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I'm pretty sure that's just the setup for him being the Blacksmith. The Blacksmith's whole thing was that he was able to take over the drug trade because he had top quality heroin straight from the middle east. He was already dirty when he was still in the military, Frank found out. I'm sure the Punisher season will go into it, but it doesn't seem very mysterious to me.
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May 1, 2016 22:30
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The punisher stuff seemed to like foreshadowing for the plot of one of the MAX arcs, Up is down and black is white, where Frank and an ex CIA agent he sometimes sleeps with hunt down a spookiest of the spooks who was married to Frank's CIA squeeze. Dude is sending heroin into the US through GI's body bags. Oh wait that's from the first MAX arc already. I guess my point is they can crib a lot from MAX and that should make most punisher fanboys happy, I know I would be and I will scream like a little girl if they introduce Barracuda.
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May 1, 2016 22:50
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I will be really surprised if we get a comic-accurate Barracuda considering the dude is a giant bundle of negative stereotypes that barely or doesn't at all, (depending on who you ask) work and it would take like nothing at all for a poor showrunner to create something staggeringly offensive out of him.
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May 1, 2016 22:55
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Zefiel posted:The punisher stuff seemed to like foreshadowing for the plot of one of the MAX arcs, Up is down and black is white, where Frank and an ex CIA agent he sometimes sleeps with hunt down a spookiest of the spooks who was married to Frank's CIA squeeze. Dude is sending heroin into the US through GI's body bags. Oh wait that's from the first MAX arc already. I guess my point is they can crib a lot from MAX and that should make most punisher fanboys happy, I know I would be and I will scream like a little girl if they introduce Barracuda. Or could do Welcome Back Frank and go after the Gnuccis. Berenthal showed that Welcome Back Frank was the first thing Marvel gave to him to start familiarizing himself with Frank Castle and get into his head.
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May 1, 2016 23:48
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Cythereal posted:I think the issue at stake is less that the ninjas are dumb or bad in and of themselves than that the ninjas in season 2 are used and executed poorly. Pretty much this. Someone is arguing that Ninjas are at the central core of Daredevil. I and other posters cited examples of great DD stories that had no ninjas at all. Myself, and others, seem to be saying it's OK to have some ninja poo poo but felt, in this series, it was poorly done. I happen to agree and think that the best DD comics put most of that mystical poo poo to the side. Ninjas are no more central the character of Daredevil than symbiotes are to Spiderman. It's just one of the element of the arc and the lore that some people like and some don't. In this series, consensus seems to be that it didn't entirely work or translate well to the world they built and to the overall story. I find that to be fair criticism and I loved both seasons of DD anyway. Ninja edit (heh): CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:such as? In addition to what Heavy Metal wrote, that thing where Karen went in Frank's house and that weird van pulled up. It was never alluded to again. Who the gently caress were those guys? BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 23:54
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Cythereal posted:Or could do Welcome Back Frank and go after the Gnuccis. Berenthal showed that Welcome Back Frank was the first thing Marvel gave to him to start familiarizing himself with Frank Castle and get into his head. Only if we get big Kevin Nash as The Russian again! Or just cast Kevin Nash for something anyway.
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May 1, 2016 23:54
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Heavy Metal posted:Only if we get big Kevin Nash as The Russian again! Or just cast Kevin Nash for something anyway. The zoo scene would be something to behold in this series' hands.
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May 2, 2016 01:14
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BiggerBoat posted:Ninjas are no more central the character of Daredevil than symbiotes are to Spiderman. It's just one of the element of the arc and the lore that some people like and some don't. In this series, consensus seems to be that it didn't entirely work or translate well to the world they built and to the overall story. He learned how to fight and use his senses via the tutelage of an old blind ninja. That's pretty central to the character. Like, right after being Catholic and just before being a lawyer central. You can definitely do good Daredevil stories without any other ninjas showing up and the execution of the Hand story line left much to be desired. However since Matt is a ninja trained by a ninja with the purpose of fighting in an ancient ninja war, there's always going to be ninja poo poo going on.
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May 2, 2016 02:38
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Gyges posted:He learned how to fight and use his senses via the tutelage of an old blind ninja. That's pretty central to the character. Like, right after being Catholic and just before being a lawyer central. You can definitely do good Daredevil stories without any other ninjas showing up and the execution of the Hand story line left much to be desired. However since Matt is a ninja trained by a ninja with the purpose of fighting in an ancient ninja war, there's always going to be ninja poo poo going on. 2 things really; 1) No-one is saying that they should have retroactively gone back and deleted Stick from S1 of DD. We've already seen Stick, everyone is on board the Stick train. Stick existing has nothing (literally nothing) to do with the complaint of "The Hand were not good in Season 2 of DareDevil". He rejected Sticks war, that could have stuck easily enough, but they chose to make about a third of the season very ninja-heavy without stopping to think if "Matt fights eleven billion ninjas" was good TV. 2) Considering that Stick wasnt created for seventeen years after DareDevil was created, how central to the character is he really?
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May 2, 2016 10:38
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Nobody cares about pre-Frank Miller Daredevil.
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May 2, 2016 10:45
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LegalPad posted:I'm totally with you on the ninja argument, but I'm just starting to watch through Jessica Jones right now and the show is kind of awful. It's tries so hard, so loving hard, to make Jessica Jones edgy and sarcastic but Krysten Ritter just can't sell her lines. Moss, Tennant, and pretty much every other main character out-acts Ritter's cold, emotionless gaze in every scene. So what you're saying is that she acted the traumatized orphan who is afraid of forming emotional ties to prevent hurting others and getting hurt perfectly. I agree.
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May 2, 2016 11:08
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SiKboy posted:2 things really; Wait, do we care or do we not care about things being in the comics with regard to the show? Because the argument seems to be that it doesn't matter if people are just drowning in ninjas in the comics, but please look at the comics to see these non-ninja things as those are important. Though it is a somewhat moot point since regardless of the comics, in the show Stick is not a retcon but instead a very foundation part of Matt's childhood. The problem is that instead of just talking about the merits of the Hand in season 2, people are making arguments about whether or not ninjas even belong in the show. It doesn't matter about how grounded and antithetical to ninjas you felt season 1 was, how many metric tons of ninjas are in the comics, when ninjas first show up in the comics, or the percentage of ninja stories to non ninja stories in the comic. In season 1 we learn that Matt is a ninja trained by a ninja who despite turning his back on the ninja war had to have a ninja fight. It doesn't matter how core concept you think ninjas are in the comic, in the show it's Catholicism wrapped in ninjutsu, wrapped in lawyering, steeped in super senses, and then topped off with a little My Boxer Dad. So instead of talking about whether or not Thors and Aliens justify Ninjas or how many good comic stories don't involve ninjas, let us instead focus on how/why the plot element of the Hand was poorly executed in season 2.
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May 2, 2016 11:35
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Gyges posted:Wait, do we care or do we not care about things being in the comics with regard to the show? Because the argument seems to be that it doesn't matter if people are just drowning in ninjas in the comics, but please look at the comics to see these non-ninja things as those are important. Though it is a somewhat moot point since regardless of the comics, in the show Stick is not a retcon but instead a very foundation part of Matt's childhood. Personally I couldnt give a poo poo about the comics with regards to the show; I've said it before and I'll say it again, when someone is adapting ANY work from one medium to another they should pick out the parts that will work in the new medium, change the parts which would work with some tweaking and feel 100% free to bin everything else. Turbonerds will piss and moan that its not a 1:1 adaptation of the original work, but they would have found something to piss and moan about anyway, and in any case we all know that they will still watch it regardless. Stuff which worked in a comic in the 60s will not necessarily work in live action in the 2010s. My point is really if you are going to defend the Hand in season 2 with "well, of course there are ninjas, its daredevil" then its completely fair to point out the mountains and mountains of daredevil comics which feature zero ninjas (or at least zero ninjas who arent named characters). Most people arent arguing "There shouldnt be ninjas in daredevil". They are arguing "These ninjas shouldnt have been in daredevil, because these ninjas sucked". (And once again, while I personally thought the ninjas were the weakest part of the season, I didnt actually hate them. I just thought they were kind of dull). Would cutting the ninjas out entirely have lifted the average quality of the seaons? Probably. Could they have made changes to the ninjas to make it work on screen? Of course they could. Again, literally any concept will work if you nail the execution. Obvious changes to me would be to reduce the number of ninjas, but give a few more of them names and distinguishing characteristics. I dont think there was a second named one apart from Nobu, and as this isnt the 80s no-one is impressed by seeing a character mow down dozens of nameless faceless ninjas. That poo poo worked when "ninja" was a new and impressive concept for western viewers, but it absolutely is lame as gently caress after 30 years of bottom of the barrel action movies with ninjas as the villains. Instead give the hand a couple of named guys, and show they can do something impressive, so that fights with daredevil have some weight and a sense of risk. I think a lot of people would have been a bit happier if the Hands motivations were better spelled out (The "but what about the hole?" criticism). Personally I'm happy enough to leave it a little opaque because I'm fairly confident that it is a plot thread, not a plot hole (so to speak) which will be picked up in either the defenders or DD S3. They probably should have had Stick go into some kind of detail about what the "rules" for hand ninja ressurection are at least to give us an idea of whether the ninjas come back to life, have to be brought back to life, are all already dead before they join the hand or whatever.
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May 2, 2016 12:37
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enraged_camel posted:So what you're saying is that she acted the traumatized orphan who is afraid of forming emotional ties to prevent hurting others and getting hurt perfectly. Yeah and Hayden Christensen was just playing a teenager who had seen a lot.
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May 2, 2016 13:44
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Aphrodite posted:Yeah and Hayden Christensen was just playing a teenager who had seen a lot. You can gently caress right off with that comparison. Holy poo poo.
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May 2, 2016 13:52
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enraged_camel posted:So what you're saying is that she acted the traumatized orphan who is afraid of forming emotional ties to prevent hurting others and getting hurt perfectly. Im saying she was poorly casted and didn't sell her lines. But any acting flaw can be handwaved as the character's trauma, so w/e. Checkmate I lose.
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May 2, 2016 14:37
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SiKboy posted:2) Considering that Stick wasnt created for seventeen years after DareDevil was created, how central to the character is he really? Ehhhhh, he's part of the first real push of "Hey, lets make an actual character out of this, with depth" storytelling for the character. Rather than the wacky days of "This is my twin brother....Mike. Mike Murdoc. Who isn't blind." storytelling in ye olden days. So there is certainly a Daredevil before that point, but most of the bedrock assumptions people think of as "Daredevil" aren't really settled until then.
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May 2, 2016 14:51
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LegalPad posted:Im saying she was poorly casted and didn't sell her lines. But any acting flaw can be handwaved as the character's trauma, so w/e. Checkmate I lose. No, it just sounds like you are unable to empathize.
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May 2, 2016 18:53
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Not connecting with someone's acting style = inability to empathize?
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May 2, 2016 18:55
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HIJK posted:Not connecting with someone's acting style = inability to empathize? He didn't say he didn't "connect with" her acting style. He said she was "poorly casted and didn't sell her lines."
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May 2, 2016 19:15
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enraged_camel posted:He didn't say he didn't "connect with" her acting style. He said she was "poorly casted and didn't sell her lines." Which means in his opinion she wasn't very good at it. If someone doesn't like think the actor was good in the role then that means that there wasn't anything in the performance for the audience member to connect with, or else the performance would have been sold to that audience member. In my opinion anyway. In any case, not liking the actress doesn't mean a lack of empathy, it's just a difference of opinion.
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May 2, 2016 19:20
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HIJK posted:Not connecting with someone's acting style = inability to empathize? I feign having emotions every day so that sounds about right for why I didn't care for JJ's acting. Or the show in general really.
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May 2, 2016 19:21
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I liked her in the show.
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May 2, 2016 19:27
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I kind of agree, JJ was a weird show overall. It had so much kind of good stuff in it? But also so much bad stuff in it. The acting was all over the place
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May 2, 2016 19:27
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I generally liked the actress in JJ, though I felt she sold the rage better than the disaffected hurt. The scene where she trashes the empty room while yelling at the couple trying to kill her was really, really great, and her scenes with Luke were really great as well.
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May 2, 2016 20:14
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Zzulu posted:I kind of agree, JJ was a weird show overall. It had so much kind of good stuff in it? But also so much bad stuff in it. The acting was all over the place I liked it but it felt like the whole Nuke thing got crammed in with odd timing. Really should have held that for a season. That said what both it and Daredevil season 1 had is this "Move, counter-move, every episode pushes the plot forward in some way" tempo that Daredevil lost in the second half this season. I really hope they focus on the same kind of thing in future Marvel seasons on Netflix. I like seeing the heroes make the villains make a plan, and sometimes the villains plan wins out; you can kind of describe DD and JJ season 1 I think as a bit of a "Chess game" style plot. There's probably a better term for it. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 00:15 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 00:12
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Speaking as someone who only has the most basic understanding of Daredevil comics and who finally got around to watching the second season, the ninja stuff was pretty bad. And I don't mean just ninjas being there was the bad thing - Stick and Nobu worked fine in the first season. The ninja stuff was bad because for a season and a half every fight DD got in was tense and brutal, and then suddenly he's fighting dozens of faceless mooks straight out of a Power Rangers episode and with about as much tension as you got in fights with those putty guys. The problem is not that Daredevil was trained by a ninja or that ninjas were in the show. The problem was that the ninjas in the show were done shittily.
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May 3, 2016 01:00
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HIJK posted:I generally liked the actress in JJ, though I felt she sold the rage better than the disaffected hurt. The scene where she trashes the empty room while yelling at the couple trying to kill her was really, really great, and her scenes with Luke were really great as well. I'm wearing my mask of being a working human being right now so I can say I agree and that that part was really good. WarLocke posted:Speaking as someone who only has the most basic understanding of Daredevil comics and who finally got around to watching the second season, the ninja stuff was pretty bad. Yeah, when he's fighting ninjas, he's doing all these weird flip kicks like someone just whipped the rug out from under his feet and it makes me wish he'd just roundhouse or pilebomb someone instead.
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May 3, 2016 01:02
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WarLocke posted:Speaking as someone who only has the most basic understanding of Daredevil comics and who finally got around to watching the second season, the ninja stuff was pretty bad. Yeah. There isn't a single TV show or movie where fighting dozens of faceless mooks works well. I'm surprised however that Marvel especially keeps making the same mistake over and over. Avengers 1, Avengers 2, Iron Man 3...
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May 3, 2016 01:07
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I think The Hand were done poorly in this series because in the comics, the Hand usually aren't terribly frightening because they're incredibly skilled fighters. They're a threat because of their sheer numbers. Similar to HYDRA in that cut off one hand, two more take its place, you kill one ninja and then there are three more almost out of thin air. And some of the better Hand stories usually involve another villain taking over. But what's the most in numbers we ever saw of the Hand? Maybe two dozen, if that?
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May 3, 2016 01:54
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WarLocke posted:Speaking as someone who only has the most basic understanding of Daredevil comics and who finally got around to watching the second season, the ninja stuff was pretty bad. This is pretty much how I feel, but you have people arguing that Ninjas are "essential to the character" and odd things like that so i'ts sort of a non starter as an argument if that's someone's stance. My favorite DD comics had no ninjas at all in them. I never considered them central to the character at all and I love DD comics. Brubaker, Bendis and even Miller wrote great issues and several arcs with hardly a ninja in sight.
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May 3, 2016 02:10
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BiggerBoat posted:This is pretty much how I feel, but you have people arguing that Ninjas are "essential to the character" and odd things like that so i'ts sort of a non starter as an argument if that's someone's stance. Season 1 had ninjas and I feel it made great use of them between Stick and Nobu. In season 2, it felt like Daredevil had leveled up in a video game and the new faceless mooks who put up a hard fight at first but then die in droves are now ninjas instead of gangsters.
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May 3, 2016 02:13
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The endless sea of ninjas might have worked. Start out with Matt and Elektra just mowing through them. Then they start to get tired from beating up so many ninjas, and there's no end in sight. It could work, but you need more than 5 guys on screen at at time and more than 30 total. Ninjas pretty much need to be endless waves or a couple super ninjas.
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May 3, 2016 13:12
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The ninjas have the same problem as the League of Assassins in Arrow. You have these guys that are supposed to be training endlessly to be super killers and then the heroes that have had similar but maybe not quite as pervasive training just mow through them in droves. It really makes the organizations they are part of look like jokes even if when they aren't fighting the heroes (so killing cops or whatever) they are invincible. It's a problem with them talking up the Hand as this incredible threat that they have to stop and then two people that fight really well with limited or no superpowers just beat the gently caress out of all of them. It didn't help that Frank made it clear that guns and distance beat ninjas as well. The gangs in the first movie weren't trained assassins so when Daredevil beak them all up it didn't feel as goofy and cartoony. I'm of the opinion that Ninjas in general are silly and a something that should have been left in the '80/90s. Even Garfield and Friends in the early 90's was even making fun of how played out they were as a concept, GARFIELD. I understand that anything can be made cool if it's written well enough but honestly ninjas have become the epitome of something that tries to be cool and menacing and ends up silly and I think that effort could be spent elsewhere. One guy knowing ninjitsu who works for the Yakuza? That's cool. A swarm of guys in black suits jumping around New York makes the show seem like a Saturday morning cartoon, which is as dated a reference as ninjas. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:02 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 13:53
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Think about how much time the show spent getting to know Kingpin in season one. We, the viewers, got a pretty good look at what makes him tick, why he does the things he does. Then compare to Nobu who has maybe two lines in all of season 2.
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May 3, 2016 14:17
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I think the show was trying to keep the ninjas mysterious, present without anyone figuring out what they were up to outside of Stick and friends - an outside context villain, or maybe a villain that belongs in a context that Murdock actively avoids, and Foggy and Karin and Frank are completely ignorant of. Which in turn leads to the execution problem: Nobu was more mysterious and threatening in one episode in season 1 than every ninja combined over the entire season in 2.
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May 3, 2016 14:44
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Yeah like if you had some people get killed by some mysterious enemy that just happens to be a ninja clan, you see the aftermath, and it builds this fear that anyone can be offed at any time which then culminates in some one on one fight with Nobu that's not bad. It's when you have these constant mass ninja battles that it starts looking like GI-Joe and the tone shift was so strong from season 1 and the Punisher story line you could hear the grinding as they shifted gears so badly. At least with the gang members they have human faces and you can somewhat see he is beating up real people. When they take the mask of that one ninja Elektra killed and were like "he's just a boy  " and then five minutes later Matt doesn't give a poo poo she's killing a ton of them as long as the blood isn't on his hands technically it comes off really clunky.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 15:09 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 15:05
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Radish posted:The ninjas have the same problem as the League of Assassins in Arrow. You have these guys that are supposed to be training endlessly to be super killers and then the heroes that have had similar but maybe not quite as pervasive training just mow through them in droves. It really makes the organizations they are part of look like jokes even if when they aren't fighting the heroes (so killing cops or whatever) they are invincible. It's a problem with them talking up the Hand as this incredible threat that they have to stop and then two people that fight really well with limited or no superpowers just beat the gently caress out of all of them. It didn't help that Frank made it clear that guns and distance beat ninjas as well. But it was in the comics???? I don't understand how something can be bad if it was in the comics first,
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May 3, 2016 15:47
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They had the Punisher in the first half, so the theme of the season was already 90s child power fantasy. Ninjas fit right in.
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May 3, 2016 15:57
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The first part was dealing with the idea that the Punisher's "kill 'em all and let God sort em out" ideology doesn't necessarily work, is incredibly black and white thinking, the result of some really hosed up poo poo, and it also robs his victims of any chance of redemption. Maybe the people he is killing would re-offend and victimize others but maybe they wouldn't and also who is he specifically to make that call? Then in the second half of the season after he is broken out they decided that well, Frank is just amazing with knowing who is Bad and who is Good and criminals are monsters and will end up doing crimes again anyway. He's also SO GOOD AT KILLING that he never kills innocents accidentally with stray fire. The Punisher at that point definitely is the child power fantasy but they initially seemed to be setting it up as a deconstruction of that mindset with Daredevil as the opposing viewpoint. However when you look at Kingpin, the laughably and blatantly corrupt New York prison system, the police's inability to do much of anything, let alone protect the citizens under their care, without the help of Daredevil or the Punisher it makes Daredevil's argument of letting the system do its job look incredibly weak. It's why I'm not sure the Punisher can carry a show as the protagonist without being careful.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:16 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 16:08
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