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Dongattack posted:That doesn't work either for me. The next two fixes are: -Make sure vsync is off -Run it in borderless windowed mode
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Jun 17, 2016 18:07
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Rakthar posted:The next two fixes are: I tried that also :P
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Jun 17, 2016 18:10
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gently caress the late-game chaos fluffer tribe whack a mole. Is there a mod that kills them once chaos has been ruined?
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Jun 17, 2016 18:14
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Dongattack posted:I tried that also :P Then you are most. def waiting, sorry for your loss. So I'm playing through an Empire VH campaign and I think this is the best example of the pacing being completely screwy. If you look at the cost + turn times to build + limited slots, you really can't either build or maintain a lot of expensive stuff until about turn 60-80. Chaos shows up around this time and you generally spend the next 30 turns fighting them. It just takes too long to be able to play with the cool units. Why do I have to wait 10 turns for growth and then build time to upgrade my capital, then another 5 turns and 10k to build the cool building, then 3 turns to recruit the unit, then another 4-5 to get it to the frontline army... 20+ turns to actually field new stuff from the point that you get it. This is assuming you can have more than one 'premier' stack, I generally feel that I can only afford a main stack and a budget stack midgame due to the campaign tuning. Thoughts from the latest runthrough, this one on VH: With the current pacing it feels like Chaos waves should be on turn 100 and 150 not 80 and 100. Is there a way to mod this? I get the desire to make the player make some decisions with upgrades and costs. I don't get the way it plays out in the campaign. Why does everything take so long and so much money? It's just a consistent theme that I don't get. I have never been a fan of the upkeep mods or building cost mods, I sure feel like the build costs could be cut by 25% and the game wouldn't suffer for it. Yes I know agents improve this, they are gated behind a lot of turns, I also dislike the micro and leveling them. I would really rather not have to spend 5 minutes every turn clicking to get the build costs to where I can build stuff. Why does CA really love crappy events and bonuses so much more than neutral or good ones? Is this some dour English thing? The gods are always angry, there's some lovely migration. Is there a single like, straight buff event?
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Jun 17, 2016 18:30
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If I'm flanking with a unit and I'm reasonably sure that my unit is not gonna itself be flanked should I spread my dudes really thin so that they are all engaged before/while they're charging?' Also is there anything special I need to do to make a unit disengage? I had trouble even making Franz on a griffon be able to disengage and re-charge into something, he kept just getting held there
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Jun 17, 2016 18:38
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Chomp8645 posted:Yeah, I'm not quite sure about the bonus damage. Based on the way it's displayed here my personal interpretation is that the bonus is regular damage, not AP. But it doesn't really say specifically one way or the other so who can be sure. Yeah according to the reddit post bonus damage is added to the base damage. Though because Armor is a % decrease that means the bonus damage is still helping you against that target. The math on the Goblin Archers was bugging me so I redid it, the "Missle Damage" on a unit card is a measure of a unit's damage total over a period of ten seconds, or (Base Damage + Armor Piercing) * (10 / Reload Time). After factoring in Armor for Dwarf units we get 7-4 damage against Warriors (5 average), 10-5 damage against Warriors with Great Weapons (7 average), and 10-3 damage against Hammerers (6 average). Factoring in HP and assuming perfect accuracy it would take one goblin an average of 126 seconds to kill a Warrior with a shield, 90 seconds to kill one without a shield, and 123 seconds to kill a Hammerer.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:38
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Chomp8645 posted:I know this is from last page but it contributes to the current armor discussion so I'm going to quote it. Though note that this only applies to certain elite Great Weapon units, and less so to the variants of regular infantry. The thing is that different weapon types have different attack speeds, which are for some reason not listed in the unit attributes. Great Weapons and Halberds in particular tend to have markedly lower attack speeds than regular hand weapons. For example, all of the Dwarf Great Weapon varieties of the regular infantry (excepting hammerers) will perform worse against light infantry than the regular ones, because they have the same total damage per hit (albeit at a higher AP-ratio) at a slower rate of attack. Chosen, Chaos Warrior, and Empire Halberdiers have similar problems. Greatswords and Black Orcs are somewhat exceptional in that they're a higher-tier unit with better base stats than regular infantry, rather than a unit variant with just a different weapon profile. Edit: Oh, also note that the "anti-infantry" perk from the Black Orcs isn't any kind of mechanical bonus. Those notes in the top of a unit's profile are usually purely descriptive, and just tell you how they're best used. All the actual mechanical effects are down below. Perestroika fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 18:44
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Perestroika posted:Though note that this only applies to certain elite Great Weapon units, and less so to the variants of regular infantry. The thing is that different weapon types have different attack speeds, which are for some reason not listed in the unit attributes. Great Weapons and Halberds in particular tend to have markedly lower attack speeds than regular hand weapons. For example, all of the Dwarf Great Weapon varieties of the regular infantry (excepting hammerers) will perform worse against light infantry than the regular ones, because they have the same total damage per hit (albeit at a higher AP-ratio) at a slower rate of attack. Chosen, Chaos Warrior, and Empire Halberdiers have similar problems. Greatswords and Black Orcs are somewhat exceptional in that they're a higher-tier unit with better base stats than regular infantry, rather than a unit variant with just a different weapon profile. Halberds do have an attack penalty, do dwarf great weapon units also get this attack speed penalty? Like quarrelers with great weapons attack at ~5 seconds instead of the default 3.8? Same with Warriors and Longbeards? What the hell are the attack times for Hammerers and Slayers then  Is there a way to get a list of which units use which attack speeds? Barring that, because it might be lengthy, can we get a list of which great weapon units take 5+ seconds? Maybe that's shorter.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:48
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Rakthar posted:Then you are most. def waiting, sorry for your loss. Yeah, thanks for the help tho!
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Jun 17, 2016 18:50
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Rakthar posted:Halberds do have an attack penalty, do dwarf great weapon units also get this attack speed penalty? Like quarrelers with great weapons attack at ~5 seconds instead of the default 3.8? Same with Warriors and Longbeards? Halberds are like 5.5 lol Slayers are normal speed IIRC, and have +30 to large which is why they are great against Varghulfs, Varheists, Trolls and Giants. Mazz fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 18:52
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Does attack speed tweaking scale the animation accordingly? Kinda odd they didnt up the attack speed for dual wielders. Mazz posted:No, apparently Kholek has a passive damage reduction in that his animation is longer then his attack speed. Gotcha, so its just in between animation repeat cycles? So swing roll and animation, 3.8 seconds, can swing/animation again? Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 18:53
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Dandywalken posted:Does attack speed tweaking scale the animation accordingly? No, apparently Kholek has a passive damage reduction in that his animation is longer then his attack speed.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:55
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Mazz posted:Halberds are like 5.5 lol Apparently some units can also hit multiple units per swing? Is this just monstrous units or do long ranged units like Halberds / Spears have this effect as well? Do some artillery units have different values for direct / splash damage? Is there a way to tell whether 'explosive' damage is regular dmg, ap dmg, or neither?
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Jun 17, 2016 18:55
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Rakthar posted:Apparently some units can also hit multiple units per swing? Is this just monstrous units or do long ranged units like Halberds / Spears have this effect as well? Splash damage is certainly a thing, there are items/abilities that can add it to units without. I don't think any baseline infantry have it but I never looked closely. The weapon damage tooltip when you mouse over the value in the unit card tells you the exact break down off damage types, including explosive for units that have it. The only thing I don't think it models right is extra ranged damage units get from veterancy or hero boosts. Like the damage is there but the stat breakdown doesn't update to show it.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:59
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Mazz posted:Splash damage is certainly a thing, there are items/abilities that can add it to units without. I don't think any baseline infantry have it but I never looked closely. The weapon damage tooltip when you mouse over the tells you the exact break down off damage types, including explosive for units that have it. The only thing I don't think it models right is extra ranged damage units get from veterancy or hero boosts. Like the damage is there but the stat breakdown doesn't update to show it. I've seen the explosive damage in the tooltip, I wasn't sure if that's considered AP damage or regular damage in terms of how armor affects it. I'll see if I can infer it on the unit performance. I have not seen a way to see the splash damage on units in unit cards, that's why I was curious about that. Incidentally Reddit guys couldn't seem to figure out whether splash damage is applied to all the units it hits, or whether it's divided between the units it hits. So Kholek for instance can hit up to 7 units per swing. It was unclear whether that means his 400 damage gets done to all 7 models it hits, or whether it's 400 damage spread between the 7 models. The latter might explain why splash and monstrous units seem so underwhelming if that's the case. Here's the relevant quote: quote:It seems to fall down to spash_attack_max_attacks and spash_power_multiplier which are set at 7 and 1 for Kholek, respectively. I used to think that this meant that Kholek could hit 7 guys for 400 ap each but it might actually be distributing the 400 damage between 7 guys.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:04
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It's definitely spreading it out since 400 to any infantry model is enough to kill it IIRC, units fighting those lords would loving evaporate. Against low count units like trolls that were bunched up, that would be 2000+ damage a melee swing.
Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 19:07
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Mazz posted:It's definitely spreading it out since 400 to any infantry is enough to kill it IIRC, units fighting those lords would loving evaporate. If someone makes an AOE as gently caress mod I'd try it, I want to play a campaign where all the monstrous units are WWE wrestlers and the regular infantry are just getting super slammed from the ropes.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:09
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Rakthar posted:Then you are most. def waiting, sorry for your loss. The main chaos attack is at turn 100. What you call bad pacing is actually perfect pacing, with the idea being that new units become gradually available over the course of the game so that every twenty or thirty turns the player needs to make a decision about how/whether to integrate that new unit into his armies. If you got all your units at turn 20 you'd just be having the same finalised army composition for 90% of your campaign instead of the final 30%, and the result is that players will burn out fast. The cool units are cool *because* they are hard to get. Remember how in base Shogun 2 musketeers and mounted ranged were endgame units? Here mounted range is first tier and handgunners are barely mid tier! So suddenly these cool units you had to beg and scrape to get aren't cool any more. The fact that you're thinking 'oh man, it'll rock when I finally get my steam tanks' is the design working. Go get a mod if you don't like it. quote:Why does CA really love crappy events and bonuses so much more than neutral or good ones? Is this some dour English thing? The gods are always angry, there's some lovely migration. Is there a single like, straight buff event? Whuh? Those are positive events. Gods are angry is a growth buff. Great migration is a pretty significant cut to recruitment costs. (Yeah okay you pay about 20 public order in each city for these, but that's hardly a significant cost because you usually run a slight surplus in public order per turn, and there's no benefit to maxing it out.) The only truly negative events I can think of is the piracy one and the negative growth one, and they are pretty minor. There's also some entirely positive ones like the one that gives +2 recruitment experience for a few turns, or the one that lets you pick between a leadership buff and cheap recruitment, or the Say No to Strangers one that removes some corruption from every province. Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 19:11
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poo poo, you think these are negative? Lemme tell ya 'bout a certain comet. And it sure as gently caress isnt twin-tailed! 
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Jun 17, 2016 19:14
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Fangz posted:What you call bad pacing is actually perfect pacing, with the idea being that new units become gradually available over the course of the game so that every twenty or thirty turns the player needs to make a decision about how/whether to integrate that new unit into his armies. If you got all your units at turn 20 you'd just be having the same finalised army composition for 90% of your campaign instead of the final 30%, and the result is that players will burn out fast. It's loving perfect the way it is, this CA masterpiece that took years to make  quote:The cool units are cool *because* they are hard to get. Remember how in base Shogun 2 musketeers and mounted ranged were endgame units? Here mounted range is first tier and handgunners are barely mid tier! So suddenly these cool units you had to beg and scrape to get aren't cool any more. The fact that you're thinking 'oh man, it'll rock when I finally get my steam tanks' is the design working. Go get a mod if you don't like it. My steam tanks are going to be coming online at turn 120, and I've defeated the chaos invasion already. What do I use them against? What do you feel was perfect about this pacing? The harder the difficulty the later you'll get your cool poo poo. On Normal you can get cool poo poo by turn 40-60. On hard by turn 60-80. On vh+ it's turn 80-100. On vh+ it overlaps with the chaos invasion. quote:Whuh? Those are positive events. Gods are angry is a growth buff. Great migration is a pretty significant cut to recruitment costs. Hey bro if you think that events that take 1500 and provide a bonus you don't need are a positive event, I don't think we're going to agree on the rest. There's this cool event where you can pay 1500 to improve the omens or not improve the omens. It's your choice, totally neutral event. Oh wait you didn't improve the omens, haha image of angry god for 5 turns, lmao.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:20
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Rakthar posted:My steam tanks are going to be coming online at turn 120, and I've defeated the chaos invasion already. What do I use them against? What do you feel was perfect about this pacing? Man on VH+ my buds are getting their steam tanks online far quicker than you because they're prioritising that poo poo and sacking like crazy in wars their allies are fighting.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:38
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dogstile posted:Man on VH+ my buds are getting their steam tanks online far quicker than you because they're prioritising that poo poo and sacking like crazy in wars their allies are fighting. You can build the level 1 gun building wherever, it doesn't need to be in a capital. The difference between having Nuln and not having Nuln is pretty massive. I was having chain war decs that kept me from being able to declare on the Nuln guys and take that province. Since I only had altdorf, I had to choose, griffins or steam tanks. I went griffin. I finally got Nuln on turn 90, as a size 3. It took about 10 turns of growth for it to hit size 4 and build the upgrade. Then another 10 for size 5. The cannon building has to be upgraded to level 3. So first you build it, which is 3 turns. Upgrade to level 2, 4 turns. Upgrade to level 3, 5 turns. Remember, can't upgrade to level 2 or 3 until the capital is the right size, and every time a city switches hands even if you occupy you will lose a settlement level. If the city is under attack a lot you either park one of your two armies that you can afford there to defend it, or you spend a slot on a garrison, which also costs money and time. There's no doubt that you can sit there and posture about how badass you are and how early you can get a t2 / t3 unit if you rush for it. For me though, I find it striking that if you want to be able to field multiple late game units, and agents, and research techs, you really need secure borders, provinces, slots, and you need to not be pillaged or sacked or you will lose 10-15 turns each time it happens. It's not a question of can I win - sure I can win - it's just that I can either win the game on the timetable they provide, or I can get to the point that I can use the cool lategame units. My preference would be that either the campaign slows down to the point I can build and field the poo poo, or that building and fielding the poo poo is quicker. I really don't care which is the solution.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:48
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I'm fairly sure Nuln's artillery boosts are factionwide, not province-limited, so there's no specific reason to build your artillery chains in Nuln itself. You can build all of that in Altdorf and then get Nuln whenever. It would be nice to get the end-game stuff slightly earlier though.
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Jun 17, 2016 19:56
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John Charity Spring posted:I'm fairly sure Nuln's artillery boosts are factionwide, not province-limited, so there's no specific reason to build your artillery chains in Nuln itself. You can build all of that in Altdorf and then get Nuln whenever. Altdorf has a port, so that's a slot. It also gets a unique building which is a requirement for Gent, that's also a slot. If you build the armory in the capital, and you have to if you want to upgrade it past level 1, that's a slot. If Altdorf is level 5, you have occupied 3 / 5 slots. If you want to build a menagerie for gryphons, that's a fourth slot. You can't build that anywhere that isn't the capital. And if you want a shrine to Sigmar level 3 because that was your only way to recruit warrior priests, then you have a problem. So I had an artillery school + armory problem. If it was just the artillery building it would be fine, but artillery + armory seems to require a provincial capital dedicated to steam tanks if that's what you want. You also have to know that you need both of these buildings and plan ahead - no problem once you've played a faction, awkard if you haven't. Especially if you are also building sigmar shrines / wizard colleges / armories in various places.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:00
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For VC at least I can get all of their stuff by turn 60 at the latest on very hard (turn 40-50 is more likely). Not sure on empire, but if they have any +growth agents or buildings you probably want to focus those before a tear-down in order to hit max city levels. Not sure where they fall on the growth spectrum between VC and dwarves, with dwarves being super slow if you don't focus it and VC being fast even if you don't. But, if you focus dwarves you can get your growth to be around VC un-focused level so turn 60 for a maxed town is still very possible. Just don't be afraid to build and even upgrade growth buildings and then tear them down later. Same for agent recruitment--build the building and then tear-down since money should never be an issue unless you aren't sacking enough.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:00
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Decus posted:For VC at least I can get all of their stuff by turn 60 at the latest on very hard (turn 40-50 is more likely). Not sure on empire, but if they have any +growth agents or buildings you probably want to focus those before a tear-down in order to hit max city levels. Not sure where they fall on the growth spectrum between VC and dwarves, with dwarves being super slow if you don't focus it and VC being fast even if you don't. But, if you focus dwarves you can get your growth to be around VC un-focused level so turn 60 for a maxed town is still very possible. I didn't really have an issue with slot contention as VC. They have enough money, recruitment flexibility, and two 3 city provinces that get given to them early enough to be able to groom those however they want. I run into it as at Empire and Dwarfs, since both of those seem to require quite a bit of planning.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:02
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Rakthar posted:It's loving perfect the way it is, this CA masterpiece that took years to make Was it you that said you upgrade all your settlements to level 3, and only build one growth building per province even in Altdorf? Because I think I can see why your development is so slow. quote:Hey bro if you think that events that take 1500 and provide a bonus you don't need are a positive event, I don't think we're going to agree on the rest. There's this cool event where you can pay 1500 to improve the omens or not improve the omens. It's your choice, totally neutral event. Oh wait you didn't improve the omens, haha image of angry god for 5 turns, lmao. Which event is that? Under the dark moon's glare is indeed pay for leadership buff/or risk chance of bad thing (usually temporary public order loss, no big deal). Angry gods is pay to placate gods and get a buff, or say No and get a public order debuff/growth buff.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:10
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Rakthar posted:Altdorf has a port, so that's a slot. It also gets a unique building which is a requirement for Gent, that's also a slot. If you build the armory in the capital, and you have to if you want to upgrade it past level 1, that's a slot. If Altdorf is level 5, you have occupied 3 / 5 slots. If you want to build a menagerie for gryphons, that's a fourth slot. You can't build that anywhere that isn't the capital. And if you want a shrine to Sigmar level 3 because that was your only way to recruit warrior priests, then you have a problem. So yeah, you're prioritising different things and wondering why its taking so long to get all the later units. I didn't get cat mounts until after I had the tanks, I just chose to prioritise the tanks. Actually having to make a decision isn't bad game design Rakthar posted:I was the guy who posted that I make tons of growth buildings everywhere and they tie up slots and you explained to me that I should build less growth buildings and they wouldn't tie up my slots. Apparently I'm also the guy that needs to build more growth buildings, and then I'll have the growth I want. Hmm. Again, this is a choice. Short term boost (you can tear them down after!) or build a couple and focus your cash somewhere else. This is good gameplay in a strategy game! You should have to make interesting choices! dogstile fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 20:15
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Fangz posted:Was it you that said you upgrade all your settlements to level 3, and only build one growth building per province even in Altdorf? Because I think I can see why your development is so slow. I was the guy who posted that I make tons of growth buildings everywhere and they tie up slots and you explained to me that I should build less growth buildings and they wouldn't tie up my slots. Apparently I'm also the guy that needs to build more growth buildings, and then I'll have the growth I want. Hmm. Yeah so dark moon's glare is a problem if you have crappy public order, which will generally be an issue with VH penalty + Vampire corruption + Chaos Corruption if you're Empire. That means you kinda have to pay it, so that's a 1500 gold tax and happens pretty regularly. Same for Angry Gods. If it's a buff that doesn't help your situation in any way and you can't decline it without some lovely penalty, to me that's not a great event.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:18
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dogstile posted:So yeah, you're prioritising different things and wondering why its taking so long to get all the later units. I didn't get cat mounts until after I had the tanks, I just chose to prioritise the tanks. Actually having to make a decision isn't bad game design Is it ok to want to be able to field both cat knights and Steam tanks in my Empire army, and at that point have semblance of an actual opponent to fling them at? Or is life about making hard choices and the Warhammer videogame is gently teaching me that lesson?
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Jun 17, 2016 20:20
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Rakthar posted:Is it ok to want to be able to field both cat knights and Steam tanks in my Empire army, and at that point have semblance of an actual opponent to fling them at? Use custom battle then. You rarely have an actual opponent in the base campaign anyway if you want a legitimate gripe.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:21
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dogstile posted:Use custom battle then. You rarely have an actual opponent in the base campaign anyway if you want a legitimate gripe. That pisses me off too! So yeah my suggestion was that making it a bit easier to build neat faction special units in the campaign that is already a pushover as you explain, and I agree with, might be fun.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:24
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I don't get it. You can produce all units in Reikland. You just need a second province for warrior priests.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:27
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If you are really having trouble getting settlements to level 5, you could also capture or confederate an AI settlement that has this built up already. I doubt whatever difficulty debuff is slowing you down applies to the AI.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:29
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In fact, its better to use middenland, they get a better building for them! Rakthar posted:That pisses me off too! That's fine, but that's not the purpose of the campaign. The purpose of the campaign is to attempt to have you make tough choices and that does happen every now and then. Removing that completely runs against that. If you disagree fine, I probably can't convince you anyway.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:30
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dogstile posted:In fact, its better to use middenland, they get a better building for them! The tough choice of whether you want cats or tanks in your army, this is the sort of decision that you will have to make when you command in the end times. So my quest to get big epic battles on VH went no better than the attempts on Hard. I still found the campaign difficulty frontloaded in the first 60-80 turns, and by the time I got settled in and was able to set up my provinces as I choose and build the army comps I wanted, the chaos invasion was basically over. Maybe that's a better way to sum it up. quote:If you are really having trouble getting settlements to level 5, you could also capture or confederate an AI settlement that has this built up already Incidentally be real careful when you confederate, the AI seems to love going after your the newly garrisonless holdings. This applies to both player and NPC factions. It seems to be a lot of why the map gets devastated - the AI confederates and some other faction just burns them to the ground.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:41
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I like the feeling of missing out on certain building chains/techs/units/LL builds on any given playthroughs because it means that if I really like a faction I can just start another campaign for an almost entirely different experience. I like the progression of starting with chaff and slowly upgrading your armies. That feeling of progress is the entire reason I play campaigns like TW:W's.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:43
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genericnick posted:I don't get it. You can produce all units in Reikland. You just need a second province for warrior priests. I thought that, but with the relatively slower growth of a two settlement province and no warrior priests to speed it up getting to witch hunters takes a million years. And dealing with the corruption and public order penalties of northern tribes you'll never catch wandering around your provinces until you have witch hunters to slow them down is loving terrible.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:46
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Have you tried Ambush stance.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:52
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NeurosisHead posted:I thought that, but with the relatively slower growth of a two settlement province and no warrior priests to speed it up getting to witch hunters takes a million years. And dealing with the corruption and public order penalties of northern tribes you'll never catch wandering around your provinces until you have witch hunters to slow them down is loving terrible. Every settlement gets the t2 +growth building until I get really going, then I trash it for something else. Warrior priests help a ton too, but if you chose not to go into them you are going to have better army variety and so can probably do better on the tactical maps with less, or be better able to project force and conquer poo poo faster!
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Jun 17, 2016 21:10
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