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Bellmaker posted:I always figured Straybow became possessed by Odio when he helped kill the Demon Lord because of his whole anger at Oersted thing (Kain from FF4 taken to its extreme). Odio is explicitly Oersted, though; they're the same entity. That doesn't mean it's impossible for Odio-as-Oersted to possess Straybow, much as he did the bosses for the previous chapters, but it'd be a little weird for Oersted to fight himself.
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Mar 31, 2016 19:48
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It's more subtle than that. It's likely that Straybow and Alicia were possessed by their own inner demons in the heart of Devils peak. Even then I think it doesn't quite fit the 'Humans are the real Demons' sub narrative I like to tout for this chapter. There explicitly isn't a Demon King (as Hash mentioned since he killed the previous one) until Oerstead becomes Odio.
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Mar 31, 2016 20:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Odio is explicitly Oersted, though; they're the same entity. That doesn't mean it's impossible for Odio-as-Oersted to possess Straybow, much as he did the bosses for the previous chapters, but it'd be a little weird for Oersted to fight himself. This is never actually stated. Oersted becomes Odio, but it's implied that he knows the name because that's what the Demon King was always called in the past (the name being withheld for the rest of the chapter just to preserve the surprise). There's a lot of evidence supporting the idea that anyone can become Odio under the right conditions (such as Oersted explicitly saying so), and that each chapter-specific incarnation is a separate entity.
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Mar 31, 2016 23:41
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Rest assured, we will be getting more information on the nature of Odio after we're done with the other five personal dungeons.Fish Noise posted:Look, there were bound to be some failures on the way to Kubrows, alright?  ...And yes, yes it is. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Also never stop making Warframe references.EponymousMrYar posted:Hurricane Shot is pretty much O. Dio's gatling gun attack. Only The Kid's allegedly doing that with two pistols. MightyPretenders posted:Maybe he was wearing the Bloody Magic Robe when he died? 
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Apr 1, 2016 00:33
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I didn't see it mentioned, by the way, but
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Apr 1, 2016 00:58
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My read on the Alicia situation re: Straybow vs. Oersted was just that she's kind of weak-willed. It's played off as ~romance~ because the setup of this chapter is playing Generic Heroic Fantasy RPG right up to the hilt and then some, so of course this is a perfect courtly destined match: the Hero marries the Princess and it's True Love, and this guy is obviously the Hero because you're playing as him. There's so much trope here you've almost written the entire story in your head just from this setup. Which is exactly what this chapter wanted you to do, so it's more effective when it starts breaking Oersted's kneecaps. I mean, if you look at what actually happened, what does Alicia actually know about Oersted? She knows he Fight Good. That's literally it. But she's already professing that she becomes his queen with pleasure, and that she believes in him more than anyone else. She's probably been raised with the understanding that that's just what you do. She's so thinly developed as a character that, when the chapter drops the veil of Generic Heroic Fantasy, she comes across to me as someone who is actually, in-story, not very well actualized as a person. So she can profess undying faith to her new husband who Fight Good one day, and then the next day be so swayed by Straybow talking trash and lamenting always being second fiddle that she is actually willing to commit suicide over him. I don't think she was even being insincere when she was romancing it up with Oersted; she probably would have killed herself to be with him instead, if he'd been the one killed. She's just so weak-willed that she can't really be constant. Because that's how this chapter works.
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Apr 1, 2016 03:32
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GeminiSun posted:My read on the Alicia situation re: Straybow vs. Oersted was just that she's kind of weak-willed. It's played off as ~romance~ because the setup of this chapter is playing Generic Heroic Fantasy RPG right up to the hilt and then some, so of course this is a perfect courtly destined match: the Hero marries the Princess and it's True Love, and this guy is obviously the Hero because you're playing as him. There's so much trope here you've almost written the entire story in your head just from this setup. Which is exactly what this chapter wanted you to do, so it's more effective when it starts breaking Oersted's kneecaps. Medieval Chapter: Everyones just kind of the worst and not in a bad writing sort of way. In the depressing human sort of way.
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Apr 1, 2016 03:51
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Zanzibar Ham posted:But it's not just that. The characters are so flat, and how did Straybow convince the princess to stay in the demon's lair for at least a day?
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Apr 1, 2016 07:08
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I reckon that when he popped out to murder the king he told her to stay behind because he was making sure it was safe.
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Apr 1, 2016 08:36
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Onmi posted:Medieval Chapter: Everyones just kind of the worst and not in a bad writing sort of way. In the depressing human sort of way. Exactly. It's pretty impressive really.
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Apr 1, 2016 08:46
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Straybow is actually incredibly interesting because of how much he really IS just flat scum. He never once brings up his feelings to Oersted, and for all intents and purposes of what we know in chapter, Oersted was not particularly mean to him. Like... In-Character Straybow is trying to pull the "Don't you see, you were really the monster all along!" but that's only in his head. And it is nice to see a game that accurately calls out that bullshit. The exact opposite of this happens in Chrono Cross, where the Tank owning dwarves go "Oh woe is humanity for ruining the planet" after they'd just decided "Welp we have to move from our lovely poisonous bog to this lush island, better murder all the inhabitants for no reason." And then the Fairy's they'd been genociding also jump in with "gently caress you Humans!" Straybow is the opposite, he's clearly trying to frame everything as actually all Oersted's fault, but the truth is, he's just a selfish petty man. He invited himself along on the journey he referred to them as "The Winners of the Tournament" when he'd lost. He faked his own death, he made Oersted kill the king, even though all he had to do was take Alicia and leave the country if that was all he really wanted. The moment you meet Straybow, he's a selfish rear end in a top hat who's obsessed with his own grandeur.
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Apr 1, 2016 12:21
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It's a bit unfair to hold use Chrono Cross as a typical example, that game was an absolute mess writing-wise - I think the closer example is Luke getting unilaterially blamed in Abyss despite the party knowing he has the literal knowledge of a seven year old and basically told to "Shut up, grown ups are talking" so of course he trust the only guy who gave him the time of day and not one character acknowledge they some part in that disaster for not telling him anything.
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Apr 1, 2016 15:17
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Onmi posted:The moment you meet Straybow, he's a selfish rear end in a top hat who's obsessed with his own grandeur. Sounds pretty typical of the wizard archetype 
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Apr 1, 2016 15:55
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Onmi posted:Straybow is actually incredibly interesting because of how much he really IS just flat scum. He never once brings up his feelings to Oersted, and for all intents and purposes of what we know in chapter, Oersted was not particularly mean to him. Like... In-Character Straybow is trying to pull the "Don't you see, you were really the monster all along!" but that's only in his head. And it is nice to see a game that accurately calls out that bullshit. The exact opposite of this happens in Chrono Cross, where the Tank owning dwarves go "Oh woe is humanity for ruining the planet" after they'd just decided "Welp we have to move from our lovely poisonous bog to this lush island, better murder all the inhabitants for no reason." And then the Fairy's they'd been genociding also jump in with "gently caress you Humans!" This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. 
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Apr 1, 2016 16:18
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It's also poking at the reflex to assume that anyone who joins your party is automatically a good guy. RPGs always have you recruiting crazed religious psychos, assassins, former mad sorcerers... but the second they tell you they'll fight for you, they're 100% dedicated to the side of good forever. So when Straybow strolls out and goes "hey bro I'll be your party wizard" you just immediately file him under that and don't think about it again.
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Apr 1, 2016 16:54
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megane posted:It's also poking at the reflex to assume that anyone who joins your party is automatically a good guy. RPGs always have you recruiting crazed religious psychos, assassins, former mad sorcerers... but the second they tell you they'll fight for you, they're 100% dedicated to the side of good forever. So when Straybow strolls out and goes "hey bro I'll be your party wizard" you just immediately file him under that and don't think about it again. It reminds me of the priest in Koudelka, the precursor to Shadow Hearts. They meet the main villain of the chapter, maybe the game I didn't get far enough, a young girl who was murdered and came back as an evil ghost - The priest spends the entire first half of the game stuck in a quagmire of the Just World Fallacy - "She must have done something to deserve it, she's evil!" Koudelka calls him out on his attitude though, and you can give any character any weapon so I gave him a sledgehammer so he was at least funny in battle. Koudelka's an rear end in a top hat too but she's funny about it - When called out of refusing an old couples hospitality early in the game she retorts "Well, I would have had some if it weren't poisoned!" The next part of the game is finding an antidote for the main male character.  Koudelka also has an excuse for her attitude - she is jaded because no one trusts her due to her witchcraft. BioEnchanted fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Apr 1, 2016 |
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Apr 1, 2016 17:42
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Hey Eevee, didn't you say at some point near the beginning of this LP that the max level any character can reach is 16? So is that rule no longer valid for the finale chapter?
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Apr 1, 2016 20:39
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Robindaybird posted:It's a bit unfair to hold use Chrono Cross as a typical example, that game was an absolute mess writing-wise - I think the closer example is Luke getting unilaterially blamed in Abyss despite the party knowing he has the literal knowledge of a seven year old and basically told to "Shut up, grown ups are talking" so of course he trust the only guy who gave him the time of day and not one character acknowledge they some part in that disaster for not telling him anything. Not to mention, Luke was literally being controlled like a marionette when he did the thing he did. The rest of the cast knew that he had no control over his actions (literally), and they still blame him for it. Man, the story in Tales of the Abyss really isn't very good.
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Apr 1, 2016 20:57
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Carbon dioxide posted:Hey Eevee, didn't you say at some point near the beginning of this LP that the max level any character can reach is 16? So is that rule no longer valid for the finale chapter?
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Apr 1, 2016 21:07
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MachuPikacchu posted:Not to mention, Luke was literally being controlled like a marionette when he did the thing he did. The rest of the cast knew that he had no control over his actions (literally), and they still blame him for it. Man, the story in Tales of the Abyss really isn't very good. Thing is, it wasn't explicitly the disaster itself that they told Luke to gently caress off over; it was his immediate "ITS NOT MY FAULT!" tangent that he went on right before the others told him to gently caress off. Hell, Ion even tries to admit his own error in the incident (re: opening the seal to begin with) but Anise, being Anise, pretty much goes "Ion, shut up, Luke doesn't deserve ANY sympathy." As I've put it before elsewhere, Luke was the gun while Van pulled the trigger; the gun was still involved in the murder, and Luke openly tried to deny even that much. .....TotA might be my favorite RPG (So I end up thinking about these things occasionally), yes.
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Apr 1, 2016 21:49
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Seiren posted:My guess would be that he meant that the effective cap is 16 because characters learn their last skill there, and that the value of encounters doesn't rise high enough for leveling past 16 to be worthwhile, not necessarily that its the hardcap. The Final Chapter lifts that restriction. Also some characters do learn techniques higher than 16 but in general that's their capstone. Edit: Also yes Chrono Cross is an atypical example because that particular section is one of the hallmarks of it's hellaciously bad writing. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Apr 1, 2016 |
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Apr 1, 2016 22:23
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In my defense while I own it, I have yet to play TotA, so I used the best example I had on hand.
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Apr 1, 2016 23:54
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I'm pretty sure I've only ever said that characters learn their final techniques at level 16. (That goes for all of them, too.) If there was a level cap during the previous chapters, I've never been aware of it. Also I happen to like Chrono Cross.  Just... y'know, ignore anything that happens inside Terra Tower.(You're all probably getting another update sometime today. I'm gonna start writing it in a few minutes.)
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Apr 2, 2016 00:34
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EponymousMrYar posted:No, it's specifically a hard cap. There are encounters that would grant you XP even at 16 in the chapters (even if it's 1-5 or so,) but you will not gain any once you hit there. I'm not aware of anyone getting moves after 16 aside from the Inheritor if you screwed up their training somehow so they don't have all their stuff at 16.
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Apr 2, 2016 01:27
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I wonder if Hash was basically one step away from being Odio all this time and he only held out because he went to live so far away from everyone that he'd never meet anyone to betray him.
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Apr 2, 2016 02:15
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Glazius posted:I wonder if Hash was basically one step away from being Odio all this time and he only held out because he went to live so far away from everyone that he'd never meet anyone to betray him. I have a feeling Hash never succeeded in saving the Queen. We never see her, no one ever says "Hash saved the Queen" they say "Hash killed the Demon King" so that likely could have been the reason he grew to hate people and moved far away
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Apr 2, 2016 02:17
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A note on the TotA bit: There's a scene near the beginning of the game where you get the sorcerer's ring and the fuzzy mascot it's stuck to, who will obligingly breathe fire when commanded. When called out on playing around with it in the middle of the forest, Luke claims that it wouldn't be his fault if the forest burned down, it'd be the fuzzy thing doing the fire breathing due to it being the source of the flames. The scene mentioned earlier is Luke suddenly finding himself on the other end of that.
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Apr 2, 2016 03:37
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Onmi posted:I have a feeling Hash never succeeded in saving the Queen. We never see her, no one ever says "Hash saved the Queen" they say "Hash killed the Demon King" so that likely could have been the reason he grew to hate people and moved far away She was pregnant with Alicia at the time, so Hash didn't completely gently caress up.
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Apr 2, 2016 05:46
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Unoriginal One posted:A note on the TotA bit: There's a scene near the beginning of the game where you get the sorcerer's ring and the fuzzy mascot it's stuck to, who will obligingly breathe fire when commanded. When called out on playing around with it in the middle of the forest, Luke claims that it wouldn't be his fault if the forest burned down, it'd be the fuzzy thing doing the fire breathing due to it being the source of the flames. The scene mentioned earlier is Luke suddenly finding himself on the other end of that. tales of the abyss is actually pretty good
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Apr 2, 2016 06:23
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  I found your dad Citan  
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Apr 2, 2016 07:58
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I just like the rare situation where the hero isn't afraid to call out that kind of wish-washy rear end in a top hat. Just respond to "Was is really my fault? Was I in the wrong?  " with "YES! It is entirely your fault, so stop bitching about it and do something!"I quite like how Supergirl dealt with Astra's uncertainty. She gets all emo about being beyond Kiara(?)'s faith, but ultimately is convinced to at least give it a shot and listen to her, at least as far as talking her husband down from betraying the DEO at a prisoner exchange. She mentions to Supergirl before she leaves that it isn't a truce, and her response is just "Let's call it a start  "There's also a cute line from her referring to her decision that I liked at the exchange discussing her niece with her niece's adoptive sister: "She has a powerful effect on people" BioEnchanted fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Apr 2, 2016 |
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Apr 2, 2016 08:14
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Update 30: Whirlwind Tour. Since Li already busted open her personal dungeon, we may as well take care of that while we’re up here.   The Dungeon of Technique is rather odd; there’s no random encounters at all, and the whole first room is nothing but a bunch of boulders blocking off different passages.  This rock… Each rock can be broken open with one and only one of Li’s techniques. Each specific boulder has a set move that corresponds to it, but if you don’t know it ahead of time, have fun trying each of these sixteen in turn. Why didn’t it work?You’ll get that line a whole lot. alcharagia posted:Actually, since the Dungeon of Technique is the same for all three Kung Fu people, the rocks only break from the Master's techniques, so that's 8 instead of 16. Still a pain, but less so. Fair point. Can't really argue with halving the problem.  When you do get it right, the sound effects for the move play and Li breaks the boulder apart. This first one responds to her ultimate technique, XuanYaLianShanQuan.  Regardless of which boulder you choose to break, three things await you. A passageway to the next big room, a treasure chest and a man who looks like the restaurant owner from Li’s chapter.   …This censorship of his kissyface was unintentional, but I’m not complaining. -------   So, uh… This is Voice Heart. He professes his love for whoever your main character is, has 800 HP, and is exceptionally weak. The worst thing he can do is use Sweet Whisper, which causes the target to be both drunk and asleep.   I think you know what happens next.  He does have a chance to drop these, at least.  The second big room has more boulders, but a few open passageways as well. Any that are already open lead back toward the first room and have a treasure chest of their own, but grabbing them now means fighting Voice Heart again for each and every one.  Instead, Li just breaks the nearest rock with Long Hu Liang PoWan and we move on.  Urgh…  The third big hall has only one rock, and that responds to LaoHuZhiWu (aka. Old Fox Dance).    Er… Oh, you’d better believe it! Eeeeeeek, whyyyyy!!   Despite the change of music, Voice Heart is still as weak and squishy as he ever was. This dungeon’s kinda weird.   The inheritor’s ultimate weapon doesn’t have much raw attack power, but the +20 to all four stats is quite nice.  Now that we’ve finished off that weirdo, we can go around and grab all the treasure chests with impunity. The total haul: Dynamite, Clack Case, Mermaid Bottom, Goddess Gauntlet (x2), Maria’s Veil, Baal Blood, Holy Water (x2), Amon Blood, Thick Chest Hair, Golden Hairpin, Chario Boots, Ice Helm.  A few of those items are new; the two blood items are for laying down fire and poison fields, while the Goddess Gauntlet is clearly caster armour. The Mermaid Bottom is similarly IQ-focused footwear, granting immunity to water fields and having your foot techs locked.   ...And that’s it for the Dungeon of Technique! Some of these take no time at all if you know what you’re doing.  As we head down from the mountain, there’s… whatever the hell that is, waiting off to the side.  For you who seek to be ever more powerful, smash the path open with your strength alone!! -------  Uhhh…  Is that a kappa with flaming wings riding an eel? (Edit: The thread pointed out it's more likely a crow tengu, and threw in telling me that the staff he's using is called a Gohei.) Li promptly kicks off 341 of its 448 HP. This weirdo’s even weaker than the last one.  Alright, so… The Dungeon of Strength is another unique little challenge.  It’s a straight shot north to Andre’s ultimate weapon, with eleven chests scattered around and no encounters.  It seems to be sealed by some kind of energy… The catch? Well, firstly you can’t open any of the chests. Not until you pick up that weapon.   And what a weapon it is!  That’s +90 Pw and +80 Vt! And if you give it to someone else as an offhand, they still get half of that. Okay, here’s the real catch. While all the chests are now unlocked, a random encounter hits me one step into the next room. Because the encounter rate has gone absolutely sky-high.     The Dungeon of Strength is also home to a handful of enemies you won’t see anywhere else…  As well as the ‘hell no’ formation. The Barocrests have a weak draining attack and no health, while the Horror Ship is basically like the flying fortress Bariki Daioh fought. It has 2032 HP and an EXP value of 4.   The Limber Scylla are one of the three formations with an EXP value over 18, offering 24. They do have one of Sonic’s stronger techs though, so you have to be a bit careful with them. The haul for this dungeon: Mermaid Bottom, Ice Helm, Bloody Magic Robe, Amethyst Shield, Goddess Gauntlet, Chario Boots, Holy Water, Magic Pendant…  …the second Gold Topknot…   …and two annoying fake-outs. In three screens, the game throws twenty encounters at me. Let’s never go back there again. -------  The last dungeon for our current party is the Waco Kid’s, which we’ll get a hint to whenever we’re passing through the area between the Naorigusa clearing and Devil’s Peak. The Kid’s horse runs off through the trees, and we have to follow.   It’s not really very difficult. South, east a little, north, east a little more, south, east…  …and then north, into the cave entrance hidden under the tree cover. Li’s one tile south of it right here.  The Waco Kid’s dungeon is the one that most ties into his chapter’s gimmick; it’s the Dungeon of Time, and we have eight bells to get in and out before bad things happen. If you’re sprinting constantly, you can get everything and get out in about six. There’s not a whole lot of room for error though… Unless Sonic is your protagonist, of course.   Go north, then west for these two items. Head through the far left door. Oh, and you may notice the latter of those two shots is a little darker than the other. That’s because the first bell already rang, and each bell makes the dungeon darker.  Take either path to the stairs…  Go around the holes to some Chario Boots… (Two bells already.)   Southwest exit, through the next room…  Hellooooo there, beautiful.   I don’t know about you, but I feel pretty lucky.    Three bells down, loot some Magical Wood from the chest and leave southwest. (Never use Magical Wood as a healing item. It heals a 3x3 area, then hurts the user. I’ve had it kill Li while I was trying to heal Andre.)   Four bells, going through the northeast door.   Oh yeah, I forgot to mention there’s no random encounters here. For obvious reasons.  Five bells, grab the Holy Water and go northeast.   Six bells, stumble through one last room before ending up back at the beginning.  Here’s what seven bells of darkness looks like. By this point, you’d probably be screwed.  (Silence.)Hyahehe…  You look absolutely delicious…  -------  Say hello to the Jaggy Eggs, a set of bosses with 384 HP each. They have a weak Spin Drive (as in Cube’s tech, 30-120 HP depending on target), Laser Sonic (40-100 HP to anyone hit) and Space Phage…  …which kinda hurts. They also have pretty high defence, but not enough that Dodegesden and Hurricane Shot won’t one-shot them. They have an EXP value of 13, a chance to drop a Magic Pendant…  …and a guarantee to give us another piece of Ariel equipment, as well as turning the lights back on.  15 Defence like the Amethyst Shield, and the same Petrify Immunity as the rest of the set. Very nice. That was a bit of a short update, but we’ve only got two more personal dungeons and three bonus bosses to go. We’ll take care of those next time, and then have one final update to take on Odio! Yapping Eevee fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 2, 2016 11:06
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Actually, since the Dungeon of Technique is the same for all three Kung Fu people, the rocks only break from the Master's techniques, so that's 8 instead of 16. Still a pain, but less so.
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Apr 2, 2016 11:22
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Andre/Masaru's dungeon is well worth it to go to the moment you're strong enough to get in, his weapon is is that good. While magic damage can still be an issue due to his non-existent IQ growth, physical attacks won't do much more than tickle him now.
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Apr 2, 2016 14:34
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I love the mental image of one of your party members hopping around while wearing a fish tail. "It's impractical, I know...but the stats are great!"
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Apr 2, 2016 15:41
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Yapping Eevee posted:
Not really... That is more of a crow demon then a kappa. Kappa are the turtle looking things 
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Apr 2, 2016 16:21
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It's also apparently controlling the eel with... bananas on a stick?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep posted:Apep (/ˈæˌpɛp/ or /ˈɑːˌpɛp/) or Apophis (/ˈæpəfᵻs/; Ancient Greek: Ἄποφις; also spelled Apepi or Aapep) was the ancient Egyptian deity who embodied chaos (ı͗zft in Egyptian) and was thus the opponent of light and Ma'at (order/truth). He appears in art as a giant serpent. 
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Apr 2, 2016 16:24
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Can we get a before and after with Andre's damage from his positively amazing weapon?
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Apr 2, 2016 16:26
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AlphaKretin posted:It's also apparently controlling the eel with... bananas on a stick? I think that's one of those japanese ceremonial rod things that have strips of cloth tied to the end. Dunno what they're called.
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Apr 2, 2016 16:33
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GilliamYaeger posted:I think that's one of those japanese ceremonial rod things that have strips of cloth tied to the end. Dunno what they're called. A gohei. And yeah, that looks more like a crow tengu than a kappa. Why a Japanese demon with a Shinto-based implement is riding an Egyptian snake, well... Square.
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Apr 2, 2016 17:24
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