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HIJK posted:You also called the ninja stuff an essential part of the Daredevil source material and that it was totally ridiculous to expect ninjaaaaas to not appear in the show. That is the definition of "it's that way in the comics so it has to be that way in the show." A Daredevil show without ninjas would be like an Ironman movie without high-tech titanium-alloy suits. Ninjas define Daredevil. They're a big part of the character's background.
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May 1, 2016 05:21
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enraged_camel posted:A Daredevil show without ninjas would be like an Ironman movie without high-tech titanium-alloy suits. Ninjas define Daredevil. They're a big part of the character's background. Season 1 of Daredevil managed to tell a story with the bare minimum of ninja aspects and those actual ninja aspects could have been trivially cut from the story with minimal loss to its central ideas, concepts and themes. Likewise almost all of the first part of Season 2 of Daredevil says the same. Apparently they're not that important to Daredevil. Edit: Like, if you just go by Daredevil Season 1, the central defining aspects of Daredevil are his religion, boxing and law. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:25 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 05:23
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The comics sound really dumb and bad.
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May 1, 2016 05:24
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ImpAtom posted:Yes? Your entire argument is that you want people to show deference to the comics which nothing should ever do, ever. If a product creates a massive deviation from the source material that is fine and no amount of 'it is that way in the comics' is any form of defense. The ninjas in Daredevil, the TV show, are in fact lovely and don't work for the concept they tried to do and while there is a theoretical execution that could make them work, it's far easier to imagine an execution that removes them entirely and results in a better story. That's not my argument. My argument is, and I have stated this numerous times to the point of exhaustion, that stating that ninjas cannot be in Daredevil because it's antithetical to the very concept of Daredevil, the TV show is a dumb and fundamentally flawed argument, not the least of which because they are central to the dynamic of Daredevil the comic, the source material upon which the TV show is based. It is a flawed and untrue criticism, when the criticism is that the specific way that ninjas were implemented in Daredevil the TV show is at fault. There is nothing about "deference", this isn't anything about whatever words you continue to aggressively put into my mouth about "that's the way it is in the comics", I'm saying that criticising a TV show based off a comic book for bringing in a central defining element of that comic book is stupid. Because it self-evidently is, because, and I can't wait to repeat this yet again when you intentionally misinterpret my words to make whatever point you say I'm making, it's a central defining element of the comic book. But let's forget all that. Remove every single Daredevil story of the past fifty years, now imagine the Daredevil TV show as established, which is a direct sequel to a movie in which a portal to another dimension where space bugs tried to invade Manhattan poured out, tried to implement magic ninjas. Black out everything but the MCU as established. Would you argue that's a fundamentally implausible or immersion-breaking plot development? Because if you are, that's silly. That, in and of itself, is a silly thing to argue. There's zero scenario where the conception of ninjas in the Daredevil TV show is a fundamentally flawed one. Not as TV show based off a comic book, not as a TV show within the larger Marvel canon established up to that point, and not even within the canon of the show that was specifically established within the season, unless you're going to honestly argue with me that the Punisher is somehow realistic when ninjas aren't. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 05:35 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 05:32
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ImpAtom posted:Season 1 of Daredevil managed to tell a story with the bare minimum of ninja aspects and those actual ninja aspects could have been trivially cut from the story with minimal loss to its central ideas, concepts and themes. Likewise almost all of the first part of Season 2 of Daredevil says the same. Apparently they're not that important to Daredevil. The first season's conflict only exists because a portal to another dimension opens up unleashing hellspawn that destroy Hell's Kitchen. It had the goofiness in its DNA from the start.
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May 1, 2016 05:35
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Toxxupation posted:That's not my argument. My argument is, and I have stated this numerous times to the point of exhaustion, that stating that ninjas cannot be in Daredevil because it's antithetical to the very concept of Daredevil, the TV show is a dumb and fundamentally flawed argument, not the least of which because they are central to the dynamic of Daredevil, the source material upon which the TV show is based. So you are stating exactly what you claim you're not stating. The TV show is not the comics. The fact they are in the comics is entirely meaningless because the comics are not the TV show and the TV show is not the comics. The fact that something in the source material of one doesn't mean a drat thing about the other. Toxxupation posted:The first season's conflict only exists because a portal to another dimension opens up unleashing hellspawn that destroy Hell's Kitchen. It had the goofiness in its DNA from the start. No it doesn't. It exists because a disaster occurred. The disaster could have been anything and they intentionally downplayed the Avengers elements to the point where the story didn't depend on them at all. It could have been an earthquake or a terrorist attack or anything of the sort and not a single thing in the story would change. (This is not true for Jessica Jones, to be fair, where the appearance of meta-humans is a much bigger factor.) Daredevel doesn't rely on the MCU and could exist without it without anything meaningful changing. The MCU is a dumb thing and the smartest thing both films and TV shows do is to acknowledge it as little as possible because it leads to horrible arguments like "Well, THOR takes place in the same universe!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:38 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 05:35
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ImpAtom posted:So you are stating exactly what you claim you're not stating. The TV show is not the comics. The fact they are in the comics is entirely meaningless because the comics are not the TV show and the TV show is not the comics. The fact that something in the source material of one doesn't mean a drat thing about the other. Are you seriously arguing that Daredevil the TV show isn't based on Daredevil the comic.
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May 1, 2016 05:38
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Toxxupation posted:Are you seriously arguing that Daredevil the TV show isn't based on Daredevil the comic. I am saying it doesn't matter that it is. It is its own story.
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May 1, 2016 05:39
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Toxxupation posted:The first season's conflict only exists because a portal to another dimension opens up unleashing hellspawn that destroy Hell's Kitchen. It had the goofiness in its DNA from the start. That's cool and good. I'd love it if more goofy poo poo showed up in Daredevil, they had some of that with Madame Gao anyway. But it has to be well done or else we just get more stupid schlocky poo poo and people going "it's part of the comics it's essential!!!" Put all the goofy poo poo in that you want, just loving do it well. If it can't be done well the leave it on the cutting room floor instead of loving up the show doing it.
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May 1, 2016 05:40
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ImpAtom posted:
No, it existed because a portal to another dimension opens up unleashing hellspawn that destroy Hell's Kitchen. Sorry you're unwilling and unable to justify this fact in your head, but that's what happened.
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May 1, 2016 05:40
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HIJK posted:That's cool and good. I'd love it if more goofy poo poo showed up in Daredevil, they had some of that with Madame Gao anyway. Yes. Finally. That's my whole loving argument. Thank god, someone who isn't ImpAtom-level dense gets my point.
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May 1, 2016 05:41
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enraged_camel posted:A Daredevil show without ninjas would be like an Ironman movie without high-tech titanium-alloy suits. Ninjas define Daredevil. They're a big part of the character's background. And yet they made season 2 suck, while season 1 functioned great with minimal ninja stuff. I don't think that's an accident. Toxxupation posted:Yes. Finally. That's my whole loving argument. Thank god, someone who isn't ImpAtom-level dense gets my point. Your argument this whole time has been "well in the COMICS the ninjas are AMAZING" and you've been really exercised about people pointing at the comic book Hand and going "hahaha they're too stupid to go on tv!" And then we discovered that they really don't work well on tv and should go on the cutting room floor, whuch you keep saying doesn't bother you but then you act really bothered by it. HIJK fucked around with this message at 05:46 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 05:42
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Toxxupation posted:No, it existed because a portal to another dimension opens up unleashing hellspawn that destroy Hell's Kitchen. Sorry you're unwilling and unable to justify this fact in your head, but that's what happened. No, it happened because a disaster occurred. There is no plot point in Daredevil that relies on it being an alien attack. It is intentionally written with as minimal reliance on the MCU as possible. Kingpin isn't trying to find a Chitauri artifact that was left behind, there's no ruined alien battleship sitting in the middle of the city, Daredevil didn't get his powers when Loki teleported back in time to shoot him in the face. The disaster that occurred could have been literally anything and in fact Daredevil downplays any element of it. Edit: The mere fact that you keep trying to point to "Thor exists in this universe" is why the MCU is terrible. It leads to people who care more about the connection between things than the things themselves. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:47 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 05:44
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Ninjas only function in small doses, this is even shown in shows about ninjas. One ninja? Unbelievable badass. Four-hundred ninjas? The Three Stooges could take them down with their shoes tied together.
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May 1, 2016 05:45
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ImpAtom posted:No, it happened because a disaster occurred. There is no plot point in Daredevil that relies on it being an alien attack. It is intentionally written with as minimal reliance on the MCU as possible. Kingpin isn't trying to find a Chitauri artifact that was left behind, there's no ruined alien battleship sitting in the middle of the city, Daredevil didn't get his powers when Loki teleported back in time to shoot him in the face. The disaster that occurred could have been literally anything and in fact Daredevil downplays any element of it. The whole point is that I'm willing to accept goofiness as, instead of something to be ashamed of, something that can make for better-even the absolute best-stories when written well, because it all boils down to execution. I don't care about the connection, I'm just willing to accept that it exists because it exists. There's nothing more bothersome to me than "comics fans" who pretend that comics medium-based things are only good when they're serious and realistic and weighty because it's both faux-pretentiousness and pretending that somehow a guy dressing up in his pajamas to fight crime, and being successful isn't inherently absurd. That the suspension of disbelief isn't predicated on that massive buy-in that superheroes aren't an absolutely insane concept. And it also pretends that comics medium-based works can only be serious or have fantastical elements, that it's impossible for both to exist or even help each other. It defines this tiny box that comics have to sit in, a tiny circle around "realism" that it can never ever stray outside, and makes for ugly and boring and unimaginative works.
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May 1, 2016 05:54
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What am I even reading, people who don't like ninja stuff in season two are saying ninjas are to blame? Do you just not like ninjas? Have you not seen the 1990 classic Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Ninjas are great. (and it is fun how DD inspired TMNT as has been mentioned) I really enjoyed DD season 2 all around, though the Black Sky plot element fell a little flat for me, but I think ninjas are generally a good thing. Can't wait for Punisher's series! I hope it's just by the book Punisher and doesn't focus entirely on that little hinted at government/military mystery thingy for him to investigate though. I'd prefer to see where they go with this character on the loose rather than focusing more on his past.
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May 1, 2016 05:57
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ImpAtom posted:I am saying it doesn't matter that it is. It is its own story. If it is then bringing in other plot elements from that source material isn't an inherently flawed idea, no? That it's the execution of those elements that would make them effective or not, yes?
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May 1, 2016 06:00
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Toxxupation posted:If it is then bringing in other plot elements from that source material isn't an inherently flawed idea, no? That it's the execution of those elements that would make them effective or not, yes? It is when you're bringing them in because they were in the source material which is what you keep arguing. "Daredevil HAS to have ninjas because they're in the comics!" Execution is bad for a reason. In the case of DDS2 it appears to be bad because they wanted to bring in a comic element without having good plans in place for it. Yes, in a theoretical universe, you can execute the ninja plotline well, but not when you're including it because the comics have ninjas or when you're expecting it to get a pass because the comic has ninjas. Toxxupation posted:It defines this tiny box that comics have to sit in, a tiny circle around "realism" that it can never ever stray outside, and makes for ugly and boring and unimaginative works. It's a good thing literally nobody is saying that but you. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:04 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 06:01
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ImpAtom posted:It is when you're bringing them in because they were in the source material which is what you keep arguing. "Daredevil HAS to have ninjas because they're in the comics!" Execution is bad for a reason. In the case of DDS2 it appears to be bad because they wanted to bring in a comic element without having good plans in place for it. You don't like the ninja war thingy, okay. I do like the ninja war thingy. I like that they're adapting many of the key elements of the historic influential Miller run on Daredevil. What are you even arguing about? Some people think it's classic Daredevil and should be in the show, you don't. Okay. Where's the thing to argue about?
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May 1, 2016 06:03
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Heavy Metal posted:You don't like the ninja war thingy, okay. I do like the ninja war thingy. I like that they're adapting many of the key elements of the historic influential Miller run on Daredevil. What are you even arguing about? Some people think it's classic Daredevil and should be in the show, you don't. Okay. Where's the thing to argue about? They should've recognized that it was poorly done and then made it good or done something else instead.
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May 1, 2016 06:05
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RareAcumen posted:They should've recognized that it was poorly done and then made it good or done something else instead. I thought it was pretty well done personally, especially compelling how hardcore devoted Stick is about it. If you don't like it I can see why you would prefer they tried something else, and others do like it or at least like having ninjas show up in Daredevil. Either way, this stuff on whether or not ninjas deserve a position on the show, to me it just doesn't seem like there's a lot to discuss on it. Just a random observation, but my two cents, ninjas are cool. And the 80s are back baby. Or more specifically, this talk that having ninjas would need "a pass"... I don't even comprehend. I just can't put myself in those shoes of anti-ninja prejudice. (editor's note: I actually love that song "Against the Ninja" by Dragon Sound, but I still am actually very much pro ninja) Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 06:19 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 06:13
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Heavy Metal posted:I thought it was pretty well done personally, especially compelling how hardcore devoted Stick is about it. If you don't like it I can see why you would prefer they tried something else, and others do like it or at least like having ninjas show up in Daredevil. Either way, this stuff on whether or not ninjas deserve a position on the show, to me it just doesn't seem like there's a lot to discuss on it. Just a random observation, but my two cents, ninjas are cool. And the 80s are back baby. Ninjas are fine, people just feel like their story was a downward trend after the Punisher's. At least when he was still in jail. I don't think ninjas can't be on the show. I just think they need to be written better or something.
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May 1, 2016 06:20
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RareAcumen posted:Ninjas are fine, people just feel like their story was a downward trend after the Punisher's. At least when he was still in jail. I'm glad you're not anti-ninja, but that other poster who said "or when you're expecting it to get a pass because the comic has ninjas" is clearly just coming in here all anti-ninja. Or rather, I just don't get the logic. Why would ninjas need a pass?
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May 1, 2016 06:24
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The only good ninja comic I've ever read was Dr. McNinja, which makes a lot of bank by making fun of ninja stereotypes.
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May 1, 2016 06:29
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Heavy Metal posted:I'm glad you're not anti-ninja, but that other poster who said "or when you're expecting it to get a pass because the comic has ninjas" is clearly just coming in here all anti-ninja. Or rather, I just don't get the logic. Why would ninjas need a pass? Oh, that argument was that the comic had ninjas in it but you don't gotta put ninjas in the show because as shown, it needed to be refined more and it just didn't keep the flow that the previous half of the show had. So, since they were not as good as the non-ninja parts of the show, you don't have to put something in just because it was in the comic. Like the rooftop confrontation with Matt and Frank. In the comics, that ends with Matt trying to shoot him only to find the gun won't fire. Punisher kills his target, Matt has to come to terms with the fact that he was willing to kill him to save someone else. They still had the confrontation but it went differently and it still worked. So tweak the ninjas just like that so they don't seem incongruous with the first half of the show.
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May 1, 2016 06:29
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RareAcumen posted:Ninjas only function in small doses, this is even shown in shows about ninjas. 
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May 1, 2016 06:32
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ImpAtom posted:Season 1 of Daredevil managed to tell a story with the bare minimum of ninja aspects and those actual ninja aspects could have been trivially cut from the story with minimal loss to its central ideas, concepts and themes. Likewise almost all of the first part of Season 2 of Daredevil says the same. Apparently they're not that important to Daredevil. No. Religion, boxing and law are the defining aspects of Matt Murdock. Mysticism and martial arts are the defining aspect of Daredevil. During the day he's a rational guy who mostly deals with worldly affairs. At night he fights ninjas and deals with the otherworldly. It is this divide that is the central point of his inner-conflict: he doesn't know what to believe. It is what makes him a multi-dimensional and interesting character. Season 1 had bare minimum mysticism because it was our introduction to Daredevil and he was a common street vigilante. He fought people at the docs, in warehouses and back alleys. Considering this, it made sense to tell a story that was more grounded in reality, i.e. his struggle against Kingpin and his criminal organization. But even back then the mystical elements had started to emerge. Matt just rejected them. Season 2 was supposed to be a continuation of this theme, with intensifying mystical phenomena that assaulted Matt's rationality until he couldn't reject it anymore. We got a bit of this towards the end, when he got his rear end handed to him by Nobu again and then finally, with considerable incredulity in his voice, said, "wait... you're dead..." It was only after he accepted that fact that he was able to beat Nobu. The problem was Punisher. He was simply too good, and completely stole Matt's spotlight in every shape and form. The showrunners must have realized this as well, since his involvement during the final rooftop fight included picking off ninjas one at a time with a rifle as opposed to mowing down hordes of ninjas with a minigun, despite the latter being strongly hinted at during an earlier scene. But yeah, the fact that the Punisher story took half a season to resolve meant the mystical elements had to be condensed to just six episodes, so of course they felt very half-assed. If they had left out Punisher (or maybe had Daredevil run into him once or twice and then lost him), introduced Elektra in episode 2 or 3 and then devoted the rest of the season to the exposition of things like Black Sky, reanimation of dead bodies, draining blood, etc. it would have felt a lot more compelling and satisfying.
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May 1, 2016 07:11
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enraged_camel posted:No. Religion, boxing and law are the defining aspects of Matt Murdock. Mysticism and martial arts are the defining aspect of Daredevil. During the day he's a rational guy who mostly deals with worldly affairs. At night he fights ninjas and deals with the otherworldly And once again you're talking about the comics, not the television show. Daredevil: The Television Show, is not Daredevil: The Comic. Claiming something is a 'defining element of the character' when it isn't present in the television show is meaningless because the television show proved that you could tell a Daredevil story with little to none of that so-called defining element. Punisher didn't 'steal the show' away from the mystical elements. He was a stronger thematic match than the poorly shoved-in ninja stuff that is in because the comics had it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:17 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 07:14
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As a Shadow-Assassin-American, this thread is making me deeply uncomfortable. I don't think it is appropriate for non-Ninjas to use that word.
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May 1, 2016 07:15
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ImpAtom posted:And once again you're talking about the comics, not the television show. Let me put it this way: it's not that the TV Daredevil is different than the Comics Daredevil. It's that the TV Daredevil has not yet become the Comics Daredevil. We're watching an origin story. As time goes by, the show will become more and more immersed in mysticism. We're already seeing this: Season 1 had little of it, Season 2 had more of it.
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May 1, 2016 07:33
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enraged_camel posted:Let me put it this way: it's not that the TV Daredevil is different than the Comics Daredevil. It's that the TV Daredevil has not yet become the Comics Daredevil. It never will be. Regardless of what it does it has already become a different story with different characters and different plots. Ben Urich is dead, Elektra wasn't killed by Bullseye, and the general themes and ideas of the story are very different. It probably will become more mystical but that is because they want to build up to their crossover TV show and not because it is necessary to properly convey Daredevil. I mean I'm not foolish enough to argue that Daredevil won't end up becoming magical ninjas everywhere because Iron Fist is gonna show up and they're gonna team up with Luke Cage and Jessica Jones to punch... someone? I just don't think that necessarily works in the show's favor.
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May 1, 2016 07:38
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Saying the ninja weren't done well is fine, they weren't. Saying that a Daredevil TV show shouldn't have ninja is like saying Superman the TV show shouldn't have Lex Luthor. Sure he fights other people but, regardless of how the character is handled, Luthor has always been a part of the Superman story.
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May 1, 2016 07:38
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ImpAtom posted:It never will be. Regardless of what it does it has already become a different story with different characters and different plots. We're not talking about plots. We're talking about themes. Please stop moving goalposts.
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May 1, 2016 07:42
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enraged_camel posted:We're not talking about plots. We're talking about themes. Please stop moving goalposts. Literally the next line I posted: quote:Ben Urich is dead, Elektra wasn't killed by Bullseye, and the general themes and ideas of the story are very different.
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May 1, 2016 07:44
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Ninjas are just guys with swords, man. It's all about how they are used
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May 1, 2016 07:45
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ImpAtom posted:Literally the next line I posted: I already responded to that.
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May 1, 2016 07:45
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enraged_camel posted:I already responded to that. ... what? 
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May 1, 2016 07:46
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ImpAtom posted:Elektra wasn't killed by Bullseye At this point in the show's continuity, Elektra is only so dead.
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May 1, 2016 07:52
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ImpAtom posted:... what? You have severe reading comprehension issues, dude. ImpAtom posted:the general themes and ideas of the story are very different. enraged_camel posted:Let me put it this way: it's not that the TV Daredevil is different than the Comics Daredevil. It's that the TV Daredevil has not yet become the Comics Daredevil. We're watching an origin story. As time goes by, the show will become more and more immersed in mysticism. We're already seeing this: Season 1 had little of it, Season 2 had more of it. Put it simply: yes, the general themes and ideas are currently more grounded in reality. But they are undeniably becoming less so. The fact that we had Kingpin and Punisher stories doesn't mean the show was trying to "prove" that Daredevil can be done without ninjas. It just means that ninjas would be thematically inappropriate for a street fighter in a makeshift beanie-mask. But as he grows in strength and competence, and learns more about both this world and others, he'll face more mystical challenges and become more similar to the Daredevil in the comics (who also started out fighting common street thugs, by the way).
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May 1, 2016 07:54
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enraged_camel posted:You have severe reading comprehension issues, dude. So you responded to it with something you posted beforehand and then accused me of moving the goalposts despite me specifically saying the thing I said which you edited out of you response?
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May 1, 2016 08:06
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