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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:The Supernal ability doesn't make a huge difference in the game, but to the extent it does it just encourages weird monomaniacal characters whose personalities don't reflect the sort of legendary god-kings and sorcerer-queens you read about in things like Tales of the Flat Earth. The biggest change it is going to make is that people specialize even harder, which doesn't really benefit the game. I mostly dislike it for aesthetic reasons. The Supernal Ability leads to more gimmick builds than actual characters.
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Jan 27, 2016 06:15
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Yeah, at first glance it's cool if your character can do all the strength feats or whatever straight out the gate. But that also really changes the story, into one of specialists learning to branch out and work together instead of astounding heroes becoming even bigger heroes, or whatever.
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Jan 27, 2016 06:29
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:By the way, those Tanith Lee books were hard to find! But they are really cool and weird. The Kindle versions of the books that were available seem to have disappeared in order to make room for Penguin to republish them later this year.
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Jan 27, 2016 06:33
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I got some old used hardcover edition from my Mom for christmas 
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Jan 27, 2016 06:35
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The kindle versions are gone? Booooo!
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Jan 27, 2016 07:11
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Two pages of Supernal cockslapping. Good lord do we need a release date.
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Jan 27, 2016 08:18
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Yeah, at first glance it's cool if your character can do all the strength feats or whatever straight out the gate. But that also really changes the story, into one of specialists learning to branch out and work together instead of astounding heroes becoming even bigger heroes, or whatever.
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Jan 27, 2016 08:26
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theironjef posted:I've always just thought that Dawn Caste was a stupid idea to begin with. 3e just exacerbated it. I mean if you look at it it used to be way easier to call out what each caste was best at. I think this is a manifestation of the "Exalted is multiple people playing different games in the same campaign" thing. Exalted's made me realise that it's hard to do a game without what, for lack of a better term, I will call a mechanical thesis, that everyone's expected to involve themselves in. You can have character niches in different parts of the thesis-mechanic. "I am a great tanky fighter" and "I am a great ranged fighter" can coexist; they're both engaging with "physical combat". This is basically 4e D&D. And likewise you can have characters who are proficient in the thesis-mechanic and have secondary capabilities outside of combat for things the game is totally open are not on par with the thesis mechanic; Legends of the Wulin does this, since you're a kung fu doctor, or a kung fu shaman, or whatever, but you're always both kung fu and your secondary thing. I'm not entirely sure you can make a game with multiple thesis mechanics so the game is mechanically invested in craft and social manipulation and medicine and disease and travel and also combat or whatever. Exalted's always had combat as it's thesis mechanic; it's the way of erasing people from reality you don't like. If combat wasn't meant to be the thesis mechanic, having it be so crazy lethal was a bad idea. But at the same time it argues it's a game about everything, and because of that you get characters in it wholly unprepared for it at worst, and who have very little to do when combat does come up at best. I think, in short, scrapping dawn would probably be a good idea; Exalted becomes more like Legends of the Wulin, and everyone can throw down, just what else they're good at changes. Heck; you could even segregate combat and noncombat effects 4e style so you're not hosed in a fight because you beelined super-pillowtalk or whatever.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:49
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It reminds me of a recent conversation in the Apocalypse World thread - essentially, that game positions each of its different character types as a different genre. One's a charismatic cult leader trying to grow their cult while keeping it controlled, another is the boss of a settlement and wants to keep it running, another is a cool mercenary who's just here to kill people, etc. I bring this up to show that it can work out ok if everyone's playing different stories, but the game needs to reflect that. Exalted's in a strange middle ground where it wants characters to excel in different niches but also wants to make sure that pretty much everything one character can do another character can learn to do, if perhaps a bit less well.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:52
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spectralent posted:I'm not entirely sure you can make a game with multiple thesis mechanics so the game is mechanically invested in craft and social manipulation and medicine and disease and travel and also combat or whatever. Exalted's always had combat as it's thesis mechanic; it's the way of erasing people from reality you don't like. If combat wasn't meant to be the thesis mechanic, having it be so crazy lethal was a bad idea. But at the same time it argues it's a game about everything, and because of that you get characters in it wholly unprepared for it at worst, and who have very little to do when combat does come up at best. It's very possible to do this; you just have to abandon the idea that characters should be allowed to specialize. Or rather, characters should only be allowed to specialize within a "thesis mechanic", so that nobody picks "combat" over "talking" but instead pick "combat with swords" over "combat with spears" and "talking to people with charm" over "talking to people with money". Using D&D as a model, a character has to pick between Fighting Man, Magic-User and Cleric, and also between Rich Man, Threat-User, and Charmer. The available characters are always dual-classed in one combat and one social class, and as they level up, they gain competency in both.
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Jan 27, 2016 13:04
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Flavivirus posted:It reminds me of a recent conversation in the Apocalypse World thread - essentially, that game positions each of its different character types as a different genre. One's a charismatic cult leader trying to grow their cult while keeping it controlled, another is the boss of a settlement and wants to keep it running, another is a cool mercenary who's just here to kill people, etc. I bring this up to show that it can work out ok if everyone's playing different stories, but the game needs to reflect that. Exalted's in a strange middle ground where it wants characters to excel in different niches but also wants to make sure that pretty much everything one character can do another character can learn to do, if perhaps a bit less well. This is a good point but I think the issue is Apocalypse World has multiple different character thesises. Thesii? Theseseses. These'. Point is, mechanically, everyone operates on the same framework, and certainly resolution in that framework is both accessible to all players and not very time consuming. In Exalted, the dawn being a T-rex killer while everyone else is more of a bandit-staller is a problem, because combat eats up loads of time and has locked off options from other people, and insanely high-tier X is difficult for other people to touch. It creates the issue you get in bad war games where you can just go and get a drink in the hour it's the other dude's game and you're not needed. Also AW would love it if sometime tried to help out and hosed things up, Exalted presumes much more co-operation amongst it's party. LatwPIAT posted:It's very possible to do this; you just have to abandon the idea that characters should be allowed to specialize. Or rather, characters should only be allowed to specialize within a "thesis mechanic", so that nobody picks "combat" over "talking" but instead pick "combat with swords" over "combat with spears" and "talking to people with charm" over "talking to people with money". Using D&D as a model, a character has to pick between Fighting Man, Magic-User and Cleric, and also between Rich Man, Threat-User, and Charmer. The available characters are always dual-classed in one combat and one social class, and as they level up, they gain competency in both. I don't mean to be rude, but I did explicitly call this out as a way of doing things I approved of  spectralent posted:You can have character niches in different parts of the thesis-mechanic. "I am a great tanky fighter" and "I am a great ranged fighter" can coexist; they're both engaging with "physical combat".
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Jan 27, 2016 13:12
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spectralent posted:character thesises. Thesii? Theseseses. These'. "Theses", as it happens. It's Greek.
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Jan 27, 2016 14:24
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Two pages of Supernal cockslapping. The only time this thread gets activity is when people are bitching about something in the game or posting their own fixes to the game. its a bit depressing
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Jan 27, 2016 15:40
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It's because the game has been out for a year without actually being out, the devs are raging assholes, and there's no new information to talk about.
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Jan 27, 2016 15:50
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Why not talk about fun character builds. I want to try an Eclipse or something with the full Persona charmset from the Socialize tree, but I don't know if it's too much insane bookkeeping to be viable. Has anyone had a go with it?
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Jan 27, 2016 15:56
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Boing posted:Why not talk about fun character builds. I want to try an Eclipse or something with the full Persona charmset from the Socialize tree, but I don't know if it's too much insane bookkeeping to be viable. Has anyone had a go with it? I fiddled around with it. I think the issue I had was that it took 16 Charms or something to get the best persona stuff. So you ended up not quite being able to do persona well and/or terrible in combat. Phone posting so can't back this up with details atm.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:23
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Exmond posted:The only time this thread gets activity is when people are bitching about something in the game or posting their own fixes to the game. its a bit depressing Oh no, this is actually a humongous improvement compared to previous threads. Significantly less passive-aggressive shitposting, for example.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:32
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Boing posted:Why not talk about fun character builds. I want to try an Eclipse or something with the full Persona charmset from the Socialize tree, but I don't know if it's too much insane bookkeeping to be viable. Has anyone had a go with it? My current exalted character is built to build towards this. It's too many charms for a character creation build but the goal is that she'll eventually a seafaring ambassador princess who also houses a brash pirate king so I can play Faris from FFV.
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Jan 27, 2016 18:05
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I've felt Exalted needs to silo combat and noncombat for awhile. It's too easy to make a character with no effective capacity in one or another, and more so with Supernals.
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Jan 27, 2016 18:33
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mistaya posted:It's because the game has been out for a year without actually being out, the devs are raging assholes, and there's no new information to talk about. I've been wanting to do a series of articles (most likely in FATAL and Friends) that are a deep dive into the design of each ability, but have been waiting for ducking ever for the game to release. Is everyone working from the backer draft, and is it mechanically locked down enough to be used for reviews?
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Jan 27, 2016 18:35
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kaynorr posted:I've been wanting to do a series of articles (most likely in FATAL and Friends) that are a deep dive into the design of each ability, but have been waiting for ducking ever for the game to release. Is everyone working from the backer draft, and is it mechanically locked down enough to be used for reviews? I doubt they're going to be doing any mechanical revision at this point, not with how long it takes them to re-typeset poo poo.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:24
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Is there any way to buy the backer PDF with the Kickstarter closed?
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Jan 27, 2016 20:06
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Beyond the new art, it can't take this long to fix the places of words and re-crop art. It's been what, 2-3 months since the backer preview went out?
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Jan 27, 2016 20:14
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Beyond the new art, it can't take this long to fix the places of words and re-crop art. It's been what, 2-3 months since the backer preview went out? Well, they had to fix the two half-page pieces of art that were covering up words, which means moving around the words in that entire chapter. They also had to go through all the corrections people sent in and see which ones actually needed to be made (apparently they got a lot of incorrect corrections). Anyway, according to the Monday Meeting notes from two days ago, Maria just sent the corrected PDF back to Rich.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:22
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Boing posted:Why not talk about fun character builds. I want to try an Eclipse or something with the full Persona charmset from the Socialize tree, but I don't know if it's too much insane bookkeeping to be viable. Has anyone had a go with it? Just have your persona be the crafting bitch. Might be too much of an investment, though.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:39
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Rand Brittain posted:Anyway, according to the Monday Meeting notes from two days ago, Maria just sent the corrected PDF back to Rich. Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:The loving Index Still Needs To Be Written, Burn In Hell Chernobyl Peace Prize fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 20:56
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It's not Holden's job to write the index.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:03
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Boing posted:Why not talk about fun character builds. I want to try an Eclipse or something with the full Persona charmset from the Socialize tree, but I don't know if it's too much insane bookkeeping to be viable. Has anyone had a go with it? I had a player do this in a game where we converted our 2nd ed. characters over and he had a good time with it, but it's a large xp investment because you usually end up buying a bunch of supplemental charms to make your personas even better. However, the charms are worth it once the initial investment is paid. At some ridiculous amount of xp the personas are very powerful because they can get their own charms as well as your own charms and vice versa to some degree. However, initially they'll be fairly weak because a huge chunk of your xp is tied up in getting your personas and the pre-req charms aren't exactly stellar. It was an enormous amount of book-keeping, but I didn't notice it slowing down the game to any appreciable extent and the player in question spent most of his time as one persona or another instead as his 'main'. However, it can be a pain to design stuff tailored for that character because their toolbox gets a lot bigger. Also, I'm pretty sure there's some bizarre restriction on making a crafter persona that was put in so people wouldn't do that. And if you ever take At Your Service your GM is more than justified to beat you to death.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:04
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, they had to fix the two half-page pieces of art that were covering up words, which means moving around the words in that entire chapter. They also had to go through all the corrections people sent in and see which ones actually needed to be made (apparently they got a lot of incorrect corrections). Once again, those damnable fans bedevil the developers at every turn!
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Jan 27, 2016 21:13
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Rand Brittain posted:It's not Holden's job to write the index. Even if Holden's not the person sitting there comparing page references to book copy, if his role as a developer is anything like "person actually responsible for work getting done at all," It's actually is his job to make sure it's written and to be aware enough of the process to know it could/should've been done during Maria's layout period.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:13
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Even if Holden's not the person sitting there comparing page references to book copy, if his role as a developer is anything like "person actually responsible for work getting done at all," It's actually is his job to make sure it's written and to be aware enough of the process to know it could/should've been done during Maria's layout period. As far as I know, "person responsible for work getting done at all" is, in fact, not the developer's job according to Onyx Path's division of labor. At this point the book is pretty much in Rich and Eddy's hands. The "developer" job means that you're in charge of hiring and wrangling writers and assembling the text into its final shape, and doing a lot of what would be called "editing" if we were talking about a novel. But it doesn't have anything to do with the production side and isn't even that involved with things like picking out the art.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:17
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Rand Brittain posted:The "developer" job means that you're in charge of hiring and wrangling writers and assembling the text into its final shape, and doing a lot of what would be called "editing" if we were talking about a novel.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:18
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Okay, so where does the index not fall in this? The hiring, the wrangling, the doing stuff with text? The Monday Meeting comment says pretty openly that Rich is the one who does it.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:23
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Rand Brittain posted:The Monday Meeting comment says pretty openly that Rich is the one who does it.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:26
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That's really weird, guy.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:29
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So is constantly going to bat for a project with no goodwill left to squander without being on payroll, so I figure y'all are even.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:34
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Crion posted:So is constantly going to bat for a project with no goodwill left to squander without being on payroll, so I figure y'all are even. I don't actually put liking things and hating things on equal grounds of respectability, so.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:37
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This game is dumb and if it wasn't for having some it literally years ago I would never buy it for sheer fact that everything around it is a shitshow. Yes, even though I have had fun games with it.
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Jan 27, 2016 22:03
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't actually put liking things and hating things on equal grounds of respectability, so. I've never gotten the impression that people who shill endlessly for whatever product actually like it.
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Jan 27, 2016 22:12
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Yah if given another opportunity I would never have backed this. I think their has been about four other Onyx path games written, printed and shipped in the time this game is still in development. We are three months away for this being three years of development. How can they get the rest of the line done when they can barely get the core book finished in under a decade?
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Jan 27, 2016 22:27
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