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I'm really surprised how far in front Accept is and wonder how different it would be if this was all happening in Max's own dimension where there would be some actual repercussions. Playing Quantum
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Mar 14, 2016 20:11
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 23:22 |
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She's not beating Chloe to death with a wrench because it's the only way she can finish, she's sparing her from the double team pain of slow agonising death and watching her beloved parents ruin themselves with debt in trying futilely to save her
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Mar 14, 2016 20:31
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Max hasn't even been in this dimension for 24 hours and has had a 5 minute conversation with her parents. Also who's to know she isn't going to leave someone else who clearly doesn't have as strong a connection to this Chloe, living with the repercussions. You can argue what the actual SCIENCE of this flavour of dimension hopping is but seems a bit reckless. I am making the assumption she's going back, be pretty left field if she didn't. Maybe ending Chloe's life prematurely is the best answer for everyone involved but I think that it ought to involve a hell of a lot more deliberation and also the people who love this Chloe the most, her parents. Of course the obvious answer to that is artistic license and moving the story on at an acceptable pace and maybe others are able to see this decision in the context of being a piece of fiction more than me? Fwoderwick fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 21:33
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Yeah. It seems like we should really bring her parents in on this. I also love that the solution is to turn it up to 11.
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Mar 14, 2016 22:38
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Story time: when my grandfather died many years ago, he did not go easily. He'd beat up and been beat up by cancer for 30 years, and was suffering from blood clots left and right. In the last years, he was not having an easy time to the point of getting a colostomy bag, and both legs and an arm amputated with few months in-between. Every time, everybody was urging the procedure on and hoping this would be the last and would save him. Meanwhile, he was suffering and after a time just wanted to let go. After he passed, everybody agreed that the doctors went too far and should have let him get his final wish. Morale: the ones closest are terrible judges of what is best. Chloe's parents desperately cling to the impossible dream that Chloe will need those crutches. It's an impossible dream and unfair to let Chloe suffer for it. Letting go will definitively crush that hope, making them hold on longer than they should. The game makes it painfully clear that there is no other way. Every character has mentioned the respiratory problems is going to kill her and soon. Not helping her is cruel, not only to Chloe, but also to her parents who not only have to watch her suffer but also postpone the inevitable time where they have to move on. Any problems with murder charges could be solved by having Chloe record a final good-bye to her parents. That'll hold up in video game court. I don't think it's a spur-of-the moment thing, and agree fully that the time-span for a large part is due to pacing of the game. Ignoring that, Chloe's request makes perfect sense. She doesn't just seem like a much more accommodating Chloe than in the regular time-line; she seems like the pain has completely (and with good reason) crushed her. That said, as strongly as I feel for helping Chloe here (and voted accordingly,) I doubt I could do it myself in real life. Luckily, I live in a place where healthcare professionals are allowed to.
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Mar 14, 2016 22:57
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This is because we didn't kiss this Chloe.
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Mar 15, 2016 00:33
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I hope people are aware that Chloe, being an adult resident of the state of Oregon, has the right to life-terminating medication if her physicians decide it is appropriate (at a minimum they must have determined that she has less than six months to live). She also has to be effectively mentally capable to make the choice, but she clearly is. http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/index.aspx
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Mar 15, 2016 00:57
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Which is why we should say no, because if Chloe wants to die and actually has less than six months to live then she can have a doctor do it and there won't be a morally gray area. I have a ton more to say about this section, but I haven't gotten a chance to watch the videos yet so I wanna do that and be able to take it in before I post my dissertation.
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Mar 15, 2016 01:13
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Kangra posted:I hope people are aware that Chloe, being an adult resident of the state of Oregon, has the right to life-terminating medication if her physicians decide it is appropriate (at a minimum they must have determined that she has less than six months to live). She also has to be effectively mentally capable to make the choice, but she clearly is. Well, the doctors haven't given a time frame. So, there's some grey area there. Further, physician supervision is necessary.
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Mar 15, 2016 01:41
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Kangra posted:I hope people are aware that Chloe, being an adult resident of the state of Oregon, has the right to life-terminating medication if her physicians decide it is appropriate (at a minimum they must have determined that she has less than six months to live). She also has to be effectively mentally capable to make the choice, but she clearly is. Well this is an area where the writing sort of falls down when you really analyze it. After all Chloe is 18 and should be making her own medical decisions as a matter of law and ethics but her doctors seem to be treating her parents as the ultimate decision makers and both her parents and her doctors seem to be trying to hide the extent of her condition from her (assuming Chloe is telling Max the truth) which is incredibly unethical in a real world setting. Now one could imagine lots of reasons why this might be in game but the most likely reason is just that the writers wrote this part without having a real good grasp of actual real world medical ethics or Oregon law and instead wrote a scene which got at an emotional question in the very broad strokes.
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Mar 15, 2016 02:02
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Do not turn Max into a murderer even if it dunks on Maxine please.
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Mar 15, 2016 02:57
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Captian Nuke posted:Well this is an area where the writing sort of falls down when you really analyze it. After all Chloe is 18 and should be making her own medical decisions as a matter of law and ethics but her doctors seem to be treating her parents as the ultimate decision makers and both her parents and her doctors seem to be trying to hide the extent of her condition from her (assuming Chloe is telling Max the truth) which is incredibly unethical in a real world setting. Now one could imagine lots of reasons why this might be in game but the most likely reason is just that the writers wrote this part without having a real good grasp of actual real world medical ethics or Oregon law and instead wrote a scene which got at an emotional question in the very broad strokes. Yeah, much like the blatant violation of the ADA I pointed out last week, I think it's just that Dontnod is French and doesn't really know American laws when it comes to this stuff. Also drama trumps realism.
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Mar 15, 2016 03:01
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I've just been lurking until this update and I didn't really want to touch this vote with a ten foot pole, but I'm gonna have to go with Reject. Chloe had some ridiculous expectations of us in the original timeline (how dare you not pay attention to me for two minutes to answer a phone call, how dare you let the scary man with the knife intimidate you) but this goes above and beyond. She is asking Max to be a killer, to live with the weight and repercussions of directly causing her best friend's death forever, and that is absolutely not fair. She hasn't given any thought to how Max would feel, or whether Max could be thrown in prison for this, she only wants to do it right now for some ~perfect memory~ in her mind. Chloe's rights are absolutely valid, but this is something that should be on her and her doctor. Not on Max. this is a good LP by the way  One of my favorites going on right now.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:03
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Waffleman_ posted:Yeah, much like the blatant violation of the ADA I pointed out last week, I think it's just that Dontnod is French and doesn't really know American laws when it comes to this stuff. Also drama trumps realism. Wells actually mentions the ADA in his letter, but seems to be claiming that they don't have to comply because their buildings are from before 1977. I don't know if that's actually how the ADA works, but at least it was something the developers were thinking about. (That attachment is a lot bigger than I thought it would be. Sorry.) Skrewtape fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 05:31
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While the actual Oregon law and medical ethics and such say that reject would be the logical choice, I don't really have a hard time believing that this situation would come up between Chloe and Max. I know when I went to high school, there was a suicide or suicide attempt pretty much every year, basically the results of teenage angst and hormones. Chloe is a quadriplegic who knows she's getting worse and has real pain and suffering way beyond the average teen. She is also probably not considering the ramifications for Max after she's gone when asking her. Honestly, I would've had more disbelief if this choice or something like it didn't happen.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:57
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We're about to blow this timeline up anyways, the law doesn't matter. She won't have a chance to go to the doctor because we're about to make all this unhappen, so the question is whether she is unmade at our hand with her perfect memory intact, or unmade at our hand after we spurn her wishes. There's no evidence either choice is gonna lead to us not being immediately and personally responsible for her death, the question is whether it gets to be on her terms or whether we dictate that it happens on ours.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:23
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Skrewtape posted:Wells actually mentions the ADA in his letter, but seems to be claiming that they don't have to comply because their buildings are from before 1977. I don't know if that's actually how the ADA works, but at least it was something the developers were thinking about. And while my gut reaction is "how expensive can it be to include wheelchair ramps everywhere?" Blackwell has multiple floors which means they'll need some kind of elevator as well. Nursing staff would need training on how to deal with her medical issues in case of emergencies (doable since her parents seem to be able to handle it), she'd need special access to use the restroom in some form (I don't know how quadriplegics handle this and I do NOT want to find out) plus while she has that fancy mouth-computer-doohickie she could probably use a school laptop for a lot of stuff, just doing normal school stuff would be a chore. So a lot of the cost is more than just buildings. State agencies exist for this specific reason to provide funding as necessary, but as a private school Blackwell may be exempt and may be able to get away with this bullshit. The exact nature of Blackwell is rather dubious, but if they're suffering from education cuts as the letter claims, then holy poo poo they are required by law to do this .Most of ths information was gathered from google searches, so please take everything here with a gallon of salt.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:49
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Krysmphoenix posted:A quick glance at the ADA wikipedia page, and a google search on the year, it doesn't seem like 1977 means anything other than when the school was built. (Or probably when the newest building was built.) The main cause seems to be the funding issue. This could all be solved by a correspondence program. They just don't give a gently caress.
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Mar 15, 2016 07:20
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Well, the H. West Miskatonic Institute would solve quite a few of our problems. Grant her wish, then reanimate for more suffering. Sounds like the perfect school for alt-Max.
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Mar 15, 2016 08:53
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With a letter like that a lawsuit would probably have been a slam dunk but the Prices don't have the financial means to go down that route and the school knows it.
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Mar 15, 2016 13:25
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Captian Nuke posted:Well this is an area where the writing sort of falls down when you really analyze it. After all Chloe is 18 and should be making her own medical decisions as a matter of law and ethics but her doctors seem to be treating her parents as the ultimate decision makers and both her parents and her doctors seem to be trying to hide the extent of her condition from her (assuming Chloe is telling Max the truth) which is incredibly unethical in a real world setting. Now one could imagine lots of reasons why this might be in game but the most likely reason is just that the writers wrote this part without having a real good grasp of actual real world medical ethics or Oregon law and instead wrote a scene which got at an emotional question in the very broad strokes. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that they aged the characters up at the last minute or something because of all the sex, drugs and violence. It's also why it's possible for Max to be the new girl at a senior's only high school and for everyone to have attended class at Blackwell with Rachel even though she disappeared 6 months ago and it is October. Like, I'm pretty sure it was just originally going to be a regular high school.
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Mar 16, 2016 07:40
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It seems like the closer the bond between Max and Chloe the harder everything goes to poo poo. Like, the world stays fine for so many years while they are distant, and the moment they reconnect the very universe punishes them for it. I just want Warren to be dunked, Madsen to be less of a prick, and the gay girl duo to be happy. Destroy this timeline, and all other timelines where these conditions aren't true.
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Mar 16, 2016 07:45
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100 HOGS AGREE posted:With a letter like that a lawsuit would probably have been a slam dunk but the Prices don't have the financial means to go down that route and the school knows it. That would be a slam dunk choice for pro bono work.
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Mar 16, 2016 19:20
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Coffeehitler posted:That would be a slam dunk choice for pro bono work. But they would have to find a lawyer to do it, explain the details of the case, and possibly testify, all additional stress the Price's don't really need. Plus once they realised that Chloe's condition was not going to improve, they may have decided that her attending school would not be practical, even with disabled access in place.
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Mar 16, 2016 20:04
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Coffeehitler posted:That would be a slam dunk choice for pro bono work. They wasted an opportunity for a Better Call Saul crossover.
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Mar 16, 2016 20:08
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Kallev posted:It seems like the closer the bond between Max and Chloe the harder everything goes to poo poo. Like, the world stays fine for so many years while they are distant, and the moment they reconnect the very universe punishes them for it. I just want Warren to be dunked, Madsen to be less of a prick, and the gay girl duo to be happy. Destroy this timeline, and all other timelines where these conditions aren't true. Agreed. One happy ending please!
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Mar 16, 2016 21:56
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anilEhilated posted:Well, the H. West Miskatonic Institute would solve quite a few of our problems. Grant her wish, then reanimate for more suffering. Sounds like the perfect school for alt-Max. Was going to say the same thing. In case the hint was not enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_West%E2%80%93Reanimator By the way, we should not kill Chloe. If she was already at the end of the road, in horrible pain, I'd be for the other option.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:21
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That Italian Guy posted:
Well she does need a healthy dose of morphine just to start the day and function so not exactly a pain free existence
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Mar 16, 2016 23:43
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Surprise Pizza posted:But they would have to find a lawyer to do it, explain the details of the case, and possibly testify, all additional stress the Price's don't really need. Plus once they realised that Chloe's condition was not going to improve, they may have decided that her attending school would not be practical, even with disabled access in place. I should have been more clear; most any lawyer would get the hugest litigation boner over this case. The only way the school could win is if there is in fact the pre-1977 clause in the ADA. And I'm almost certain that there isn't, all of the 2 floor high schools from where I grew up (that I can remember) either had ramps (which made a huge loop to go from the ground floor to the second floor of the same building, requiring you to go into the main building and through the cafeteria) or elevators and they were both from pre-'77.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:21
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I just watched the episode and http://vocaroo.com/i/s0VFW0OqSxoW
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Mar 17, 2016 02:56
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Skrewtape posted:Wells actually mentions the ADA in his letter, but seems to be claiming that they don't have to comply because their buildings are from before 1977. I don't know if that's actually how the ADA works, but at least it was something the developers were thinking about. The ADA states that all public places must make reasonable accommodations to be accessible to individuals with disabilities. The term reasonable creates a pretty major gray area, which is why the school is trying to get away with saying they haven't been able to fit it in the budget yet (because the school was built before the act was passed, they do have to comply eventually but there is some wiggle room on when). They actually would have an argument that installing handicap accessible entrances and exits for one student is an unreasonable accommodation because the cost would be prohibitive to providing the other students a quality education. However I don't think that argument would work if they were actually challenged on it, because it's been over 30 years since the ADA was passed and they should absolutely be in compliance by now, to the point that if anyone reported them they should get in trouble with their state's education commission. You can't claim budget cuts for 30 years. Just out of curiosity, if we had left the handicapped fund would Chloe have been accepted into Blackwell? \/\/\/ - thanks, I get that. I was wondering if the timelines were interconnected at all. Cuveball Sliders fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 03:12
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McFetusBurger posted:Just out of curiosity, if we had left the handicapped fund would Chloe have been accepted into Blackwell? It wouldn't have affected anything here because this is a different timeline. We never met up with Chloe, we never investigated Rachel, we never broke into the school.
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Mar 17, 2016 03:15
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Also that was never handicapped funding because who deals in cash these days??
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Mar 17, 2016 03:54
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General Ironicus posted:I just watched the episode and http://vocaroo.com/i/s0VFW0OqSxoW why the hell can't i fav posts yet
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Mar 17, 2016 04:21
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Oh man I just finished this game yesterday and was hoping somebody would LP it and like magic someone's been doing it for months and I've just missed it like an idiot. I'm so excited since this is (in my opinion) one of the best parts of the game.
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Mar 17, 2016 04:49
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Cross posting from the cosplay thread   
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Mar 17, 2016 12:48
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Waffleman_ posted:It wouldn't have affected anything here because this is a different timeline. Somebody's obviously never heard of the morphogenic field...
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Mar 17, 2016 19:01
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Poll update!! Accept is still very much ahead but reject is catching up!! I'm impressed by its tenacity! You have until 6pm PST friday so don't forget to vote!!!NinetySevenA posted:Cross posting from the cosplay thread These are all amazing but that Victoria is I N S A N E holy MOLY. Thanks for posting these!!
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Mar 17, 2016 19:09
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klafbang posted:Somebody's obviously never heard of the morphogenic field... This isn't Zero Escape! We're dealing with a different concept than Shrodinger!
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Mar 17, 2016 19:13
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 23:22 |
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I can't believe that following Chloes request is still winning! All ethics and practicalities of the actual choice aside, a lot of the reasoning here is terrible, particularly those saying it's ok because Alterna-Max is a bit different/worse from Max Prime (which is kinda dumb because we aren't dimension hopping here, we're altering events around Max Prime in the only confirmed reality, Alterna-Max won't suddenly reappear and have to face the consequences or anything) or it's ok because we can render the whole thing null by changing the far past again. 'Losing perspective around moral action because you can just leap back' is basically a staple moral hazard of this sort of time travel story, so er well done everyone for proving their point. There's also the point that since time seems to chug along consistently no matter what serious changes are made to the past, what happens if Max decides to come back to this reality (after more tragic events happen, or Arcadia Bay can only be saved in the altered one or something)? I think a good question would be what if Max took something like a photo of Chloe and her dad (in Paris or something) from this reality and then went back to the original course of events and then gave Chloe the photo. Considering how physical objects move with Max when she does alter time it should be possible, but would it be a good thing to do? She isn't burdening anyone in this reality with the choice of who lives or dies but she's already told blue-haired Chloe about her powers so would letting her have a memento from the other side really be out of line? Chloe would probably (definitely) freak out but I wonder if she'd just treasure the picture or insist that Max change history again? Also Angel Kate is judging you all; 'Dunk not lest you be dunked!'
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Mar 17, 2016 23:38
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