|
dyzzy posted:Breaking news, Chris Roberts reveals himself to be XCOM 2's true lead developer. Says people will enjoy "the new tactical guerrilla warfare module" set within the Star Citizen universe. Chris Roberts announces Star Citizen will have the deepest character customization ever seen in any game, featuring dozens of different blowout haircut styles, hundreds of sunglasses from vintage era, and the ability to save and 3d print any character you created in its life-size scale. Get your Space Admiral's Cufflinks for only 1199 $ now!
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 05:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:32 |
|
|
CJ posted:People play these games for the challenge of beating the game's systems. Most people will use unfun tactics if it's the optimal strategy, especially in a game with permadeath. When the optimal strategy is unfun it leaves you with the choice of knowingly using a less optimal strategy or doing something boring, and either option detracts from the game. It's the job of the game designer to ensure that the optimal strategy is something that's enjoyable to play. Yeah. I think more single-player devs need to emulate the mindset of Brogue in terms of these sorts of things: A Brogue Patch Note posted:Staffs recharge with a slight degree of randomness so players will not be coerced into counting turns to derive the charge level of an unidentified staff. I think "coerced" is the right word to frame the discussion of unfun-but-optimal mechanics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 05:36
|
|
|
CJ posted:People play these games for the challenge of beating the game's systems. Most people will use unfun tactics if it's the optimal strategy, especially in a game with permadeath. When the optimal strategy is unfun it leaves you with the choice of knowingly using a less optimal strategy or doing something boring, and either option detracts from the game. It's the job of the game designer to ensure that the optimal strategy is something that's enjoyable to play. The thing is, judging from comments on a variety of sites on XCOM news, lots of players think things like "not uncovering more map with your last soldier" or "always trying to grab high cover" are boring-but-optimal strategies. People have different lines for defining boring-but-optimal. Personally, it kind of mystifies me that some people think spending maybe a couple of extra turns to set up a sweet, perfect ambush is somehow boring. There are still lots of things to worry about if you insist on going slow-and-pro all the time, like getting flanked by a patrol you were unaware of or the mission timer. I guess I just expect that in a turn-based strategy game, a measure of patience and planning might go into optimal strategies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 07:52
|
|
|
Ceramic Shot posted:The thing is, judging from comments on a variety of sites on XCOM news, lots of players think things like "not uncovering more map with your last soldier" or "always trying to grab high cover" are boring-but-optimal strategies. People have different lines for defining boring-but-optimal. There's "a couple of extra turns to set up a sweet, perfect ambush", and then there's Beagle spamming the overwatch key for 10 turns until the patrol finally moves and spots his one person standing out in the open so he can get an extra turn of combat in when they trigger it. That's not 'patience and planning', it's loving boring.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:02
|
|
|
It would be okay if the enemy scrambles if you initiate on them but stands out of cover and just shoots at someone they discover.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:08
|
|
|
An easy fix would be that if you reveal on the last move of your turn, you get another turn immediately. So then there'd be no benefit to having them patrol into you, you still get your opening salvo plus an immediate turn either way. Or maybe the enemy just doesn't shoot at you on that reveal turn, just moves to better cover and overwatches and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:17
|
|
|
Junpei posted:Did some research on the new enemies. This is somewhat incorrect, Acid Grenades are priority #1 counter to Sectopod/heavily armored robo friends. Maybe they're immune to the acid effect itself but the damage of the grenade and the shred still owns iirc. necrobobsledder posted:They should nickname that tactic "Beaglewatching" to make it more clear that it's associated with a specific kind of overwatch method. I like things being named after me but this is just the Overwatch meta we've had since EU, except with Concealment / Phantom Ranger as a scout. If you take a Concealment Scout in your squad in Long War you can replicate this exact tactic without even playing XCOM 2. This is why I always tried to rush Concealment Scouts in B15, because they're loving Broken and I Don't Know How Some People Didn't Realise How loving Broken Stealth Is In This loving Game. Fun fact: Back when I was playing B15 my theorycrafted strongest squad ever was like all Rocketeers/Medics/Infantry with every single one of them specced into pure Overwatch builds, and a Concealment Scout. Lure pods into overwatch traps 100% of the time with your Scout stealth and kill them before they even move. Fast forward a few months and now here we are in XCOM 2, with the main differences being a) the pods patrol much more logically in XCOM 2 so it's easier and b) now we get to see how Jake Solomon would balance against it instead of JohnnyLump. Aside: Consider that squad for a second. Treat yourself. Like 7 Overwatch Opportunist troops each getting 2 to 3 overwatches. 14 to 21 high accuracy high crit shots before the enemy even gets to react. Mm. CJ posted:People play these games for the challenge of beating the game's systems. Most people will use unfun tactics if it's the optimal strategy, especially in a game with permadeath. When the optimal strategy is unfun it leaves you with the choice of knowingly using a less optimal strategy or doing something boring, and either option detracts from the game. It's the job of the game designer to ensure that the optimal strategy is something that's enjoyable to play. This is very true. I think it's easy to read that and come away with "spergs cant play the game for fun" but I feel it's more important to emphasize that a game like XCOM has so much of its fun wrapped up in the challenge - in my opinion anyway. Not because I'm a grognard who has a panic attack any time I do something non-optimal - quite the opposite, really - but because XCOM is a game I find amazing for its immersion, tension, the attachment to its troops and the way those attachments are toyed with and tested through the remarkable lethality and uncaring nature of its combat. So if I'm sitting there getting my rear end kicked in a really tough mission and I'm doing everything I can to stay alive, I'm in the zone. But if I'm getting my rear end kicked thinking "this never would've happened if I'd just overwatch creeped for ten turns instead", it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth and takes me out of the fun. So CJ has written a Very Good Post here. Ceramic Shot posted:The thing is, judging from comments on a variety of sites on XCOM news, lots of players think things like "not uncovering more map with your last soldier" or "always trying to grab high cover" are boring-but-optimal strategies. People have different lines for defining boring-but-optimal. Let's be real though - waiting until a patrol turns around and paths into you is really, really time consuming and takes an unnecessarily long amount of time to pull off when pod AI starts walking away from you instead of revealing you. Ideally you spot enemies, you make a plan and you enact that plan in a few turns max. I would prefer an XCOM 2 where I don't need to spend 10 turns so that I can make the optimal ambush give me the best chance for mission success. I think too many people are focusing on the initial Concealment ambush though. What's really broken is Phantom Ranger scout + constant overwatch trapping. That's what needs to be fixed most. EDIT: Just thinking about that loving overwatch squad makes me want to load up B15 again. Seriously, I always death spiralled or stopped having fun before I ever got that squad actually assembled on stream/vid, but playing XCOM 2 and seeing the slaughter has reminded me how goddamn good it would be. Beagle fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:18
|
|
|
Strobe posted:There's "a couple of extra turns to set up a sweet, perfect ambush", and then there's Beagle spamming the overwatch key for 10 turns until the patrol finally moves and spots his one person standing out in the open so he can get an extra turn of combat in when they trigger it. Yeah, fair enough. Sorry if I sounded dumb or condescending. I think I'm also just worried if they missed abuses this obvious this far into development, the nerf will be something knee-jerky and lame.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:30
|
|
|
Ceramic Shot posted:Yeah, fair enough. Sorry if I sounded dumb or condescending. I think I'm also just worried if they missed abuses this obvious this far into development, the nerf will be something knee-jerky and lame. I would be incredibly worried about this but I have faith in Jakey and the team to pull out something that doesn't screw over the rest of the game while nixing the tactic. Worst case they've said it's toggleable in the .ini for those who want the previous functionality but I'm kinda excited to see what they've done.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:39
|
|
|
I think the obvious fix would be for Itchy Trigger Tentacle to be on by default.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:42
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:I think the obvious fix would be for Itchy Trigger Tentacle to be on by default. This is the obvious fix but it destroys the game's balance for nerfing a single strat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:51
|
|
|
Ceramic Shot posted:Yeah, fair enough. Sorry if I sounded dumb or condescending. I think I'm also just worried if they missed abuses this obvious this far into development, the nerf will be something knee-jerky and lame. Agreed. In general, modifying gameplay elements 2 weeks before launch seems like a supremely bad idea.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:58
|
|
|
This feels almost exactly like the argument over Darkest Dungeon's corpses mechanic. I hope it doesn't turn into the same tornado of whining that happened there... I personally feel that anything that makes the game more tactical is automatically a good thing, even if it makes the game harder.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 08:59
|
|
|
It
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 09:12
|
|
|
Beagle posted:I would be incredibly worried about this but I have faith in Jakey and the team to pull out something that doesn't screw over the rest of the game while nixing the tactic. Worst case they've said it's toggleable in the .ini for those who want the previous functionality but I'm kinda excited to see what they've done. I don't know, I enjoy watching you miss that overwatch trigger by one tile several turns in a row. Besides, from what I've seen, a lot of the missions have a time limit, which I imagine will only make it harder as you go along in the game. Although we haven't seen any particularly late game scenarios, I suspect "exploiting" the stealth at the start is increasingly going to become a bigger risk as you progress in the game. It may gain you a combat turn, but you end up wasting a lot of potential turns which would allow you to take safer measures throughout the whole map, rather than the first encounter. I mean, from what I've seen you play recently, there has been a couple of moments where you had to take huge risks to finish the objective on just a couple of turns. Boris for an instance, who I'm sure would still be alive to this day had it not been for your over watch baiting. Edit: What I'm trying to say is that I doubt there is going to be a "fix" for it in the near future, it's a legitimate strategy, and the late game will most likely present several obstacles concerning this strat. Schnugaf fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 10:42
|
|
|
The best example of people using unfun optimal tactics is the entire history of World of Warcraft. My favourite example in XCOM was when Beagle spent 15 minutes sending a skyranger across the globe so he could build more weapons for the temple ship mission. I laughed out loud when i saw that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 11:03
|
|
|
I'm not sure why people are focusing on the team concealment overwatch trap when a concealment scout lets you do this on demand, safer and faster because the ai seems to be more predictable once they're alert. Stacking the two concealment perks might even be worth it if you need the ranger for harder pods.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 11:25
|
|
|
CJ posted:The best example of people using unfun optimal tactics is the entire history of World of Warcraft. Whilst a great 15 minutes of riveting XCOM action (WHAT IF HE CLICKS ASSAULT?!) that was hardly optimal. That was a situation that only Beags would get into in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 11:36
|
|
|
Firaxis has bought in the Long War dudes to have some mods ready at launch. Which is pretty cool.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:05
|
|
|
Have we gotten any details about how labs/workshops work? I recall seeing the workshop tooltip, and it said it allowed engineers to staff adjacent spaces with gremlins, but I couldn't figure out whether a gremlin was equivalent to an engineer in terms of work performed, how many gremlins one engineer could staff, whether gremlins could clear out alien machinery, etc...
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:08
|
|
|
Cheston posted:Have we gotten any details about how labs/workshops work? I recall seeing the workshop tooltip, and it said it allowed engineers to staff adjacent spaces with gremlins, but I couldn't figure out whether a gremlin was equivalent to an engineer in terms of work performed, how many gremlins one engineer could staff, whether gremlins could clear out alien machinery, etc... IIRC Gremlins provide a bouns to whatever they're stationed to, sort of like extending your functionality before you get full engineers and scientists. For staffing one workshop, you get two additional slotable gremlins to put in adjacent spots.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:17
|
|
|
The Kins posted:Firaxis has bought in the Long War dudes to have some mods ready at launch. Which is pretty cool. I'm hoping that if it turns out well, they'll contract them longer-term. Not buy out/absorb the team, but give them work and support enough to fund their standalone dreams.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:20
|
|
|
Dominic White posted:I'm hoping that if it turns out well, they'll contract them longer-term. Not buy out/absorb the team, but give them work and support enough to fund their standalone dreams. That's probably the idea behind it, or at least give them more investor fuel with "we have official mods for XCOM 2 that were endorsed by the developer." I called this WAY back in the thread too, XCOM 2 is going to be fine and dandy for your standard player. The LW team will make their set of mods, Beagle and others will play those, most will play standard XCOM 2, and everyone will be happy. Who knows, maybe the LW team won't be as masochistic with a properly moddable game?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:35
|
|
|
FraudulentEconomics posted:Who knows, maybe the LW team won't be as masochistic with a properly moddable game?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:43
|
|
|
Long War has a billion really awesome ideas, which makes it really frustrating that they insist on wrapping their awesome idea ingredients in a tortilla made of tedium. Ideally XCOM 2's mod friendly setup will mean that there will be lots of toggles and options to enable the cool poo poo in a hypothetical XCOM 2 Longer War while getting rid of the cruft.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:49
|
|
|
Beagle posted:
I think the reason people are focusing on the initial Concealment ambush is that fixing the strategy Phantom Ranger lets you do basically boils down to "remove the Phantom perk or change how the game works so being able to scout ahead isn't such a huge advantage". So I guess it's a good thing the Long War guys are making some launch mods because either they're going to give you a masochistic replacement perk for Phantom or they'll end up having doing the latter just out of curiosity if they could do it. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:57
|
|
|
Y'all know that there's about a million options in LW to make it shorter, easier, less random, more random, etc? By default it's geared towards players that have already mastered the base game (as in the kind of people who know enough to hex edit it to hell and back), but you can tone it down a shitton in v1.0. Start with 8-man squads with boosted, equalized stats against smaller squads of aliens if you really want. There's even a 'make air war easier' button.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 14:58
|
|
|
How the gently caress does "mastered the base game" translate in any way to "able to hex edit to hell and back"?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 15:02
|
|
|
Misphrased, sorry - I only meant to imply they're the kind of fans that know the game well enough to go that extra mile to start customizing it to their tastes. They're going to be hardcore if they're that driven to change it. But they also put options in there to tone things down as much as you please. The default is Normal mode in LW is aimed at those who figured out all the safe strategies in Classic vanilla and rolled through without losing more than a couple troops.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 15:14
|
|
|
FraudulentEconomics posted:IIRC Gremlins provide a bouns to whatever they're stationed to, sort of like extending your functionality before you get full engineers and scientists. For staffing one workshop, you get two additional slotable gremlins to put in adjacent spots. I'm confused about the "adjacent spots" bit, and I know the UI does say that, but the dude in an LP I watched placed his Gremlin in a room 2 slots away.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 15:25
|
|
|
The Kins posted:Firaxis has bought in the Long War dudes to have some mods ready at launch. Which is pretty cool. LongWar wasn't my thing but this is really cool and the perfect way to promote your openness towards mods. How much did Beyond Earth's expansion improve the base game? I want to take advantage of the firaxis bundle but I already have all the heavy hitters besides beyond earth which was pretty mediore.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 15:33
|
|
|
Kanos posted:Long War has a billion really awesome ideas, which makes it really frustrating that they insist on wrapping their awesome idea ingredients in a tortilla made of tedium. Ideally XCOM 2's mod friendly setup will mean that there will be lots of toggles and options to enable the cool poo poo in a hypothetical XCOM 2 Longer War while getting rid of the cruft. Yes, XCOM 2's modular nature will make it 10x times easier to grab whatever you like from Long War and keeping the rest same as vanilla. I hope LW devs realize they are making a mod for XCOM 2, and not just carrying over their old mod to the sequel. It would be a shame if they are not going to consider common complaints of LW and rethink their approach. Some of the improvements made by Firaxis are better than their counterparts in LW. One good example is the armor rating and how much more intuitive and fair it is than the one in Long War, which was whole load of bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 15:35
|
|
|
The one thing long war did was to open up more modding options than vanilla Xcom, so you could relatively easily change the game by just overwriting a number in a ini file. So you can just edit the game if you find it too hard. On the Xcom2 mods, I highly doubt they are making a "Long War 2", if anything, I'm expecting things like UI mods, re-textures maybe porting over some of their voicepacks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 15:43
|
|
|
DrManiac posted:How much did Beyond Earth's expansion improve the base game? I want to take advantage of the firaxis bundle but I already have all the heavy hitters besides beyond earth which was pretty mediore. Everything it does is good, and it has some nice ideas, but it's just not well-balanced and doesn't do enough to elevate the game. You're okay to skip it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 15:50
|
|
|
Beagle posted:I think too many people are focusing on the initial Concealment ambush though. What's really broken is Phantom Ranger scout + constant overwatch trapping. That's what needs to be fixed most. Glad to hear this will be as OP as I thought it'd be. Or yeah...broken as the case may be. Still, only on non-timed missions for all this. I think there really will be a pretty dramatic difference between missions that always have some sort of time requirement, and ones where you can just overwatch cheese in all the different ways you can be. Fister Roboto posted:I think the obvious fix would be for Itchy Trigger Tentacle to be on by default. Orrrrr...it could be exactly the idea proposed ITT earlier, which is also pretty cool. Right after the initial ambush, they get to run into cover AND go on overwatch with that ability to fire on any action, hampering your second volley a fair bit and making it risky. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jan 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 16:22
|
|
|
Beagle posted:I think too many people are focusing on the initial Concealment ambush though. What's really broken is Phantom Ranger scout + constant overwatch trapping. That's what needs to be fixed most. A very simple nerf would be Phantom only providing concealment at the start of missions where you would otherwise have none, and the ranger losing it when the team goes loud. You'd still have utility in scouting for retaliation missions etc. but lose the "cheese." Although a full playthrough is necessary to really form an opinion on if a nerf is even necessary. OW trapping through a whole mission requires everything going right all the time so that you don't need the ranger's firepower, and XCOM has a tendency to not cooperate on that front. Mimetic skn/concealment in LW allowed you to scout and use the squad's full firepower in every engagement, whereas even a full stealth ranger can break cover only once before losing the scouting ability.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 16:57
|
|
|
brakeless posted:A very simple nerf would be Phantom only providing concealment at the start of missions where you would otherwise have none, and the ranger losing it when the team goes loud. You'd still have utility in scouting for retaliation missions etc. but lose the "cheese." Although a full playthrough is necessary to really form an opinion on if a nerf is even necessary. OW trapping through a whole mission requires everything going right all the time so that you don't need the ranger's firepower, and XCOM has a tendency to not cooperate on that front. Mimetic skn/concealment in LW allowed you to scout and use the squad's full firepower in every engagement, whereas even a full stealth ranger can break cover only once before losing the scouting ability. No, give Phantom an effective maximum amount of 3 turns (subject to balancing) after losing team concealment, after that it drops automatically. Seems fair enough
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
A free overwatch for the uncovered troopers seems about right. You still get a pretty good advantage, but if your initial ambush leaves two or more alive, you're in a situation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:05
|
|
|
HenryEx posted:No, give Phantom an effective maximum amount of 3 turns (subject to balancing) after losing team concealment, after that it drops automatically. Seems fair enough Whatever floats your boat. I'm sure there will lots of different balance mods that you can mixn'match or hell, make your own. I'm also sure that the majority of players will be happy with occasionally being able to cheese a mission. Then there's the weird of us.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:32 |
|
|
Well, if the Long War chaps get involved, no doubt the ambushed will receive a free overwatch with covering fire and sentinel. And then the wall you're taking cover behind will melt into a Faceless. (Super stoked that they're getting stuck in early)
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2016 17:11
|
|
