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Which non-Power of the Daleks story would you like to see an episode found from?
This poll is closed.
Marco Polo 36 20.69%
The Myth Makers 10 5.75%
The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve 45 25.86%
The Savages 2 1.15%
The Smugglers 2 1.15%
The Highlanders 45 25.86%
The Macra Terror 21 12.07%
Fury from the Deep 13 7.47%
Total: 174 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
  • Locked thread
And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?

CobiWann posted:

Vote here, so everything's nice and legal!

http://strawpoll.me/6840498

You just didn't want us to vote for The Creature from the Pit, didn't you. :v:

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I just found out about this 'Class' spinoff and I think I must be reading it wrong because they can't really be making a spinoff about the idiot students from Clara's school fighting aliens can they

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

And More posted:

You just didn't want us to vote for The Creature from the Pit, didn't you. :v:

The serial itself does a fine job of that.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
Why so few votes for Ark

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."
I voted for my favourite, Terror of the Zygons. :colbert:

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?

Doctor Spaceman posted:

The serial itself does a fine job of that.

It's the only thing Occ should watch. :colbert:

pinacotheca
Oct 19, 2012

Events cast shadows before them, but the huger shadows creep over us unseen.
My heart says Robots of Death, my head says Genesis of the Daleks, and every other part of me isn't quite sure who these people are.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

He looks great for 900+!

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Why so few votes for Ark

We're all a little too bubble wrap-conscious?

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

After The War posted:

We're all a little too bubble wrap-conscious?

The "they're doing their best with £2.40 to spend on special effects" feel is a vital part of the charm to modern viewers, I feel

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008



MrL_JaKiri posted:

Why so few votes for Ark

Not enough Philip Madoc



But really, you're spoiled for choice when it comes to good Tom Baker

Picklepuss
Jul 12, 2002

Escobarbarian posted:

I just found out about this 'Class' spinoff and I think I must be reading it wrong because they can't really be making a spinoff about the idiot students from Clara's school fighting aliens can they
It could be worse. They could bring Angie and Artie from Nightmare in Silver back as students.

"I'M BORED!"

Neil Gaiman must have been so proud.

cargohills
Apr 18, 2014

After The War posted:

Every person I've started with City of Death has become a fan of the series. :colbert:

This is correct, please make a new poll that is exactly the same plus City of Death please CobiWann

pinacotheca
Oct 19, 2012

Events cast shadows before them, but the huger shadows creep over us unseen.
However, after you've shown City of Death to them, you're legally obliged to explain that no other classic Who story is quite as good as it.

(Except Caves, obv.)

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

pinacotheca posted:

However, after you've shown City of Death to them, you're legally obliged to explain that no other classic Who story is quite as good as it.

Agreed, although there's lots that are better

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

Picklepuss posted:

It could be worse. They could bring Angie and Artie from Nightmare in Silver back as students.

"I'M BORED!"

Neil Gaiman must have been so proud.

They should have teamed up with the Gods of Rrrrrrrrrragnarrrrrrrock.

EDIT - Or the Eternals, they complained about being bored a lot, too.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
My poll, my choices. :colbert:

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

CobiWann posted:

My poll, my choices. :colbert:

American politics.txt :v:

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Escobarbarian posted:

I just found out about this 'Class' spinoff and I think I must be reading it wrong because they can't really be making a spinoff about the idiot students from Clara's school fighting aliens can they

I had heard about it but didn't know anything else about it so I assumed it was a spinoff with Maisie Williams and her group doing stuff (especially based on the ending of Woman who Lived). I guess she's too busy with Game of Thrones right now though.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

MrL_JaKiri posted:

American politics.txt :v:

Look, I’ve gone from supporting Mitt Romney in 2012 to pulling for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I’m more confused than a drunk college girl at an Indigo Girls concert.

egon_beeblebrox
Mar 1, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.



CobiWann posted:

Look, I’ve gone from supporting Mitt Romney in 2012 to pulling for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I’m more confused than a drunk college girl at an Indigo Girls concert.

This made me laugh out loud.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

CobiWann posted:

Look, I’ve gone from supporting Mitt Romney in 2012 to pulling for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I’m more confused than a drunk college girl at an Indigo Girls concert.

I don't know where you've been indoctrinated to like a crazy old man with ideas about how things should be fairer but I'm having none of it in the Doctor Who thread

Barry Foster
Dec 24, 2007

What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)
Speaking of said crazy old men, Peter Capaldi's been up to his arty fanboy tricks again.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Barry Foster posted:

Speaking of said crazy old men, Peter Capaldi's been up to his arty fanboy tricks again.

Never leave Peter, never leave :shobon:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Well Peter's artwork has certainly improved since the 70s! :haw:

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Toph Bei Fong posted:

Not enough Philip Madoc

Your name... is going on Ze List.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: Lucie treads the boards, an actor "dies" on the stage, and the Doctor shows Nazis that advertising isn't always truthful.

Long Synopsis: The Doctor and Lucie are diverted to Nazi Occupied Paris and lose the TARDIS. A mysterious family of performers press-gang Lucie into their far-too realistic act, while the Doctor attempts to exploit the local Gestapo while keeping as far away from them as possible.

What's Good:
  • The Scapegoat. The titular character is very well-realized. The chosen representative of an alien clan, Max Paul is a star - "The Man Who Died 1000 Times" - who has been picked to suffer and die time and time again... and help pay the bills in the process. Every night he performs in a play, and at the end of each play he is killed brutally, with the audience horrified but thrilled by the brutality. None of them know the truth though, that he is actually dying, that everything that happens to him is actually happening, and their screams help sate the bloodlust of his humanoid-goat clan. They have adapted their biological imperatives to fit their sentience and "civilization", now rather than killing for the thrill of the hunt they get their "fix" from the genuine emotional horror and fear of their audience: an audience that keeps coming back because they thrill to the sense of being scared, while thinking it's perfectly "safe". It also serves as an outlet for their own fear/unease for their current lot as an occupied country - it's basically a perfect situation for everybody.... except for the scapegoat. Max Paul's resignation to his fate, his earnest efforts to help out Lucie, and his eventual realization of the redundancy of his role are all well realized.

  • Lucie's "acting". Lucie finds herself teleported to the Theatre des Baroque where her "captors" just seem to naturally assume she's going to take part in the play. They don't ask her, or explain things to her, they just shove her out onto stage and tell her to act, and boy does she. Sheridan Smith does a great acting job portraying Lucie as a TERRIBLE actress. She awkwardly booms through her lines, questions everything, talks to the audience, breaks character constantly... it's fantastically bad.

  • "Yes mother". Part and parcel of the previous two points is the notion that the Clan Baroque just seem to assume people will do what they want, when they want. This falls into the notion that their race has a firm concept of the world being divided into predators and victims. They assume that victims are always victims, that predators are always predators, and that this is just the way things always were, are and will be. They brook no disagreement, don't even acknowledge the possibility of a different way, and this is perfectly encapsulated in "Yes Mother". The Matriarch of the Clan, played by Samantha Bond, has a device implanted in her head that literally just drowns out anything that anybody says that she doesn't want to hear. It's not that she ignores what others have to say, but that she literally doesn't hear anything that doesn't fit in with her worldview or immediately agree with her. Mother Baroque represents the dead-end that their clan has reached, so completely unaccepting of any alternate view or argument that they engineer their own destruction. Mother Baroque's ending is stupid, short-sighted and inevitable.... and absolutely perfect.


What's Not:

  • The setting. The Theatre des Baroque operates within Nazi-Occupied Paris..... and this has almost zero bearing on anything. Though lip-service is paid to Doctor Baroque having provided some service to the Nazis in the past, and the Gestapo frequently shows up... it might as well be set in 1900 which is where they were originally headed (Lucie wanted to go to the Moulin Rouge and meet Ewan McGregor!). The audience members and other citizens of Paris are just going about their business as they please like it is any other day, and even when the Nazis show up they mostly seem irritated or openly contemptuous of them. The Gestapo are there to keep the Doctor away from Lucie for half the run-time, and though attempts are made to make at least one of them seem fairly competent (Clifford Rose from Warrior's Gate) in the end the revelation that he's been made to look like a fool has no catharsis because neither he nor any of the others have done anything to make the listener pull for their comeuppance.

  • Inconsistent competence. Outside of the previously mentioned Gestapo, the Clan Baroque also suffer from inconsistency. Apparently technologically advanced enough to gain access to the Time Vortex, able to constantly resurrect a dead man and heal any wound he suffers, and create hard-light holograms.... they're also idiots who don't apparently know how to build anything, and are only slightly more advanced than 1940s-era humans. Part of that may have been deliberate in that the Clan has been shown to have hit an evolutionary dead-end, requiring a kick up the rear end from the Doctor to show them a better way.... but inconsistency is inconsistency. They can't both be capable of playing on a technological level with the Time Lords AND be utterly ignorant of how any of it works AND be capable of producing advanced engineering for the Nazis.

  • The resolution. The end just kind of.... happens. The Doctor shows up and tells everybody that he's found a peaceful solution, Mother doesn't (and can't) listen, the Nazis show up and there's a big slaughter.... then the Clan just goes and retires peacefully to their old home planet and become vegetarians and the Doctor laughs off the notion that the Nazis now have their hands on incredibly advanced technology by saying,"Oh yeah but probably nobody will believe the Major v:shobon:v and.... that's it. It's an incredibly unsatisfying ending to a story that never really came together in the first place.

Final Thoughts:

The Scapegoat is a patchwork story of interesting ideas that never really comes together. It doesn't take advantage of the setting, and it doesn't play too strongly to the themes or parallels between the Clan, the Theatre and the inhabitants of Nazi-occupied Paris. The big "I don't have to be a victim" moment doesn't really resonate, and most of the supporting characters feel completely irrelevant. On the plus side, Big Finish wisely decides not to even attempt accents - while it does make it a bit perplexing to hear a lot of common English accents for the people of Paris, it would have been worse to hear some terrible attempts at French accents. There are German accents, but they sound fine to me mostly because I'm so used to hear Nazis sounding that way because they're so frequently played by the British anyway! This isn't a great story, but nor is it a bad one. It's not particularly cohesive and it has its fair share of problems, but it's listenable and fun in places, and not something you'll regret having listened to. It's just not something most people would ever go out of their way to do so.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
Romana I was in a lot more episodes than I remember.

Rochallor
Apr 23, 2010

ふっっっっっっっっっっっっck

Jerusalem posted:

[*] The resolution. The end just kind of.... happens. The Doctor shows up and tells everybody that he's found a peaceful solution, Mother doesn't (and can't) listen, the Nazis show up and there's a big slaughter.... then the Clan just goes and retires peacefully to their old home planet and become vegetarians and the Doctor laughs off the notion that the Nazis now have their hands on incredibly advanced technology by saying,"Oh yeah but probably nobody will believe the Major v:shobon:v and.... that's it. It's an incredibly unsatisfying ending to a story that never really came together in the first place.
[/list]

I don't know what it is, but poor conclusions are a chronic problem at Big Finish. It's a problem everywhere, of course, but almost every single story they put out has a resolution that falls flat. I will give a story that ends on a high note a lot of leeway simply because of how infrequently it happens.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I am happy that they're willing to experiment a bit with what they do, but I do think they need to remember that a strong concept in and of itself does not a good story make. Like you, I often find a mediocre story with a strong ending stands out far more than a really good story where the ending falls flat. But even then, you can't just introduce concepts for their own sake, and I think they really dropped the ball by not more strongly singling out the almost symbiotic relationship between the Clan who needed screams/fear to sate their bloodlust, and the audience who needed to scream/be afraid to help vent some of the real world terror they would have been living in at the time as an occupied country.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

CobiWann posted:

Look, I’ve gone from supporting Mitt Romney in 2012 to pulling for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I’m more confused than a drunk college girl at an Indigo Girls concert.

Which Doctor Who villain do you think Donald Trump is? I find it kind of hard to choose.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Bicyclops posted:

Which Doctor Who villain do you think Donald Trump is? I find it kind of hard to choose.

Sil

Dr. Gene Dango MD
May 20, 2010

Fuck them other cats I'm running with my own wolfpack

Keep fronting like youse a thug and get ya dome pushed back

Bicyclops posted:

Which Doctor Who villain do you think Donald Trump is? I find it kind of hard to choose.
The Fearmonger

edit - I picked Genesis because I think they'd like it more but Pyramids of Mars is better imo.

Dr. Gene Dango MD fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Feb 18, 2016

saucerman
Mar 20, 2009

CobiWann posted:

Look, I’ve gone from supporting Mitt Romney in 2012 to pulling for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I’m more confused than a drunk college girl at an Indigo Girls concert.

<topical political humor>
Bernie Sanders looks so old he might as well be a Time Lord!
</topical political humor>

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004


That was my first instinct but it feels like a huge insult to Nabil Shaban somehow.

I'm really behind on my Big Finish lately because I've been too lazy to put the short trips on my phone and figure them out during my commute. It doesn't help that the first few haven't impressed me. I was hoping the variety of times would give them a chance to tell some different kinds of stories, but so far they have mostly been snoozers.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."
In other news, Eve Myles has said she's done with playing Gwen Cooper, so no returns to Torchwood.

Buh bye.

Hit or miss Clitoris
Apr 19, 2003
I HAVE BEEN A VERY NAUGHTY BOY

Bicyclops posted:

Which Doctor Who villain do you think Donald Trump is? I find it kind of hard to choose.

The Collector

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9emqnRpYoU

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

The_Doctor posted:

In other news, Eve Myles has said she's done with playing Gwen Cooper, so no returns to Torchwood.

Buh bye.

This acts like there is an Torchwood ongoing, and not just audio dramas.

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Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Bicyclops posted:

Which Doctor Who villain do you think Donald Trump is? I find it kind of hard to choose.

The Absorbalof.

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