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I meant the part where it's just a really terrible movie.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:38
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FactsAreUseless posted:Whedon's not far off of the same misogyny and exploitation, just with a veneer of presenting "strong women" and without that film's weak satire. Wow, you really take living up to your username seriously.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:41
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FactsAreUseless posted:Whedon's not far off of the same misogyny and exploitation, just with a veneer of presenting "strong women" and without that film's weak satire. I've heard this a lot but I've not seen it substantiated. Not saying it's untrue, just that I've never seen it qualified adequately.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:43
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Norwegian Rudo posted:Wow, you really take living up to your username seriously. This is the the saddest kind of ad hominem, when the only social cue on an anonymous forum is the username so you've got nothing else to jump on in the absence of a substantive rebuttal.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:51
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That's such a 2012 thing to say.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:52
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zoux posted:I've heard this a lot but I've not seen it substantiated. Not saying it's untrue, just that I've never seen it qualified adequately. have you seen avengers 2? literally everything black widow does is a parody of joss whedon's failures at writing women it's like how jeff daniels' character in the newsroom ends up a checklist for all of aaron sorkin's worst writing habits
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Apr 6, 2016 15:53
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Does anyone actually think Whedon is misogynistic because that's very silly lol. I don't think he's a feminist hero like some apparently do but he's far from a misogynist
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Apr 6, 2016 15:53
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Aphrodite posted:That's such a 2012 thing to say. Vintage 2009 if you ask me.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:53
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Escobarbarian posted:Does anyone actually think Whedon is misogynistic Over 60.000 hits on Google.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:57
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Escobarbarian posted:Does anyone actually think Whedon is misogynistic because that's very silly lol. I don't think he's a feminist hero like some apparently do but he's far from a misogynist his personal belief systems? No, I don't think Whedon is misogynist but it's hard to argue that the way black widow is written in avengers 2 isn't at the very least troubling, and i think it speaks more to how whedon is lazily sexist over actively sexist. like he's not a misogynist, he doesn't HATE WOMEN, but at the end of the day he writes the main and only female character of his blockbuster superhero epic as a snivelling damsel who exists to "Tame the beast inside" and it's hard not to see the parallels to emotionally abusive relationships when her main love interest is the hulk again i'm not saying tumblr is right, because they're not and specifically and repeatedly misinterpreting key scenes in the film to pretend that whedon's some woman-hating monster. but...the only reason that tumblr could misinterpret those scenes in the first place was because those scenes were there. every successful lie has a kernel of truth to it.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:57
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Toxxupation posted:the main and only female character of his blockbuster superhero epic Scarlet Witch is not amused.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:59
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Whedon thinks of "strong female characters" literally and has them all do kung fu.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:00
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less laughter posted:Scarlet Witch is not amused. oh right, she existed i literally forgot about that she wasn't too bad, tbh Okay, "main", not "main and only". apologies
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Apr 6, 2016 16:02
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Mu Zeta posted:Whedon thinks of "strong female characters" literally and has them all do kung fu. When you've watched years of Moffat's versions of "strong female character" Whedon's don't seem so bad at all tbh
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Apr 6, 2016 16:04
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Mu Zeta posted:Whedon thinks of "strong female characters" literally and has them all do kung fu. Willow, Tara, Anya, Kaylee. But as far as leads go, yeah.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:11
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zoux posted:I've heard this a lot but I've not seen it substantiated. Not saying it's untrue, just that I've never seen it qualified adequately. There's a reason Black Widow starts Avengers 1 tied to a chair.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:12
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I think the BW Avengers stuff is a pretty tortured reading that is useful for people who want to make something objectively rather than subjectively bad. You can't just say you don't like something anymore, it has to be racist or homophobic so that the media issue becomes a moral one.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:13
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zoux posted:I think the BW Avengers stuff is a pretty tortured reading that is useful for people who want to make something objectively rather than subjectively bad.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:14
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I was reading an article about the new Wonder Woman movie and the female director discussed giving the Amazonian warriors high heels because she likes long legs.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:16
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I'll be kicked out of the clubhouse for revealing this terrible secret, but many women like sexed up superhero costumes too.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:19
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Aphrodite posted:I'll be kicked out of the clubhouse for revealing this terrible secret, but many women like sexed up superhero costumes too. That's basically exactly what she said. "Guys like their Superman and Thor with massive muscles. I like slim figures and long legs."
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Apr 6, 2016 16:20
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Snak posted:Willow, Tara, Anya, Kaylee. Three of those are supernatural beings with superpowers
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Apr 6, 2016 16:20
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FactsAreUseless posted:Okay, but people don't like it because of how they see it reflecting a wider set of values. You can't take it out of that context. I think maybe there are a lot of people that are like that, and I'm certainly not accusing anyone itt otherwise, but I pause when the same genre fanbase that is so loving terrible about women in their media is suddenly massively concerned about how fake Whedon's feminism is.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:21
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zoux posted:I think maybe there are a lot of people that are like that, and I'm certainly not accusing anyone itt otherwise, but I pause when the same genre fanbase that is so loving terrible about women in their media is suddenly massively concerned about how fake Whedon's feminism is.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:23
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FactsAreUseless posted:Has it occurred to you that it's not the same individuals holding those opinions at the same time? Yes I believe that concern trolls exist.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:25
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I honestly mostly care about sexist writing because sexist writing is bad writing, and I care more about bad writing. Sure, I care about progressive representation and all that but if you end up writing a character the way whedon wrote black widow in avengers 2, you end up writing a one-dimensional hacky stereotype who has no real agency or authority in the story she's meant to be a star of. She's meant to enable the powerful white man in her life's greatness, over having any real individuality or authority of her own. It's a lovely, disingenuous way to write a character; sexism is almost an afterthought. As with most criticisms of Whedon there's enough ways to criticize his output from an empirical perspective that you can do so while barely touching on the troubling sociological implications of his work
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Apr 6, 2016 16:26
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Snak posted:For real. He didn't just bring back Lazarus, he went and brough himself back to, because by the end of season 5 they were already out of ideas and immediatly brought him back in the 3rd loving episode of season 6 because they had no idea where to go with it. But then the actor wanted out more than ever, since they were just writing pure garbage at that point (can you believe they actually filmed the scene where the cross itself talks?) so he "Ascended" right after coming back and still left the show. This is a great post.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:28
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zoux posted:Yes I believe that concern trolls exist.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:39
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FactsAreUseless posted:This is disingenuous and you know it. You're frustrated because "the same genre fanbase" holds opinions you see as incompatible, but that ignores the diversity of opinion within that fanbase. It doesn't mean that everyone who likes genre work and expresses issues with how women are written is concern trolling just because you assume all genre fic fans are "so loving terrible about women in their media" and just changing their minds due to an anti-Whedon conspiracy. Yeah I'm super frustrated about it. Mad even.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:42
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Oh sorry, I meant to say "you have absolutely no feelings on the subject, but are expressing them anyway, because
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Apr 6, 2016 16:44
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Aphrodite posted:Yeah but Joss Whedon never made Jennifer's Body, so point Whedon. Jennifer's Body isn't that bad, Adam Brody is pretty hilarious in it.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:46
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FactsAreUseless posted:all genre fic fans are "so loving terrible about women in their media" and just changing their minds due to an anti-Whedon conspiracy. wouldn't be surprised at all if this turned out to be true tbh. are we suggesting many genre fans aren't kinda dumb hypocrites?
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Apr 6, 2016 16:48
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FactsAreUseless posted:Oh sorry, I meant to say "you have absolutely no feelings on the subject, but are expressing them anyway, because Death of the Poster eh?
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Apr 6, 2016 16:50
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less laughter posted:Three of those are supernatural beings with superpowers And the fourth is a wizard with engines. I was responding to someone who said they all did kung fu. It's true, he almost always makes sure his strong characters have skills that give them agency in his settings.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:51
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Norwegian Rudo posted:Yup. Really liked the main character, and the sister was pretty good too. The plot needs more filling out as it is pretty simplistic right now, but I thought it was promising. It is so much better than the comic.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:02
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Snak posted:Willow, Tara, Anya, Kaylee. Willow is hardly what I'd call a "strong" female character, she was mousy and demure enough to rival most animes.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:21
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FactsAreUseless posted:The best way I've found to express my issues with Whedon is that he only creates women he wants to have sex with. Every woman character exists to be desirable - they can also have agency and plot significance, which is good, but only if they're also objects of fantasy. Dollhouse takes this to an extreme, but it's present in everything he does. River wasn't sexy
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Apr 6, 2016 19:59
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corn in the bible posted:River wasn't sexy Wheadon clearly thought she was in Serenity. Serenity was also a garbage fire though, so.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:31
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Apr 6, 2016 20:35
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FactsAreUseless posted:The best way I've found to express my issues with Whedon is that he only creates women he wants to have sex with. Every woman character exists to be desirable - they can also have agency and plot significance, which is good, but only if they're also objects of fantasy. Dollhouse takes this to an extreme, but it's present in everything he does. So women on TV are attractive, huh.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:40
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