game. Fang is a good sentinel and the best commando, Hope is the best medic and ravager, and Lightning is pretty good at everything (although not the best at anything). Vanille and Sazh can sub in for Hope as necessary at different points in the game (Sazh before Hope gets Haste, Vanille for anything you need a good Sab for, etc) and Snow can take Fang's spot if she's not cutting it in sentinel, but generally speaking that's the ideal party. That said, you can run just about anything except Hope/Vanille/Sazh and be perfectly fine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 18:58
|
|
|
I ran Lightning/Vanille/Hope for the story and got 5* on the end boss first try. But I swapped Vanille for Fang post game and proceeded to wreck everything on my way to 1000 gamerscore.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:06
|
|
|
Crab Destroyer posted:Are you sure they were talking about XIII? I know that's true for Lightning Returns, which is particularly jarring if you're coming straight from XIII, but the ranking definitely matters in XIII. If you are going up against the same or similar groups of enemies and consistently getting less than 5 stars it means there is something you should be doing different. You'll probably get less than 5 when encountering a new enemy, but you should take that as a moment to reflect on what you did wrong and figure out how to get 5 stars next time. Yep. I know it definitely wasn't for LR because I only played a couple hours of that. Getting 5 stars against normal enemies wasn't the problem, it was mostly bosses. It's embarrassing to remember how long Barthandelus 1 took me. I don't think on average I did too badly....it's been so long I can't recall for certain, though. Artix posted:Lightning, Fang, and Hope is the best party in the game. Fang is a good sentinel and the best commando, Hope is the best medic and ravager, and Lightning is pretty good at everything (although not the best at anything). Vanille and Sazh can sub in for Hope as necessary at different points in the game (Sazh before Hope gets Haste, Vanille for anything you need a good Sab for, etc) and Snow can take Fang's spot if she's not cutting it in sentinel, but generally speaking that's the ideal party. Hm, the party I used for my run was Snow, Hope and Vanille. Dunno how well that would work for optional stuff, though. Besides, I'll probably try to use a different party this time around. Although I am getting a bit ahead of myself. Even after I start the game I'll still have a year or two before I can actually choose my party.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:09
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:When I played through XIII and kept not getting 5 stars, people just told me ranking doesn't matter because I was frustrated because the game was saying I sucked. It's not that you did something wrong, more like you could have done something to win faster. If you survived a tough boss and you're happy to be alive then the ranking doesn't matter at all on its own, but if you're fighting the same trash enemies over and over again it really helps to iterate on your strategy and know that you're going as fast as you can. Edit: a lot of people complained that small encounters would take too long, but that might have been avoided if the game was more clear about saying "going fast is YOUR job, that's what I'm asking YOU to do". Tempo 119 fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jan 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:20
|
|
|
FactsAreUseless posted:12 did a great job of letting debuffs be useful against bosses and hunts. Unfortunately, your best choice for the first half of the game is to just get really long Quickening chains.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:32
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Yep. I know it definitely wasn't for LR because I only played a couple hours of that. Getting 5 stars against normal enemies wasn't the problem, it was mostly bosses. It's embarrassing to remember how long Barthandelus 1 took me. I thought you were talking about normal enemies. It doesn't matter for bosses, and especially not Barthandelus 1. In the case of bosses, I think it's mostly to show you that it didn't have to take as long as it did and that if you were to retry with your new knowledge of the boss and it's patterns you could do much better. Pretty much everybody I know who played the game long enough to fight Barthandelus 2 got 0 stars on the first fight and 3-5 on the second when they had a better grasp 3-role paradigms and previous knowledge of Barty's attacks. Snow/Hope/Vanille isn't bad, but I think it could be better if you were willing to replace a couple of them. Who to replace though depends entirely on who you want to keep in the party and who you're trying to avoid using. If you're trying to avoid using Lightning entirely I prefer Fang/Hope/Vanille, Fang/Sazh/Vanille, and Snow/Sazh/Vanille. I think Hope is actually the worst of the three medics for the main game since he learns the medic spells way slower than Vanille and Lightning.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:32
|
|
|
Crab Destroyer posted:Snow/Hope/Vanille isn't bad, but I think it could be better if you were willing to replace a couple of them. Who to replace though depends entirely on who you want to keep in the party and who you're trying to avoid using. If you're trying to avoid using Lightning entirely I prefer Fang/Hope/Vanille, Fang/Sazh/Vanille, and Snow/Sazh/Vanille. I think Hope is actually the worst of the three medics for the main game since he learns the medic spells way slower than Vanille and Lightning. Vanille is better in that she gets Curaja at the end of tier 8 instead of the start of tier 9 but Lightning doesn't get the Curasa line at all, making her a really bad medic by the end of the game. She's great as a backup, but that's true of all her roles. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:35
|
|
|
Artix posted:Vanille is better in that she gets Curaja at the end of tier 8 instead of the start of tier 9 but Lightning doesn't get the Curasa line at all, making her a really bad medic by the end of the game. She's great as a backup, but that's true of all her roles. For some reason I thought she learned Cura earlier than Hope, but it turns out the only Medic spells she learns faster than him are Esuna and Raise. So yeah, unless you're using her to Raise people a lot in Gran Pulse (I know I was) Hope is probably a better medic even for the main game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 13:28 |
|
|
Crab Destroyer posted:I thought you were talking about normal enemies. It doesn't matter for bosses, and especially not Barthandelus 1. In the case of bosses, I think it's mostly to show you that it didn't have to take as long as it did and that if you were to retry with your new knowledge of the boss and it's patterns you could do much better. Pretty much everybody I know who played the game long enough to fight Barthandelus 2 got 0 stars on the first fight and 3-5 on the second when they had a better grasp 3-role paradigms and previous knowledge of Barty's attacks. I don't like Lightning and I'm indifferent to Fang. Fang has the "latecomer" problem for me. By the time she was playable I already had characters I liked and she was just....unnecessary. On a second playthrough this might be less of an issue, though. I'd be up for using Sazh more though. See, another reason I want to use different characters though is to hear the different character-specific dialogue. This is something I've come to realize that I really like. All the voiced Final Fantasies, with the exception of XII, have used the voice-acting in battles and it's really cool. It does a great job of making normal trash random encounters seem like something more. It gives them character or story building purpose. Like in X, a lot of battle dialogue is dependent on story progression like Tidus saying" I'm a guardian now so watch out!" orYuna making sad, confused noises when you bring her into battle right before she confesses she wants to marry Seymour. Then of course there's inter-party dialogue like Tidus saying "don't break any bones, old man!" after Auron joins the party, to which Auron hmphs at him. There's a ton more of this too, some of which I never even saw outside of some LPs I've watched, like Wakka and Lulu having various back-and-forths. YRP have a ton of this in X-2 of course as well. Bringing it back to XIII though, I really liked that, not only did the two teams have their own special quotes, Snow and Hope also got special dialogue for switching paradigms or when one of them is hurt or whatever. I don't know if every pair has unique dialogue but I'd like to see. I also really liked there was special dialogue for certain boss battles when you switched paradigms. I just really like this and the fact XII doesn't do it is one of its bigger flaws for me. It certainly does its already rather bland playable cast no favors. Even if you don't like the writing or characters in X and XIII, you have to appreciate the effort they made with this kinda thing. The idea is most definitely solid and one that should be continued. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jan 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2016 19:52
|
|