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Charlie Mopps posted:Here in the Netherlands the same dumb fucks who managed to get a referendum about the Ukraine treaty are already trying to get a referendum about leaving the EU started. Fortunately our laws prevent one about existing laws and treaties, so for now we are safe. Actually right now the only people supporting a full on exit in the Netherlands are Geert Wilders' freedom party. The socialists while euroskeptical are only calling for reforms, as are basically all other (major) parties. the 50+ party (which holds a grand total of maybe one seat)'s official stance is to minimise european influence. the Coalition (i.e. the ones currently in power) have stated that the very idea of an exit is ridiculous. our media is really playing up the "COULD THIS BE THE END OF EUROPE?!" angle though EDIT: Though I will say as a member of the socialist party in this country, they've been oddly quiet about this whole affair. JMolen fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Jun 25, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2016 14:12
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Tesseraction posted:There is already an International English standard. Making one just for the EU would be a waste of time. So?
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Jun 25, 2016 14:23
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JMolen posted:Actually right now the only people supporting a full on exit in the Netherlands are Geert Wilders' freedom party. The socialists while euroskeptical are only calling for reforms, as are basically all other (major) parties. the 50+ party (which holds a grand total of maybe one seat)'s official stance is to minimise european influence. the Coalition (i.e. the ones currently in power) have stated that the very idea of an exit is ridiculous. our media is really playing up the "COULD THIS BE THE END OF EUROPE?!" angle though The thing with referendums is people do not have to vote along with the party line. But if it came to a vote i am sure people would be swayed by economic arguments (sovereignty is a nice concept but for the Dutch, money over everything). Any trade barriers with Germany would end our prosperity thoroughly. It is a moot point though, the Netherlands will never hold a binding referendum on anything. There isn't even a provision for it in the law and most parties do not support the idea of referendums.
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Jun 25, 2016 14:32
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YF-23 posted:Aside from Irish English, we're probably not too many years away from Scottish En- Ah endorse that awfy guid plan. Mon eh EU.
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Jun 25, 2016 14:41
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NihilismNow posted:The thing with referendums is people do not have to vote along with the party line. But if it came to a vote i am sure people would be swayed by economic arguments (sovereignty is a nice concept but for the Dutch, money over everything). Any trade barriers with Germany would end our prosperity thoroughly. I agree with you on both points yeah. The Netherlands love to pride ourselves for our mercantilism and pragmatism. Economic arguments hold a lot of sway here. The moment we believe the EU becomes unprofitable for us will be the moment we leave it. And as you've said we have a history of just ignoring referendum results and our latest adventure with the Ukraine (with a turnout of maybe a third of the population) really tanked our faith in referenda. Leading to laws being proposed to require a strong majority and high turnout rate for a referendum to be considered valid. I'm not sure what actually came of that though JMolen fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jun 25, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2016 14:42
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I know your country needs something to distract you from the existential horror of being Belgian but making a competing standard against an already-existing standard is the kind of dumb poo poo the European Union was made to stop idiots from doing.
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Jun 25, 2016 14:51
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YF-23 posted:What do the Netherlands have to be mad about against the EU anyway. They're the ones who are paying the most, per capita. doverhog posted:Why do so many people outside the UK give a poo poo about what Scotland does? I guess they all watched Braveheart at an impressionable age. +scotch Describes me anyway. In my case, it's just for the yummy schadenfreude of seeing the United Kingdom cease to exist. Cat Mattress posted:For maximum schadenfreude, I'm hoping for a Brexit followed by a Scoxit. Northern Ireland leaving would be even better, but it's quite a longshot. Scottish independence appears plausible.
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Jun 25, 2016 15:09
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Seriously, sticking with English because it's the international language of business, science and the internet and then bastardizing it to no longer be that language makes no sense at all. If you don't want to be able to communicate with Americans and educated people in many other parts of the world, just start learning Chinese or something. It's not like people learning English in India and Japan are suddenly going to decide the new EU version is the one they want to learn.
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Jun 25, 2016 15:10
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FWIW, a recent poll in the Czech Republic and leave won 53/47, although it was hardly very representative online poll so who the gently caress knows. Still, the more detailed breakdowns were similar to what we've see elsewhere - it's mainly the backwood hicks and olds trying to ruin everything. Somewhat surprisingly, the most/least favorite things between the two groups are very similar: free movement of people and goods is a plus, and everyone is mad about CAP, for example, so it's mostly down to priorities. Still, the country benefits from billions of Euros of additional income so they don't even have that excuse. http://zpravy.idnes.cz/podrobne-vysledky-ankety-o-czexitu-d6u-/domaci.aspx?c=A160621_152249_domaci_jw
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Jun 25, 2016 15:16
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mobby_6kl posted:FWIW, a recent poll in the Czech Republic and leave won 53/47, although it was hardly very representative online poll so who the gently caress knows. Still, the more detailed breakdowns were similar to what we've see elsewhere - it's mainly the backwood hicks and olds trying to ruin everything. Somewhat surprisingly, the most/least favorite things between the two groups are very similar: free movement of people and goods is a plus, and everyone is mad about CAP, for example, so it's mostly down to priorities. Still, the country benefits from billions of Euros of additional income so they don't even have that excuse. Judging by that link it was a poll of readers though, which is a little different from what most people think of when they hear an "online poll"
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Jun 25, 2016 15:18
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Cat Mattress posted:Northern Ireland leaving would be even better I am not sure that that resurrecting a conflict which drove rampant sectarianism, gang culture, impoverished a region and killed 3,500 people is worth it for a laugh. On balance. 
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Jun 25, 2016 15:22
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We can say Czechia as of April, we don't have to say Czech Republic.
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Jun 25, 2016 15:23
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mobby_6kl posted:FWIW, a recent poll in the Czech Republic and leave won 53/47, although it was hardly very representative online poll so who the gently caress knows. Still, the more detailed breakdowns were similar to what we've see elsewhere - it's mainly the backwood hicks and olds trying to ruin everything. Somewhat surprisingly, the most/least favorite things between the two groups are very similar: free movement of people and goods is a plus, and everyone is mad about CAP, for example, so it's mostly down to priorities. Still, the country benefits from billions of Euros of additional income so they don't even have that excuse. How much overlap do these demographics have with the ostalgia crowd who convinced themselves that the secret police, purges and lines for everything weren't so bad as long as they couldn't be fired for showing up to work drunk?
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Jun 25, 2016 15:49
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:I am not sure that that resurrecting a conflict which drove rampant sectarianism, gang culture, impoverished a region and killed 3,500 people is worth it for a laugh. On balance. The hopeful reading is that opposition to Brexit overrides the old antagonistic feelings to unify Ireland without inducing another era of rampant murder. Not real likely to say the least but it's a fun hypothetical I guess
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Jun 25, 2016 17:10
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sean10mm posted:The hopeful reading is that opposition to Brexit overrides the old antagonistic feelings to unify Ireland without inducing another era of rampant murder. But..... Wikipedia: Religion in Northern Ireland - 2011 Religion Percent* Protestants** 42% Roman Catholics41% No religion/Not stated 17% Non-Christian religions 1% *May not add to 100% due to rounding ** Presbyterian Church in Ireland, Church of Ireland, Methodist Church in Ireland and others Remain: 58.8% Leave: 44.2% Perhaps Leave virtually = Protestant population and Remain = all others. So, Protestants make up Leave's 42% + 2.2% disaffected others makes up the difference. That does not suggest a dissolving of ancient sectarian divisions. The opposite in fact. 
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Jun 25, 2016 18:09
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If you want to make the UK really mad just switch to US english. Think of the efficiency savings in discarded superfluous U's!
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Jun 25, 2016 18:36
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YF-23 posted:What do the Netherlands have to be mad about against the EU anyway. 6 years of economic crisis while governed by a coalition of liberals who promise austerity and deliver austerity on the one hand, and labor who promised a break from austerity only to deliver the largest budget cuts in the history of the country. We've had wage stagnation, pensions stuck at 0% growth and at risk of being cut, social benefits being cut and retirement age increased to 67. The state pretty much stopped hiring people for 7 years straight to chase after the small government dream. At the peak of the crisis, when unemployment was highest, the pm said that people should not expect government handouts and put more effort into applying for jobs. Shortly after that we had to bail out Greece, again, for doing the opposite. Then a bit later, after officially announcing the end of the welfare state and all but killing off social housing, we were forced to take in 60k refugees from Germany. They now need access to money and housing that the government has told us Dutch citizens no longer deserve. The poor are angry. They are not being listened to and feel they are not getting any benefits from the EU, but all the downsides.
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Jun 25, 2016 18:59
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Private Speech posted:Judging by that link it was a poll of readers though, which is a little different from what most people think of when they hear an "online poll" Yes, but is there a different kind though? I thought they were all garbage anyway. After actually reading it, it also says that their results are about 10pp off in the opposite direction vs properly designed phone polls by other agencies. YF-23 posted:We can say Czechia as of April, we don't have to say Czech Republic.  The_Franz posted:How much overlap do these demographics have with the ostalgia crowd who convinced themselves that the secret police, purges and lines for everything weren't so bad as long as they couldn't be fired for showing up to work drunk?
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Jun 25, 2016 19:10
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mobby_6kl posted:Yes, but is there a different kind though? I thought they were all garbage anyway. After actually reading it, it also says that their results are about 10pp off in the opposite direction vs properly designed phone polls by other agencies. I mean it's still relatively rubbish, but something like yougov online poll research methodology. They've made a reasonably good prediction of the referendum for what it's worth.
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Jun 25, 2016 21:26
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https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/746302049927708672
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Jun 25, 2016 21:56
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Don't stop believing, Guy 
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Jun 25, 2016 21:58
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AAPsel posted:6 years of economic crisis while governed by a coalition of liberals who promise austerity and deliver austerity on the one hand, and labor who promised a break from austerity only to deliver the largest budget cuts in the history of the country. We've had wage stagnation, pensions stuck at 0% growth and at risk of being cut, social benefits being cut and retirement age increased to 67. The state pretty much stopped hiring people for 7 years straight to chase after the small government dream. At the peak of the crisis, when unemployment was highest, the pm said that people should not expect government handouts and put more effort into applying for jobs. Shortly after that we had to bail out Greece, again, for doing the opposite. Then a bit later, after officially announcing the end of the welfare state and all but killing off social housing, we were forced to take in 60k refugees from Germany. They now need access to money and housing that the government has told us Dutch citizens no longer deserve. The poor are angry. They are not being listened to and feel they are not getting any benefits from the EU, but all the downsides. On top of this our politicians are trying to take in as much refugees as we can and give them the houses, welfare, etc the Dutch people don't get. A study showed that 70-80% of the current immigrants still don't have a job after 10 years. It's not just EU politicians the Dutch hate and don't trust. The current sentiment is (and has been for a while) that all politicians are screwing us over. A referendum is the perfect way to give The Hague the finger. Thats what happened with the Ukraine referendum, and if there would be a referendum about the EU in any form, the result would probably be the same. Lots of people might not say that in polls, but it is what's happening.
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Jun 25, 2016 22:37
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YF-23 posted:Aside from Irish English, we're probably not too many years away from Scottish En- Don't stop I'm almost there. Halman posted:If you want to make the UK really mad just switch to US english. Think of the efficiency savings in discarded superfluous U's! Or at the least make it Scottish English for extra 
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Jun 26, 2016 01:15
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Y'all ignore God's English at your peril. 
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Jun 26, 2016 02:30
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Arglebargle III posted:Y'all ignore God's English at your peril. Thou'rst right, we shoulde be using ye Englishe from Kinge James' Bible. 
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Jun 26, 2016 07:19
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Extreme0 posted:Or at the least make it Scottish English for extra Scottish English? Is that just regular English but including the word "outwith"?
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Jun 26, 2016 07:26
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I still say they should just offer to replace any mention of the UK in EU treaties with Scotland.
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Jun 26, 2016 07:34
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sean10mm posted:The hopeful reading is that opposition to Brexit overrides the old antagonistic feelings to unify Ireland without inducing another era of rampant murder. Surely it would also depend on The Republic also wanting to unify. I'd hope we don't Sneaks McDevious fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Jun 26, 2016 |
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Jun 26, 2016 08:06
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LochNessMonster posted:On top of this our politicians are trying to take in as much refugees as we can and give them the houses, welfare, etc the Dutch people don't get. A study showed that 70-80% of the current immigrants still don't have a job after 10 years. Because those filthy foreigners aren't Dutch people but outsiders who deserve nothing. (it's almost like rampant xenophobia is less than conductive to a job hunt)
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Jun 26, 2016 09:09
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Yinlock posted:Because those filthy foreigners aren't Dutch people but outsiders who deserve nothing. There is no doubt anger directed at foreigners for getting prioritized social services over Dutch people. There is no doubt good old fashioned gently caress blackies racism. But why would employers ever hire foreigners who have no education and can barely speak the local language when there are plenty of nearly bi-lingual, well educated educated Dutch people looking for a job?
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Jun 26, 2016 09:59
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It's important to differentiate between the immigrants the UK is worried about (educated people from eastern Europe actually working in jobs) and the immigration continental Europe is worried about (uneducated people from the middle east and north Africa, mostly having to depend on welfare because they don't have marketable skills).
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Jun 26, 2016 10:04
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Yinlock posted:Because those filthy foreigners aren't Dutch people but outsiders who deserve nothing. Do you truly believe employers are so xenophobic that they would rather have positions go unfilled than hire foreigners? AAPsel posted:There is no doubt anger directed at foreigners for getting prioritized social services over Dutch people. There is no doubt good old fashioned gently caress blackies racism. But why would employers ever hire foreigners who have no education and can barely speak the local language when there are plenty of nearly bi-lingual, well educated educated Dutch people looking for a job? This is a far better explanation. In a world where more and tasks get automated, there is less and less demand for low-skilled labour. Foreigners illiterate in every language and with poor to non-existent ability in the local spoken language are exceedingly unlikely to be hired for anything.
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Jun 26, 2016 10:12
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:I am not sure that that resurrecting a conflict which drove rampant sectarianism, gang culture, impoverished a region and killed 3,500 people is worth it for a laugh. Sadly, 52% of Brits disagree with you.
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Jun 26, 2016 10:18
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Kopijeger posted:Do you truly believe employers are so xenophobic that they would rather have positions go unfilled than hire foreigners? the defense would like to present exhibit a: all of north america I suppose you do have a point though, it just seriously rubs me the wrong way when I see immigrants dismissed offhand as foreign savages and not part of the country they now live in so I had a dumb knee-jerk reaction thinking that's what was going on, because the first instinct of any upstanding north american is to barge into situations he knows nothing about and wave his dick around. I apologize. I take it there's a concentrated effort to prevent these people from receiving proper education because the world is just the worst, too.
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Jun 26, 2016 11:49
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Yinlock posted:the defense would like to present exhibit a: all of north america You will be happy to know then that the Syrian brand of immigrants get priority over legal EU immigrants for the services (such as housing and language courses) they directly compete with. Many of these people have a 6-7 year road ahead of them before they have the qualifications of your average Dutch 20 year old. It starts with basic literacy in Latin letters, then goes through Dutch language courses and remedial education at the high school level before they are even allowed to enroll in tertiary education. They have no money. Is it fair the government pays for all of this at a time when education is no longer free for our own citizens?
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Jun 26, 2016 12:16
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mobby_6kl posted:Yeah I know, I just don't like it, seems like aping Slovakia at this point. Speak of the devil! A Slovak nationalist party has already proposed a Slexit (ew) vote. So, I guess every loving country will now have a movement to get a chance for a ritual suicide?
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Jun 26, 2016 12:28
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mobby_6kl posted:Quite a bit, I suspect. But really, what more do you need from life than 2kc beer and 0.3kc buns! The bitter irony is that you can still get bottled beer for like 8 Kc and bread rolls for 1.5 Kc, while median wages have grown tenfold.
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Jun 26, 2016 12:30
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steinrokkan posted:Slexit (ew) The encouragement of this sort of rampant portmanteuing for political movements is likely not the worst thing to come out of the referendum but it's definitely up there
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Jun 26, 2016 12:37
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AAPsel posted:You will be happy to know then that the Syrian brand of immigrants get priority over legal EU immigrants for the services (such as housing and language courses) they directly compete with. Many of these people have a 6-7 year road ahead of them before they have the qualifications of your average Dutch 20 year old. It starts with basic literacy in Latin letters, then goes through Dutch language courses and remedial education at the high school level before they are even allowed to enroll in tertiary education. They have no money. Is it fair the government pays for all of this at a time when education is no longer free for our own citizens? Those Syrian immigrants ARE "your own citizens" but I think education should be free for everyone. Those people have been through the worst poo poo imaginable and deserve a second chance to actually have a life that isn't complete poo poo, but making others pay for education is pretty lovely too. everything is terrible yayyyy
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Jun 26, 2016 12:43
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steinrokkan posted:Speak of the devil! A Slovak nationalist party has already proposed a Slexit (ew) vote. So, I guess every loving country will now have a movement to get a chance for a ritual suicide? I think you would find support for the EU in Western Europe increase dramatically if all the Eastern Europeans decide to quit it.
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