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How will you be voting in the UKEU Referendum? This poll is closed. |
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| Remain - Keep Britane Strong! |
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328 | 15.40% |
| Leave - Take Are Sovreignity Back! |
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115 | 5.40% |
| Remain - But only because Brexit are crazy |
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506 | 23.76% |
| Leave - But only because the EU is terrible |
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157 | 7.37% |
| Spoiled Ballot - This whole thing is an awful idea |
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61 | 2.86% |
| I'm not going to vote |
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19 | 0.89% |
| I'm not allowed to vote |
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411 | 19.30% |
| Pissflaps |
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533 | 25.02% |
| Total: | 2130 votes | ||
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goddamnedtwisto posted:What new powers do you believe are being introduced? Bulk interception, extra powers for equipment interference and ability to compel companies to assist them in such and making all but the smallest ISPs log every connection for 12 months. (Didn't you yourself say that ICRs are new and also kinda poo poo?) Were they allowed to do all this before legally? If yes, do enlighten me. If not, I am counting giving them legal power to do so as giving them a new power.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:03
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Cerebral Bore posted:Isn't this literally the punchline of a Bird and Fortune sketch? Iirc something similar happened to an American tank back in, poo poo I can't even remember which middle eastern war, I want to say the post 9/11 invasion? Something like their fancy turbine driven MBT that was supposed to own the battlefield ended up having cripplingly short service intervals because its designers hadn't expected it to be loving around in a desert.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:04
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The bill gives a massive power to the security services to access vaguely defined "internet connection records" with, as far as I know, no obligation to go before a judge to get a warrant. The bill also creates new obligations (particularly to CSPs) relating to encryption, and both Cameron and May have said that it's their intent to hobble encryption completely. There's also the fact that the practices it allowed, even if it is status quo ante by either law or practice, overreach too far and too deep. This is a bill with sloppy definitions, sloppy writing, and has been universally derided by experts in the field it affects as being not just unnecessary, but incredibly harmful. But hey, at least we've been given the right to sniff poppers again.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:09
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On the alt-right topic - is there a point when all those clueless libertarians turned into outright fascists? Can anyone pinpoint it?
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Jun 7, 2016 20:10
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TinTower posted:This is a bill with sloppy definitions, sloppy writing, and has been universally derided by experts in the field it affects as being not just unnecessary, but incredibly harmful. Hey, can't blame them for wanting to be consistent with the legislation they write.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:16
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TinTower posted:The bill also creates new obligations (particularly to CSPs) relating to encryption, and both Cameron and May have said that it's their intent to hobble encryption completely.  OvineYeast posted:On the alt-right topic - is there a point when all those clueless libertarians turned into outright fascists? Can anyone pinpoint it? 
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Jun 7, 2016 20:18
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hookerbot 5000 posted:
http://www.mwcscot.org.uk/the-law/mental-health-act/emergency-detention/ This seems like the best resource I can find on the topic.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:25
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Kaislioc posted:Bulk interception, extra powers for equipment interference and ability to compel companies to assist them in such and making all but the smallest ISPs log every connection for 12 months. (Didn't you yourself say that ICRs are new and also kinda poo poo?) Bulk interception is an update to and restriction of powers under the Intelligence Services Act, Wireless and Telegraphy Act, and a clarification of powers under RIPA. The intelligence services will have considerably less ability to do bulk interception than under the old rules (in particular it removes the loophole that allowed them to intercept cables that transit rather than terminate in the United Kingdom). Equipment interference is a literal transcription of powers under RIPA and (in case you believed that particular El Reg article and the multitude of bollocks that cited it) does *not* require anyone selling a mobile phone in the UK to give the keys to HMG. This is a misunderstanding of the interaction between RIPA part 1 and RIPA Part 3 powers that would need (and have) literal volumes to properly explain. For the purposes of this post though, it's sufficient to say no, it's not a new power. CSPs already log comms data (i.e. IP address resolution and phone billing data) for 12 months under DRIPA and would definitely be doing so without legal compunction because that's literally how fraud prevention and phone bills work. ICRs have the possibility of being terrible. They're an attempt to help resolve the problems of carrier-grade NAT and proxying being used, particularly on mobile networks but increasingly on fixed-line networks as IPv4 exhaustion really starts to bite. In those circumstances, simple IP>consumer mapping will not be possible. The problem is that there are multiple different ways this is done and so some companies would have to log port ranges as well as IPs, some would have to log every single packet, and some would have to log every website visited, and some would have to log combinations of them. Now the problem is that CSPs (mostly) wanted a law that said "CSPs have to log enough data to identify a user given <x> data" but none of them could agree on what <x> data would be. Because there was no way to put that power into legalese that satisfied the laywers on both sides, the ICR powers are a compromise that basically kick it into the long grass and leave HMG to negotiate with individual CSPs. However most CSPs are concerned that the wording is sufficiently vague that they won't be able to properly negotiate and could face imposition of overly-onerous logging requirements. However they do *not* represent an additional risk to individual privacy because access to them will be governed by the new, much more restrictive, CD rules. The other big problem with it (and again this is a problem of "this is a loving stupid idea that won't work" rather than "this will let parking wardens access my webcam" proportions) is the extraterritorial extension to RIPA Part 1 powers. I mean sure we can tell, say, vk.ru that they have to hand over all of Vladimir Putin's late-night chats with girls who turned him down at the KGB Academy, but they can tell us to gently caress off and that's the end of that.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:45
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Don't forget, its the Dave and Nige Summer Road show on itv at 9!
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Jun 7, 2016 20:52
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OvineYeast posted:On the alt-right topic - is there a point when all those clueless libertarians turned into outright fascists? Can anyone pinpoint it? #gamergate
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Jun 7, 2016 20:55
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Anyone else watching tonights shitshow on ITV? I'm gonna see how long I can manage without punching something.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:01
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Trickjaw posted:Don't forget, its the Dave and Nige Summer Road show on itv at 9! 
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Jun 7, 2016 21:02
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Don't see a problem there. I trust Nige more than Dave. To the extent that Trust is a factor of predictability.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:03
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You know Nigel Farage reminds me of a more froggy Edward from the League of Gentlemen, "This is a local country for local people, we'll have no immigrants here!", which would make Boris Tubbs, I can just picture him suckling a piglet for David Cameron in the good old days.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:03
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lol
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Jun 7, 2016 21:03
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Does anyone have bingo cards for this?
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Jun 7, 2016 21:04
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Should reiterate again that the warrant requirements on ICRs are weak to non-existent. The other warrants don't have to get judicial approval before their use, IIRC.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:05
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Guavanaut posted:So they've managed to talk themselves into the nerd version of some of the most ridiculous of religious thought that they consider themselves above, but instead of an omnipotent god who can torture you for eternity it's a time traveling omnipotent AI, and lack the accompanying theodicy to deal with it. No wonder they spawned a movement that traces all of the world's ills to the Enlightenment.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:10
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Zephro posted:To be fair I don't think any of the more mainstream monotheistic religions have a working answer to the problem of evil either its using trident
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Jun 7, 2016 21:10
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Guavanaut posted:It's one of those things that originally came from Skinner's study of pigeons, that occasionally makes waves of agreement or dismissal in some philosophy of science types, 'superstition in the pigeon' iirc. Zephro posted:You can get pigeons to believe all sorts of wacky poo poo* with a Skinner box. Prince John posted:Interesting. That reminds me of the Five Monkeys experiment - I guess there's a kernel of truth, so it's not 100% superstition, but still a passing on of a belief that none of the monkeys present have directly experienced. Thanks for all this, I'll look into it further but not wildly convinced by these examples. The reason I specified ethological sources is that ethology is generally focused on animal behaviour under natural conditions which neither of these experiments are at all. I have no problem agreeing that animals (or people) put into an unnatural environment and then put under stress will start to act crazy but don't see why this should be called 'superstition'. Jane Goodall and some of her colleagues have recorded what could be considered proto-religious behaviour among wild chimpanzees - best I could find quickly here Waterfall displays and rain dances - which are a far better example of percursors to human religiosity imo. Should also say that my old man is a psychobiologist and developmental psychologist who is really not keen on Skinner at all so I'm pre-biased  And.. as if by coincidence, he just phoned - didn't really want to talk about this (called to tell me that Jerome Bruner has died) but he did say that he'd consider what is being called 'superstition' here as really a function of 'imagination' which he considers much more important in animals, human and otherwise. EmptyVessel fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 21:12
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164 Labour MPs voted for the Investigatory Powers Bill. Corbyn is conspicuous by his absence in the Hansard record. More Lib Dems voted against the bill than Labour MPs. Daniel Kawczynscki is the sole Tory rebel.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:15
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Lol Farage just pulled the Calm down dear tactic
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Jun 7, 2016 21:15
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He's such a poo poo.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:17
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Jose posted:its using trident
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Jun 7, 2016 21:17
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Pesmerga posted:He's such a poo poo.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:19
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Farage just got shot down by a woman in the audiance. Maybe this won't be so bad after all 
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Jun 7, 2016 21:20
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Don't forget humans have spent the last 10,000 years building a huge and profoundly unnatural environment for themselves to live in, and the importance of the most unnatural bits has grown steadily over that time. Our brains suck bad at getting themselves around concepts like "probability" and "randomness" and "causality" and "risk" etc etc. So much so that we had to invent formal systems like maths and logic to overcome our cognitive biases.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:20
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Zephro posted:To be fair I don't think any of the more mainstream monotheistic religions have a working answer to the problem of evil either I don't think even the most transparent megachurch would say that the specific and sole cause of evil or potential future torment is that you didn't give enough money to their Jesus Intelligence Research Institute, although evangelicals do continue to surprise me.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:21
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Zephro posted:Hm, nuke god you say. You are Lord Asriel and I claim my five pounds global nuclear annihilation seems easier but i'm down for any use of trident. it costs so loving much we should make use of it
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Jun 7, 2016 21:21
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Zephro posted:Don't forget humans have spent the last 10,000 years building a huge and profoundly unnatural environment for themselves to live in, and the importance of the most unnatural bits has grown steadily over that time. Our brains suck bad at getting themselves around concepts like "probability" and "randomness" and "causality" and "risk" etc etc. So much so that we had to invent formal systems like maths and logic to overcome our cognitive biases. 
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Jun 7, 2016 21:22
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Haha haha *angrily brandished European passport*
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Jun 7, 2016 21:24
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maths is stupid and i bet in the future they will think we were so silly for believing in it
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Jun 7, 2016 21:25
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TinTower posted:Should reiterate again that the warrant requirements on ICRs are weak to non-existent. The other warrants don't have to get judicial approval before their use, IIRC. There is no requirement for a warrant for an ICR because an ICR is not itself a thing that can be requested by an agency, like intercept - it is comms data held en masse by CSPs. It sounds like splitting hairs but its an incredibly important distinction and it's entirely possible that misunderstanding this is at the heart of a lot of the more wildly inaccurate reporting of the problems. Disclosure of data comes under CD regulations and has the same protections against disproportionate or overly-broad requests and has post-facto judicial oversight. Not ideal but disclosures run into the tens of thousands a week because even a simple road accident investigation could require a dozen disclosure notices, including several under (D)RIPA (to confirm whether or not a driver was making a call at the time of the crash). Judicial oversight of that would be impossible without employing a couple of thousand more judges to do nothing more than rubber-stamp them. (Disclosure law generally is actually pretty poor in the UK, but by far the largest abusers of it are banks and debt collection companies and lord knows we're never allowed to criticise them)
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Jun 7, 2016 21:34
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This wanker wearing his dad's suit who hates UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS  has an incredibly punchable face.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:48
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Zephro posted:Don't forget humans have spent the last 10,000 years building a huge and profoundly unnatural environment for themselves to live in, and the importance of the most unnatural bits has grown steadily over that time. Our brains suck bad at getting themselves around concepts like "probability" and "randomness" and "causality" and "risk" etc etc. So much so that we had to invent formal systems like maths and logic to overcome our cognitive biases.  Modern humans are all crazy. That's why I'm a prehistorian.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:50
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Pesmerga posted:This wanker wearing his dad's suit who hates UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS "The United Kingdom was built on the pillars of democracy and our legal system is the greatest in the world." 
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Jun 7, 2016 21:50
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There's a disproportionate number of smug looking fat men in suits on the Brexit side.Kaislioc posted:"The United Kingdom was built on the pillars of democracy and our legal system is the greatest in the world." Some Commissioners may not even have visited are cuntry!
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Jun 7, 2016 21:51
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I only saw the last 10 minutes and was wondering why David was getting all the air time until I remembered that they aren't actually debating each other. God what a boring waste of time.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:57
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Kaislioc posted:"The United Kingdom was built on the pillars of democracy and our legal system is the greatest in the world." Bless the little soul. Watching it was really disconcerting, obviously itv had stacked the deck wrt questions so they get all the headlines, but it all seemed so.. staged. I ended up hoping for some Question Time post pub ducks, and both the funds sweating their shiny suits off. Yes there were a lot of men that looked like fat thumbs, chuckling and shaking their heads at answers.
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Jun 7, 2016 22:01
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| # ? May 12, 2024 19:27 |
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https://twitter.com/StrongerIn/status/740276762148544514
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Jun 7, 2016 22:06
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