UKRIPMT June 2016: #Boxit

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How will you be voting in the UKEU Referendum? This poll is closed.
Remain - Keep Britane Strong!	328	15.40%
Leave - Take Are Sovreignity Back!	115	5.40%
Remain - But only because Brexit are crazy	506	23.76%
Leave - But only because the EU is terrible	157	7.37%
Spoiled Ballot - This whole thing is an awful idea	61	2.86%
I'm not going to vote	19	0.89%
I'm not allowed to vote	411	19.30%
Pissflaps	533	25.02%
Total:	2130 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Prince John posted:

I found it a slightly liberating book for the passages that dealt with undue special treatment and respect given to religion. I don't think atheists should go around being dicks about it, but it was a viewpoint I hadn't particularly considered until then.

Do you have an online reference for that section? I have a feeling I'd disagree with it but I should probably read it before I do.

E: 1933, Harry Beck earns a special place in my heart for drawing and publicising the first logical Underground map rather than basing it on geography. Unfortunately not everyone agrees with this obvious improvement and people persist on drawing geographical maps of what are essentially black box transport systems instead of nice sensible straight lines connecting to evenly spaced dots.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jun 7, 2016

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:07

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# ? May 9, 2024 23:38

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Being a young angry kid in a heavily religious society can be really frustrating, and reading stuff like Dawkins can be really cathartic. It's just not anything you should keep referring to if you're actually interested in logic stuff, skepticism, or philosophy.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:08

ShaneMacGowansTeeth: May 22, 2007; I think this is it... I think this is how it ends

I'm currently in the USA where on a TV show I caught while flicking through the channels they are still peddling the "over 100 areas of the UK are sharia no-go zones". And the reaction to Sadiq Khan being elected mayor of London can best be described as "a Muslim mayor? the gently caress are you idiots doing putting a terrorist in charge?"

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:11

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

The SNP are on a roll accusing the Tories of patronising to the (female) SNP justice spokeswoman regarding the Snooper's Charter.

The Tories appeared to be two steps away from telling Joanna Cherry and Anne McLaughlin to "calm down dear".

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:14

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:

I'm currently in the USA where on a TV show I caught while flicking through the channels they are still peddling the "over 100 areas of the UK are sharia no-go zones". And the reaction to Sadiq Khan being elected mayor of London can best be described as "a Muslim mayor? the gently caress are you idiots doing putting a terrorist in charge?"

To be fair I've gotten that reaction from everyone I know in Israel (shocking I know). Even the lefties are putting on brave faces for Sadiq there. Outside of Israel I probably get that reaction to Sadiq more than 2/3rds of the times.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:16

Chocolate Teapot: May 8, 2009

Fans posted:

Don't waste your time. You can't kick water uphill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXhKzY0BKwY

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:17

EmptyVessel: Oct 30, 2012

Guavanaut posted:

I don't suppose this prompted any introspection about how the human mind is predisposed to generate such self-defeating conclusions, in the same way that many animals are predisposed to superstition? Or any more nuanced analysis of epistemology?

Gonna need some sources for the bolded bit - ideally from ethology.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:21

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

And here my main worry about Khan was that he seems a bit of a blairite.

Why on earth are people terrified of loving Muslims? There's loads of them in the country, you'd know if they were a public hazard.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:23

hookerbot 5000: Dec 21, 2009

OwlFancier posted:

Do you have an online reference for that section? I have a feeling I'd disagree with it but I should probably read it before I do.

It's the second part of chapter one I think, 'Undeserved Respect'. I can't find it online though, and all reviews are incredibly biased one way or another. Here is one as an example http://consider.org/blog/2007/08/a-review-of-richard-dawkins-the-god-delusion-part-iv/

I enjoyed the God Delusion. From reading the introduction it felt like Richard Dawkins wrote his books on evolution without really being all that fussed about the religious aspect (obviously not believing but not trying to start a fight) but then got so much hate mail and bile that he cracked and wrote the God Delusion.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:28

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

OwlFancier posted:

And here my main worry about Khan was that he seems a bit of a blairite.

Why on earth are people terrified of loving Muslims? There's loads of them in the country, you'd know if they were a public hazard.

Because loads of people think that all musselmems are terrorists and are just waiting for their opportunity to strike. The sharia no go zones are good examples. I've also heard that Luton has a majority Muslim population and they run the city as they please (it's actually the 3rd highest Muslim percentage population in a city in the UK at 24%)

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:29

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/740195219388391424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:32

ShaneMacGowansTeeth: May 22, 2007; I think this is it... I think this is how it ends

To be fair, most actual Americans I've met have called the no go and Khan stuff as the bullshit it is. I don't think I've even met anyone who is considering voting for Trump either

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:33

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

EmptyVessel posted:

Gonna need some sources for the bolded bit - ideally from ethology.

It's one of those things that originally came from Skinner's study of pigeons, that occasionally makes waves of agreement or dismissal in some philosophy of science types, 'superstition in the pigeon' iirc.

And always ends up as 'define superstition'. The best to an answer that doesn't disappear straight down the rabbit hole of umwelt, and that may have been backed up by modern neurology although dead salmon goes here, is that behavioral patterns that are at least the precursors of human superstition appear in some animal species.

OwlFancier posted:

Why on earth are people terrified of loving Muslims? There's loads of them in the country, you'd know if they were a public hazard.

"Because they don't believe in the same God as us" because nobody teaches anyone about Islam properly and most of the adherents in the UK are not white or if they are white they dress funny. Or they're from Bosnia in which case they get poo poo for being Eastern European but not Muslim.

There are a lot of valid criticisms of all Abrahamic faiths, but oddly they tend to get disproportionately and disingenuously thrown at just Muslims.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:33

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

OwlFancier posted:

Do you have an online reference for that section? I have a feeling I'd disagree with it but I should probably read it before I do.

Sorry, I had a quick google, but no dice. I'm afraid it's been years and years since I read it so I can't be much more specific either.

OwlFancier posted:

Why on earth are people terrified of loving Muslims? There's loads of them in the country, you'd know if they were a public hazard.

I think the onslaught of association with the words Muslim and terrorist take care of your first question (edit: and Guavanaut's much better response above). I think there is also a difference to the white man on the street between having a Muslim in the country (who, outside of London, they may never come into contact with) and having one in a position of political power over you.

"What if he tries to impose Sharia on me or invites his terrorist friends here?"

Prince John fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jun 7, 2016

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:35

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

hookerbot 5000 posted:

It's the second part of chapter one I think, 'Undeserved Respect'. I can't find it online though, and all reviews are incredibly biased one way or another. Here is one as an example http://consider.org/blog/2007/08/a-review-of-richard-dawkins-the-god-delusion-part-iv/

I enjoyed the God Delusion. From reading the introduction it felt like Richard Dawkins wrote his books on evolution without really being all that fussed about the religious aspect (obviously not believing but not trying to start a fight) but then got so much hate mail and bile that he cracked and wrote the God Delusion.

That review seems fairly sensible to me. Again without the passages I'm not sure I can be categorical but I have a feeling that Dawkins is probably ignoring the social reality of religion whereby adherence to it is frequently used to justify racism and similar bigotry.

If you take a systemic view of society it makes no more sense to criticize people for their religious beliefs than it does to criticize them for their education or class, because they are primarily a product of their environment.

But then being an educated, wealthy twat he's probably an individualist.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:37

Gonzo McFee: Jun 19, 2010

Jose posted:

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/740195219388391424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Jesus Christ.

No problems with capitalism. Nothing to see here.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:39

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:

To be fair, most actual Americans I've met have called the no go and Khan stuff as the bullshit it is. I don't think I've even met anyone who is considering voting for Trump either

he's self destructing fairly impressively at the minute

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:42

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Sadiq Khan or Trump?

Because I don't think Khan should self destruct that's not going to help his case.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:45

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

OwlFancier posted:

Sadiq Khan or Trump?

Because I don't think Khan should self destruct that's not going to help his case.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:50

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

OwlFancier posted:

Sadiq Khan or Trump?

Because I don't think Khan should self destruct that's not going to help his case.

Nice.

Cameron has done a 'direct appeal' to people thinking of sitting out the referendum:

quote:

What was so striking though was the prime minister's efforts to appeal directly to voters, urging them "not to sit it out", not to miss this "vital moment" that could "alter the country's destiny".

In other words, if you're not that bothered, please, please listen to me, and please, please turn out to vote, or else the enthusiastic Brexiteers who'll rush to the polls might just win the day.

One Remain source admitted to me they were starting to panic about the result, joining several senior figures who in recent days have told me they are seriously worried about voters who are notionally on their side staying at home.

What a perfect time, when there's just hours left for his target audience to register to vote. Almost as good as the Russel Brand message to his fans following the Miliband interview, after the registration deadline.

If the stakes weren't so serious, it would be hilarious if all the disenfranchised voters from the rushed reforms meant that Cameron loses the referendum.

Prince John fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jun 7, 2016

# ? Jun 7, 2016 16:59

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Prince John posted:

Nice.

Cameron has done a 'direct appeal' to people thinking of sitting out the referendum:

What a perfect time, when there's just hours left for one of his target audience to register.

If the stakes weren't so serious, it would be hilarious if all the disenfranchised voters from the rushed reforms meant that Cameron loses the referendum.

The one possible positive outcome of this train-wreck of a referendum is that regardless of the result, at this point David Cameron will be seen as the benchmark of political ineptitude.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:02

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

I remember reading Dawkins bemoaning the fact that some big CEO loved The Selfish Gene, because he was misreading it as being a biological justification for Randian objectivism. Dawkins pointed out that according to his book our biological instincts actually tend towards altruistic cooperation, so there probably is something of a collectivist in him.

Although maybe not since Douglas Adams died.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:03

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

OwlFancier posted:

That review seems fairly sensible to me. Again without the passages I'm not sure I can be categorical but I have a feeling that Dawkins is probably ignoring the social reality of religion whereby adherence to it is frequently used to justify racism and similar bigotry.

If you take a systemic view of society it makes no more sense to criticize people for their religious beliefs than it does to criticize them for their education or class, because they are primarily a product of their environment.

But then being an educated, wealthy twat he's probably an individualist.

I'm not sure how fair a critique it is, but I remember that Terry Eagleton's review of The God Delusion in the LRB dissuaded me from reading it, so it was at least effective.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:20

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Prince John posted:

What a perfect time, when there's just hours left for his target audience to register to vote. Almost as good as the Russel Brand message to his fans following the Miliband interview, after the registration deadline.

If the stakes weren't so serious, it would be hilarious if all the disenfranchised voters from the rushed reforms meant that Cameron loses the referendum.

Oh please, show a sense of being British and laugh as our garbage pit of a country self-immolates out of enraged stupidity.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:23

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Coohoolin posted:

I remember reading Dawkins bemoaning the fact that some big CEO loved The Selfish Gene, because he was misreading it as being a biological justification for Randian objectivism. Dawkins pointed out that according to his book our biological instincts actually tend towards altruistic cooperation, so there probably is something of a collectivist in him.

bit surprising considering if there is one thing humans love to do more than anything else its kill each other

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:27

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

EmptyVessel posted:

Gonna need some sources for the bolded bit - ideally from ethology.

You can get pigeons to believe all sorts of wacky poo poo* with a Skinner box.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPmeWiFTIw

*You can get them to make associations that aren't in fact true. If you have a box that releases some seed on a 20 second timer (say) and the pigeon happens to be turning left when that happens, it will try to turn left again to get the seeds to come out. IIRC a box that releases seeds somewhat unpredictably (eg 20 seconds +/- 5) the effect can get even stronger. You can call that "superstition" or not but it seems like it's in the same general ballpark.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:33

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Also religion may be an important influence in society but the idea of an anthropomorphic creator god who built the universe then spent the subsequent aeons obsessively worrying about what humans do with their genitals is nonsense in exactly the same way that belief in Ahura Mazda or Quetzlcotl is nonsense: regardless of how many people believe in it or how fascinating the rituals are that grew up around it, at the end of the day there exists no entity that answers to the description.

Also The Selfish Gene is really good and so is Climbing Mount Improbable and y'all should read them.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:37

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

Jose posted:

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/740195219388391424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/prosecute-sports-direct-owner-mike-ashley

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:42

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Zephro posted:

Also The Selfish Gene is really good and so is Climbing Mount Improbable and y'all should read them.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:43

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Hmm, kinda tempted to replay REVENGEANCE now.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:43

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Zephro posted:

You can get pigeons to believe all sorts of wacky poo poo* with a Skinner box.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPmeWiFTIw

*You can get them to make associations that aren't in fact true. If you have a box that releases some seed on a 20 second timer (say) and the pigeon happens to be turning left when that happens, it will try to turn left again to get the seeds to come out. IIRC a box that releases seeds somewhat unpredictably (eg 20 seconds +/- 5) the effect can get even stronger. You can call that "superstition" or not but it seems like it's in the same general ballpark.

Interesting. That reminds me of the Five Monkeys experiment - I guess there's a kernel of truth, so it's not 100% superstition, but still a passing on of a belief that none of the monkeys present have directly experienced.

quote:

An experimenter puts 5 monkeys in a large cage. High up at the top of the cage, well beyond the reach of the monkeys, is a bunch of bananas. Underneath the bananas is a ladder.

The monkeys immediately spot the bananas and one begins to climb the ladder. As he does, however, the experimenter sprays him with a stream of cold water. Then, he proceeds to spray each of the other monkeys.

The monkey on the ladder scrambles off. And all 5 sit for a time on the floor, wet, cold, and bewildered. Soon, though, the temptation of the bananas is too great, and another monkey begins to climb the ladder. Again, the experimenter sprays the ambitious monkey with cold water and all the other monkeys as well. When a third monkey tries to climb the ladder, the other monkeys, wanting to avoid the cold spray, pull him off the ladder and beat him.

Now one monkey is removed and a new monkey is introduced to the cage. Spotting the bananas, he naively begins to climb the ladder. The other monkeys pull him off and beat him.

Here�s where it gets interesting. The experimenter removes a second one of the original monkeys from the cage and replaces him with a new monkey. Again, the new monkey begins to climb the ladder and, again, the other monkeys pull him off and beat him � including the monkey who had never been sprayed.

By the end of the experiment, none of the original monkeys were left and yet, despite none of them ever experiencing the cold, wet, spray, they had all learned never to try and go for the bananas.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:47

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Tesseraction posted:

Materialism denies free will and ends in the establishment of liberty; idealism, in the name of human dignity, proclaims free will, and on the ruins of every liberty founds authority. 420 smoke memes er'ryday.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:47

keep punching joe: Jan 22, 2006; Die Satan!

Guavanaut posted:

Is there going to be an equivalent Vow from EU leaders this time around?

lol, no, but I'd love to see one

I would love to see a Daily Mail front page with Merkel, Junker, and Barroso all superimposed on a pirates map of the continent with some vague promises about how Wesmister will be more sovereign in the future at some point.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:48

FinalGamer: Aug 30, 2012; So the mystic script says.

Fans posted:

The SNP should vote Remain because it�s a winner for them no matter what.

If the Remain vote wins without Scotland�s help, then at least they maintained integrity and no one will give a poo poo about Scotland.
If the Leave vote wins, they needed to vote Remain to make a case for independence.
However the best scenario is if the Remain Vote wins only because of Scotland and we�ll get the absolutely loving hilarious sight of the Leave side arguing for Scottish independence immediately.

See, I can't really take the Leave camp seriously after the IMMENSE palaver that came from the referendum. It's gonna look mighty hypocritical if the people that demanded Scotland stay are also the people that demand we leave Europe, basically do as I say not as I do.

I know Scottish Independence and leaving the EU are politically different issues (after all there was talk about having Scotland join the EU as a separate country natch), but people generally are one-track-minded in politics so if we Leave, holy poo poo am I gonna raise some fire for their hypocrisy. :v:

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:48

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Zephro posted:

You can get pigeons to believe all sorts of wacky poo poo* with a Skinner box.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPmeWiFTIw

*You can get them to make associations that aren't in fact true. If you have a box that releases some seed on a 20 second timer (say) and the pigeon happens to be turning left when that happens, it will try to turn left again to get the seeds to come out. IIRC a box that releases seeds somewhat unpredictably (eg 20 seconds +/- 5) the effect can get even stronger. You can call that "superstition" or not but it seems like it's in the same general ballpark.

You could also take that as the beginning of a program of research. Aha! Seeds! What was I doing at the time? Let's try that again! Hmm...

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:49

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Prince John posted:

Interesting. That reminds me of the Five Monkeys experiment - I guess there's a kernel of truth, so it's not 100% superstition, but still a passing on of a belief that none of the monkeys present have directly experienced.

is this by the guy who hated monkeys so performed loads of "research" on them that was mostly just abusing them?

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:49

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Prince John posted:

Interesting. That reminds me of the Five Monkeys experiment - I guess there's a kernel of truth, so it's not 100% superstition, but still a passing on of a belief that none of the monkeys present have directly experienced.

That's basically a demonstration that monkeys have culture, but yes, also interesting.

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:50

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Prince John posted:

[monkeys]

For the longest time, the agent just sits in silence. Finally, he manages, "That's a hell of an act. What do you call it?"

And the father says, "The Westminster System!"

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:50

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Dabir posted:

You could also take that as the beginning of a program of research. Aha! Seeds! What was I doing at the time? Let's try that again! Hmm...

I should say that Skinner himself actually did a lot of this work so if anyone wants something more in-depth than a Youtube video his original papers are probably online somewhere. Even if they aren't Google will have a good writeup somewhere. But basically animals, including humans, are primed to look for correlations to the point that they often make false positives (if I spin round and flap my wings in this particular way I'll get some seed / if I dance in this particular way it will rain and our crops will grow / if I wear my lucky scarf West Ham will win).

Zephro fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jun 7, 2016

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:52

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# ? May 9, 2024 23:38

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Tesseraction posted:

Hmm, kinda tempted to replay REVENGEANCE now.

MGR is way better on every level than it has any right to be considering it's about a weaboo cyborg getting an introductory lesson in socioeconomics (forcefully delivered by a succession of other weaboo cyborgs and a talking dog)

# ? Jun 7, 2016 17:53

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