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well, the idea is that a stable version of gtk 4 would be backwards compatible. so if an application developed against gtk 4.6 breaks when upgrading to gtk 4.7 then that's a bug in gtk 4 that needs to be fixed. and until it's stable people shouldn't be developing against gtk 4. it would help if they used the odd/even unstable/stable convention instead but  the plans haven't been finalized iirc, maybe they'll end up doing that.applications becoming responsible for bundling an up-to-date version of openssl would kinda suck though.
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Jul 6, 2016 02:31
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Mr Dog posted:well, the idea is that a stable version of gtk 4 would be backwards compatible. so if an application developed against gtk 4.6 breaks when upgrading to gtk 4.7 then that's a bug in gtk 4 that needs to be fixed. and until it's stable people shouldn't be developing against gtk 4. it would help if they used the odd/even unstable/stable convention instead but everything i have seen suggests exactly the opposite. gtk 4.x releases will break abi and api on each point release additionally, if they don't intend for people to develop for it... why are they doing releases!? Mr Dog posted:applications becoming responsible for bundling an up-to-date version of openssl would kinda suck though. welcome to the brave new world of snappy/flatpack/docker-on-the-desktop everything will be security holes all the loving time because developers are lazy as poo poo
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Jul 6, 2016 02:35
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distributors like red hat will never agree to support a moving target, even if it is a product they develop internally so we will always have rhel and centos to fall back on I agree that it could lead to a unique deployment mechanism specifically for commercial packages that should be sandboxed and understandably require their own deployment libraries complete with outdated openssl libraries and name resolvers. It's better than having to maintain the only rhel 5 computer that only the most graybeard of sysadmins can keep running.
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Jul 6, 2016 02:52
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:everything i have seen suggests exactly the opposite. gtk 4.x releases will break abi and api on each point release beta testing isn't free... it's got to cost someone's time I mean, it built and starts up so that should be enough for the developer to get it out the door
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Jul 6, 2016 02:55
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Mr Dog posted:A runtime will contain things like Gtk+, Wayland, and PulseAudio client libraries, but not Xorg or GNOME Shell or whatever. Those are considered part of the OS and are not managed by FlatPak, so the runtimes are not distros. only on Planet Linux are the core UI toolkit, graphics, and sound libraries not "part of the OS." the Linux world is apparently taking all the wrong lessons from macOS app packaging to avoid having to make any goddamn commitment whatsoever to ABI stability and binary compatibility
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Jul 6, 2016 03:01
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Mr Dog posted:No, not "literally" 20. Maybe literally two or at most three copies of Gtk itself. You realize Qt4 applications are not exactly extinct in the wild either, right? you're going to wind up with at least 20 slightly-different copies of Gtk on the average Linux system if this braindead garbage system is adopted
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Jul 6, 2016 03:03
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Mr Dog posted:It's a bit of a PR nightmare but there's at least some merit to the argument. Basically, major things have changed in the world of GUIs since Gtk 2 was the latest and greatest. HiDPI emerging on consumer platforms is one, and a universal expectation of tear-free hardware accelerated UI compositing is another. These are breaking changes, you cannot retrofit a repaint-on-expose application to use vsynced double buffering without losing most of the benefit of double buffering. And the Gtk team do actually have some credibility in that they do continue to maintain Gtk 2. and yet the AppKit API has worked for both repaint-on-expose and double-buffering since before GNOME was a thing and not only that, but hasn't had to actually change much in that time to accommodate new display technologies like, support for layer-backed views was added to AppKit in 10.5 or 10.6 last decade, 20 years after AppKit was initially written, without breaking existing code; you don't even have to use it in order to build decent applications unless you're putting literally hundreds to thousands of views on screen Gtk has had API breakages due to their incompetence at being an API vendor, not because they were doing things that needed to break API
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Jul 6, 2016 03:09
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eschaton posted:the Linux world is apparently taking all the wrong lessons from macOS app packaging to avoid having to make any goddamn commitment whatsoever to ABI stability and binary compatibility
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Jul 6, 2016 03:30
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/13-billion-red-hat-threw-233118067.htmlquote:This week's Red Hat Summit, a tech conference, in San Francisco closed out its keynote session with a bang — an onstage wedding, officiated by Red Hat tech EVP Paul Cormier, with CEO Jim Whitehurst acting as ring bearer.
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Jul 6, 2016 03:46
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My late father, Lou Shapiro, was an early leader of UNICEF, so relief work was baked into the genetics of my family. His work was centered on emergency relief for the survivors of earthquakes and other natural disasters. Whenever there was an earthquake in the world, I knew dad would be coming home late from work—and I was so proud that some family experiencing trauma would be sleeping in a dry tent, with warm blankets and clean water, because of my dad's work. Following in my father's footsteps, my own relief work has been centered on digital inclusion—and open source is the tool I turn to most often. Let me share two stories with you in that regard. In April, a young dad visited the public library where I work. He appeared interested in using the public computers our library offers. It turns out someone had stolen his family's only computer, a Macbook, and his tax return was due that day. When I learned about his predicament, I asked, "Would you like to borrow a Linux laptop until your family buys another laptop?" He perked up and asked, "Does this library lend laptops?" I replied, "The library doesn't, but I do. You can bring this back to me after you're done with it." I purposely didn't ask him for his phone number. His trust had been betrayed and it was vital for this nice community member to be now bathed in trust. He asked me, "How do I return the laptop?" My answer: "You walk up to me and hand it to me when you're done using it. Here is my email address, in case you have any questions about it." On that difficult day for him, he experienced Linux as the face of kindness. He might have never used a Linux computer before, but here was his opportunity to do so. Maybe this Linux laptop was the silver lining to his stolen Macbook setback? He returned the Linux laptop promptly and gratefully after his family had saved money to buy a replacement laptop—about a month later. Linux saved the day. It wasn't me who saved the day—I was just the delivery vehicle for Linux. Another community resident recently called me frantically, "My Windows desktop computer stopped working. I need to be online and I don't have money to buy a replacement." My answer: "Let me stop by after work and loan you the Linux desktop I have in the trunk of my car. I'll find you a donated Windows desktop, but it's going to take me about a month or so." I was able to find her a nice donated Windows 10 desktop and the Linux loaner suited her needs very well during the interim. I loved her comment to me when she returned the Linux loaner: "I loved exploring Linux and except for the fact that Linux doesn't run Hulu. I'd gladly switch from being a Windows user to being a Linux user." My reply to her was, "I want you to use the computer that works best for your needs, whether that be a Windows computer, a Linux computer, or something else." I don't want folks to use Linux if that's not the best computer for their needs. While she was borrowing the Linux loaner computer, she sent me several very interesting technical questions about Linux. That Linux loaner computer served its purpose well. It tided her over while allowing her to explore Linux as a possible option for her own needs. When people are experiencing hardship in their lives, I try to lessen their burden using refurbished Linux desktops and laptops. I say, let them experience Linux as the face of kindness. For some, they can experience this kindness as a simple act of kindness. For others, it may open new doorways of opportunities in their lives. And then they themselves might choose to offer Linux as the face of kindness. If you'd like to give this kind of thing a try, here are a few tips. Even though it will slightly reduce the fuel efficiency of your car, I suggest carrying a spare Linux desktop (or laptop) in the trunk of your car, ready to lend out on short notice. Somebody, somewhere will be immensely grateful that you anticipated their need—in the same way that UNICEF anticipates the need of earthquake survivors. Go the extra mile and bundle in a page or two of helpful instructions, if you feel so inclined. Place the most useful applications as icons on the desktop. Make sure you install TuxPaint, because the loaner computer might be used by young kids who would find that software immensely enjoyable. Bundle in an optical mouse. Don't forget to tell the recipient the computer system password. And if you don't own a car, find a Linux buddy to work together on such a project. The dividends from such a project can be emotionally lucrative. And if the world has greater kindness as a result, we all could live with that. Let a wave of kindness wash across the world. Who knows what it will wash away.
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Jul 6, 2016 22:11
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Condiv posted:My late father, Lou Shapiro, was an early leader of UNICEF, so relief work was baked into the genetics of my family. His work was centered on emergency relief for the survivors of earthquakes and other natural disasters. Whenever there was an earthquake in the world, I knew dad would be coming home late from work—and I was so proud that some family experiencing trauma would be sleeping in a dry tent, with warm blankets and clean water, because of my dad's work. Following in my father's footsteps, my own relief work has been centered on digital inclusion—and open source is the tool I turn to most often. same
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Jul 6, 2016 23:56
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Mr Dog posted:people shouldn't be developing against gtk 4. so why make it?
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Jul 8, 2016 04:37
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Libsepol was using cdefs.h, which is a internal glibc header so it wouldn't compile against any non-glibc library. What the gently caress is this lazy bullshit? I fixed it and submitted a patch, but that shouldn't have been there to begin with. It was so they could use: __BEGIN_DECLS and __END_DECLS instead of code:
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Jul 8, 2016 16:39
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does it say private header in big honking letters? did they have to do something special to use it? if not then I can't really blame them
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Jul 8, 2016 18:12
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:does it say private header in big honking letters? did they have to do something special to use it? It's non standard and other C libraries don't include it. For something such as this that could be integral to a base Linux system they shouldn't use it.
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Jul 8, 2016 18:15
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ratbert90 posted:Libsepol was using cdefs.h, which is a internal glibc header so it wouldn't compile against any non-glibc library. BSD has had <sys/cdefs.h> since at least the early 1990s, the one in macOS has a Berkeley copyright from 1991 wouldn't surprise me in the least if glibc took it from BSD initially
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Jul 8, 2016 18:26
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eschaton posted:BSD has had <sys/cdefs.h> since at least the early 1990s, the one in macOS has a Berkeley copyright from 1991 Which is fine, but not cross platform compatible (hence why musl failed to compile it).
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Jul 8, 2016 18:34
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Jul 8, 2016 18:45
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Sorry; the embedded world can't always rely on gigantic libraries. Also people use it for __BEGIN_DECLS and __END_DECLS which is clearly internal. Hence the __ in front of the macro. The explanation I got from the developers themselves: quote:The original purpose of cdefs.h was to provide some infrastructure used internally by the standard library headers for compatibility with old/broken compilers or for making use of new gcc extensions. FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 18:46
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ratbert90 posted:Which is fine, but not cross platform compatible (hence why musl failed to compile it). gesundheit
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Jul 9, 2016 02:51
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Progressive JPEG posted:gesundheit musltov
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Jul 9, 2016 04:29
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ahmeni posted:musltov
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Jul 9, 2016 20:06
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its time, im thinking of what linux distro i want to have on my laptop, just in case
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Jul 11, 2016 16:48
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last time i was using linux for stuff i had vm with fedora, but that was slow af thinking to try something new this time, so opensuse leap/tumbleweed arch linux/manjaro anyoen?
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Jul 11, 2016 16:58
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slackware lindows red flag linux
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Jul 11, 2016 17:10
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I tried Fedora and Ubuntu Gnome a couple of days ago. First Fedora, fonts looked ugly af, so installed Infinality. During setup, the whole system crashed hard. Couldn't switch console, or shut down X. Rebooted. Found out that it somehow hosed with the UEFI partition, so booting Windows was out of the question. Luckily the Windows install disc fixed it. Removed that POS immediately, and installed Ubuntu Gnome. Really nice, but a bit slow. Inconsistend fonts across applications. But otherwise cool. But still slow. Went back to Windows, and it feels like a hardware upgrade. Thank you, Linux.
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Jul 11, 2016 17:17
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kalstrams posted:last time i was using linux for stuff i had vm with fedora, but that was slow af have you considered bash for ubuntu for windows 10?
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Jul 11, 2016 17:21
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Endless Mike posted:have you considered bash for ubuntu for windows 10?
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Jul 11, 2016 17:40
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Progressive JPEG posted:slackware uh i think u mean red star os
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Jul 11, 2016 17:48
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kalstrams posted:i have but im not sure if i will get special snowflake linux software working on it Absolutely do not try to do physics on a Windows machine, nothing will work and you will regret it. Ubuntu is also pretty annoying for scientific stuff because often you will want some up-to-date library but Ubuntu will be stuck with something from 2010, so you'll have to install from source. I would honestly go with Fedora--it shouldn't really be any slower than any other Linux, so the slowness was probably your VM (or your DE). It'll be up to date and secure, and RHEL linuxes are pretty professional feeling. Arch is nice too, but I wouldn't put it on a work laptop because stuff will break and if it happens while you are on a tight deadline you are boned unless you are real good at diagnosing and fixing Linux stuff real quick.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:25
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VikingofRock posted:Arch is nice too, but I wouldn't put it on a work laptop because stuff will break and if it happens while you are on a tight deadline you are boned unless you are real good at diagnosing and fixing Linux stuff real quick. :austinpowerssay: I see you've installed Arch Linux on your work laptop. I also like to live dangerously.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:58
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Captain Foo posted:uh i think u mean red star os oh right yeah 
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Jul 11, 2016 19:34
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VikingofRock posted:Absolutely do not try to do physics on a Windows machine, nothing will work and you will regret it. Ubuntu is also pretty annoying for scientific stuff because often you will want some up-to-date library but Ubuntu will be stuck with something from 2010, so you'll have to install from source. I would honestly go with Fedora--it shouldn't really be any slower than any other Linux, so the slowness was probably your VM (or your DE). It'll be up to date and secure, and RHEL linuxes are pretty professional feeling. Arch is nice too, but I wouldn't put it on a work laptop because stuff will break and if it happens while you are on a tight deadline you are boned unless you are real good at diagnosing and fixing Linux stuff real quick. i thought everyone in physics was using a mac these days
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Jul 11, 2016 19:40
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kalstrams posted:last time i was using linux for stuff i had vm with fedora, but that was slow af Opensuse Tumbleweed I found only works on some host software for a vm, others it gets only a boot or two before turning horribly broken and never going to desktop again, or recognizing all commands. Netrunner Rolling isn't too bad of an Arch based option and it's just an image, so no actually dealing with the joys Arch likes to throw at people. Or use GoboLinux for a few months and/or until you never want to leave Fedora again.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:46
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have u considered gentoo, op
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Jul 11, 2016 20:50
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if you are seriously running desktop software in a VM then I have nothing to tell you except my condolences
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Jul 11, 2016 21:30
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just run something, anything, that doesn't use a compositing 3d window manager and you should clear up a lot of performance issues not because 3d is slow on VMs (it's getting better, but not 100%) but because 3d compositing window managers are poo poo and don't work well in VMs with the need to use hot corners and etc
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Jul 11, 2016 21:34
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i guess fedora it is then, and rolling something will have to wait until i get another computer or two and have one to dick aroundVikingofRock posted:Absolutely do not try to do physics on a Windows machine, nothing will work and you will regret it. Ubuntu is also pretty annoying for scientific stuff because often you will want some up-to-date library but Ubuntu will be stuck with something from 2010, so you'll have to install from source. I would honestly go with Fedora--it shouldn't really be any slower than any other Linux, so the slowness was probably your VM (or your DE). It'll be up to date and secure, and RHEL linuxes are pretty professional feeling. Arch is nice too, but I wouldn't put it on a work laptop because stuff will break and if it happens while you are on a tight deadline you are boned unless you are real good at diagnosing and fixing Linux stuff real quick. hobbesmaster posted:i thought everyone in physics was using a mac these days Endless Mike posted:have u considered gentoo, op cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 21:47
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lol if you use linux with a window manager that is NOT a tiling window manager
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Jul 11, 2016 22:01
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hobbesmaster posted:i thought everyone in physics was using a mac these days This is mostly true in my experience (and I use a Mac too), but Apple keeps doing things which make life harder for physicists so people are maybe starting to move away from OSX. The SIP stuff with El Capitan in particular broke a ton of physics software and made everyone mad.
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Jul 11, 2016 22:28
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