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Movies in The Olden Dayes (from 1936 to around 2000) generally had a better balance of tones. There were often comic relief bits or even musical numbers that didn't undermine the gravity of the serious story parts, and vise-versa.
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Jul 13, 2016 18:29
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neonnoodle posted:Movies in The Olden Dayes (from 1936 to around 2000) generally had a better balance of tones. There were often comic relief bits or even musical numbers that didn't undermine the gravity of the serious story parts, and vise-versa. You only remember good films from that era.
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Jul 13, 2016 19:51
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That's not true, I remember Don Bluth's later works.
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Jul 13, 2016 20:44
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neonnoodle posted:Movies in The Olden Dayes (from 1936 to around 2000) generally had a better balance of tones. There were often comic relief bits or even musical numbers that didn't undermine the gravity of the serious story parts, and vise-versa. Every once in a while, someone unintentionally reminds me of the gargoyles in Hunchback and I get weirdly angry.
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Jul 13, 2016 21:06
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Even then, it's surprisingly easy to edit them out (until the ending). I created such a version for my personal enjoyment (dont sue me Disney)
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Jul 13, 2016 21:09
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Pick posted:Even then, it's surprisingly easy to edit them out (until the ending). I created such a version for my personal enjoyment (dont sue me Disney) Wouldn't keeping them in for all parts EXCEPT for the ending make the "Quasimodo is imagining them" thing easier to swallow?
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Jul 13, 2016 21:16
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I don't care if he's imagining them, I just care that they're stupid
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Jul 13, 2016 21:56
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Hellfiiiiiiire, daarkkkkk fiiiiire---- *distant fart*
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Jul 13, 2016 22:05
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Disney was afraid of a movie that stayed unhappy for such a long stretch. Every renaissance-era film got a G, right?
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Jul 13, 2016 22:28
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Wulfolme posted:Disney was afraid of a movie that stayed unhappy for such a long stretch. Every renaissance-era film got a G, right? Unless you count Dinosaur, which the Wikia I got this info apparently does. (Really? Who counts Dinosaur as part of the Disney Animated Canon? Who even remembers Dinosaur?) I've also noticed pretty much every single CG film since at least Tangled has been PG, too, and yet I don't think they're any less intense than Renaissance-era Disney was. Not sure what's going on, there; changing standards is my only guess (the same reason why so many games that the ESRB would have rated E in past generations are now E-10+).
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Jul 13, 2016 22:54
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Wulfolme posted:Disney was afraid of a movie that stayed unhappy for such a long stretch. Every renaissance-era film got a G, right? Yes. At this point though, PG and G are not easily differentiated and most parents don't seem to care.
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Jul 13, 2016 22:55
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Shadow Hog posted:Unless you count Dinosaur, which the Wikia I got this info apparently does. (Really? Who counts Dinosaur as part of the Disney Animated Canon? Who even remembers Dinosaur?) Europe doesn't. Europe counts The Wild instead. Disney didn't even MAKE The Wild, they merely distributed it.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:00
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K. Waste posted:Speaking of which, I really need to see Belladonna of Sadness. The restored version just came out on Blu-Ray/VOD yesterday. It's worth the VOD rental, at the very least.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:08
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Yoshi Jjang posted:I'm OK!
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Jul 13, 2016 23:10
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I want "I'M OK" on my tombstone and nothing else.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:39
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:You should be. The plot of the film is literally "No matter how happy and in love this woman is with this man she would still be better off if he was dead because he's in a wheelchair ." Missed this, but yeah, all joking aside, I rarely get actually angry at films, versus ha-ha internet angry. But that one made me legitimately furious. I still have complicated feelings about how Hunchback ended*, but hooooo boy at least they were aware of it and kind of trying! Which might not seem like a high bar, but here we are, 20 years later, reminding everyone physically different that they're better off dead. *mostly because it feels it's getting conflated with him putting her on a pedestal, which Phoebus doesn't do. And she does a better job saving Phoebus than he does of saving her, which is maybe a lesson, I don't know??
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Jul 13, 2016 23:44
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Pick posted:Missed this, but yeah, all joking aside, I rarely get actually angry at films, versus ha-ha internet angry. But that one made me legitimately furious. I still have complicated feelings about how Hunchback ended*, but hooooo boy at least they were aware of it and kind of trying! Which might not seem like a high bar, but here we are, 20 years later, reminding everyone physically different that they're better off dead. Yeah, the way the romance in Hunchback of Notre-dame plays out makes me feel pretty conflicted. One the one hand I like the lesson of "okay, so the girl you had a crush on doesn't feel the same the same way about you. That's fine, you should respect her feelings and move on with your life. Get out there and meet new people!" On the other hand Disney chooses to teach this lesson to the only disabled protagonist* they've ever had, and there's still a romance in the movie but it's between two able bodied characters. If there was at least one other Disney movie** where a disabled person gets to have a happy romantic relationship I wouldn't mind it so much, but there isn't so it really does kind of bug me. *until Dory of Finding Dory came along. **yes I know Quasimodo gets a girlfriend in Hunchback of Notre-Dame 2, but that's a direct to video movie. I'm talking about an in theater movie.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:12
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Wulfolme posted:Disney was afraid of a movie that stayed unhappy for such a long stretch. Every renaissance-era film got a G, right? Don't forget the Genie Factor. Aladdin made SO MUCH MONEY because of Genie, and for TLK Timon and Pumbaa were extremely popular, so the Gargoyles was one of the many "Let's try to catch lightning in the bottle again!" attempts at capturing the magic. Problem is the Gargoyles don't have Robin William's Charisma oozing out of the screen, and they don't get out of the way/shut up during more serious moments like Timon and Pumbaa did, so they ended up becoming very distracting. Genie also had his own pathos/arc and was involved with the plot, the Gargoyles were just there to be funny.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:20
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Yeah, the way the romance in Hunchback of Notre-dame plays out makes me feel pretty conflicted. I think my solution for it would be just to have her not end up with Phoebus either. Which I think is the strongest ending. They help her because she's a good person trying to prevent  ethnic cleansing, plus she's their friend. That would also make their feuding a little funnier, because in the end, neither "wins" (yet, anyway). That said, this was right after Pocahontas, where the romance doesn't work out and that was a big deal at the time, they may have been shy of doing it twice in a row.By the way, Michael Surrey's work animating Clopin loving owns bones. Like yeah, James Baxter and Kathy Zielinski's work is out of this world, but let's take a moment to appreciate Surrey's too. I think HoND might be the best-animated traditionally-animated feture film, alongside Treasure Planet. Surrey's work on Rourke in Atlantis is also loving top tier, loving great. Pick fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 00:48
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Samuel Clemens posted:That's not true, I remember Don Bluth's later works. Rockadoodle is a pretty great example of that conflation of tone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2gWQDBEhCk
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Jul 14, 2016 00:49
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Shbobdb posted:The Good Dinosaur was really weak. Pixar's B team is some Caillou level poo poo. B teams only get invoked as a way to retroactively rationalize why a piece of media was bad in a way that doesn't reflect poorly on the parent company. The Lion King was a B team movie.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:07
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:On the other hand Disney chooses to teach this lesson to the only disabled protagonist* they've ever had, and there's still a romance in the movie but it's between two able bodied characters. Practically speaking, in the Disney version his disability is reduced to "being ugly". So it feels somewhat deserved that he's rejected by someone whom he idolized primarily based on her physical attractiveness -- i.e. something he felt he didn't have. Having gained more self-confidence by the end of the movie, he appears to be set free from the unhealthy infatuation (the same one that consumed Frollo) and he doesn't even really have to go through an actual "rejection" to get there. Seems like a win to me.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:27
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Guy Mann posted:B teams only get invoked as a way to retroactively rationalize why a piece of media was bad in a way that doesn't reflect poorly on the parent company. The Lion King was a B team movie. Pocahontas was the A movie, and they didn't expect the Lion King to do as well as it did. "Sir Lemming posted:Practically speaking, in the Disney version his disability is reduced to "being ugly". So it feels somewhat deserved that he's rejected by someone whom he idolized primarily based on her physical attractiveness -- i.e. something he felt he didn't have. Having gained more self-confidence by the end of the movie, he appears to be set free from the unhealthy infatuation (the same one that consumed Frollo) and he doesn't even really have to go through an actual "rejection" to get there. Seems like a win to me. I think it's a little unfair to say Quasi was purely infatuated by her looks, that's Frollo's bag, he elevated her to a level of an Angel because she treated him with human decency. Like how Phoebus and Esmeralda saw him as a human, he loses his infatuation on realizing she's no magical cure for his loneliness and she's just as human as he is. I do think it would've been better if Esmeralda didn't get with anyone, especially as I felt it was rather abrupt, but nothing's perfect. Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 03:28
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I still love that one of Frollo's main motivations was "HELP I HAVE A BONER AND JESUS SAYS I SHOULDN'T"
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Jul 14, 2016 03:44
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Sir Lemming posted:Practically speaking, in the Disney version his disability is reduced to "being ugly". So it feels somewhat deserved that he's rejected by someone whom he idolized primarily based on her physical attractiveness -- i.e. something he felt he didn't have. Having gained more self-confidence by the end of the movie, he appears to be set free from the unhealthy infatuation (the same one that consumed Frollo) and he doesn't even really have to go through an actual "rejection" to get there. Seems like a win to me. He languishes for like, a WHILE, while Esmerelda and Phoebus make out on Quasimodo's own bed, which is for real tacky.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:57
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Let's be real here, we can rib Quasimodo for being a guy who sits inside all day playing with figurines and talking to himself, but it is straight-up rude to dump a hot guy in his bed and then kiss the hot guy for like five minutes and then say "thank you my friend, for housing this hot guy for me"
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Jul 14, 2016 04:03
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Quasi got kicked out of his own room for hotel sex.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:08
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I find it hard to believe that we live in a time where less than an hour after the Jurassic World trailer went up someone made a gif of the two raptors fist bumping while running past the motorcycle and yet no one has made a cut of Hunchback that removed the gargoyles completely. I don't "hate" them, but the more I think about it the more I realize they brought absolutely nothing of substance to the movie (unless you want to count Hugo as the first openly gay Disney character, which I don't think anyone wants to do).
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Jul 14, 2016 04:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tre9HDvhhx0 By the way, this might be the first instance of Youtube comments being pretty good in history. quote:While I feel a little bad for Quasimodo, I'm glad she got together with Pheobus. A relationship with Quasimodo, who sees her as some sort of angel, would be less of a romantic relationship and more like that of a dog and it's owner. Quasimodo is easily the type, (due to his abusive background) to do whatever Esmeralda says without question or arguing and that really doesn't seem like a good relationship. With Pheobus and Esmeralda, they seem to be on more equal footing. Pheobus loves Esmeralda and respects her, but he doesn't fall down and worship the ground she walks on. She's still a human being to him and vice versa. They both have plenty of self respect as well as respect for each other, and overall that makes their relationship feel more balanced and stable. quote:You know, I was one of those kids who didn't understand why Esmeralda didn't end up with Quasimodo. If he's a good guy and he loves her, they're meant to be, right? But then I rewatched the movie a few days ago, thinking "if they did it, surely, they had a reason, it's so unlike Disney" and realized that this was never meant to be a love story. Phoebus didn't matter. It was always meant to be a story about how appearances are deceiving and what makes us human lies inside. They say it all in the opening song "this is a story about a man and a monster, but who is the man and who is the monster?" Both Frollo and Quasimodo wanted Esmeralda. Neither could have her. Frollo proved himself to be the true monster by feeling entitled to her anyway and hurting everyone in the process, basing his actions on the sole basis that "My needs are righteous and if I want something doesn't it mean I was destined to have it?". Quasimodo proved himself to be the true human by respecting Esmeralda's choice and saving her life nonetheless, even if he could not have her himself. Basically all of us who couldn't respect Esmeralda's choice were thinking like Frollo. It doesn't mean I completely agree, but I'm still staggered. He should have asked her out though, I think she might have gone for it if Phoebus wasn't so drat quick. Then again he only had like a day to rally himself which is asking a little much of him. Maybe Phoebus will die of typhus and he'll get another chance. dirksteadfast posted:I find it hard to believe that we live in a time where less than an hour after the Jurassic World trailer went up someone made a gif of the two raptors fist bumping while running past the motorcycle and yet no one has made a cut of Hunchback that removed the gargoyles completely. I don't "hate" them, but the more I think about it the more I realize they brought absolutely nothing of substance to the movie (unless you want to count Hugo as the first openly gay Disney character, which I don't think anyone wants to do). The Reluctant Dragon. Also, my version really does remove moooost of the gargoyles, but yeah someone else could do it better (choppy music problems etc, could probably just have holds on some of the prettier background shots). Hard to get them all out though, they're hanging around in some important areas, especially near the end. Pick fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 04:17
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The thing about saying, like, "Esmerelda shoulda ended up with Quasi!" or "Esmerelda doesn't need any man!" is that it either patronizes her sexuality or represses it completely. And by focusing on the superficial content of the love triangle, we lose track of the actually really perverted thing about Esmerelda matching up with Phoebus: It's that ostensibly under the banner of 'progressive Christianity,' Phoebus's callous murdering of Muslims is whitewashed. What you get with The Hunchback of Notre Dame is a compromised critique of fundamentalist religion which attempts to weave precisely the kind of overtly sexual drama as Sleeping Beauty: The whole point is that the villain (Maleficent or Frollo) is both anti-Christ as well as a pure manifestation of fundamentalist sexual repression. Aurora/Esmerelda are human sacrifices of vice laws and religious-political pretexts.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:29
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the stage musical of the Disney hunchback of notre dame gets rid of the comic relief gargoyles (there is a choir that represents the gargoyles but they exist to be Quasimodo's concious and never enter wacky sidekick territory.) the musical also leaves in all the darkness, Esmeralda dies, there is attempted rape, Quasimodo straight up murders Frollo. it's really really good and still has the Disney soundtrack. it closed and isn't moving to Broadway because of dumb Union poo poo not wanting to pay the full choir but it's all up on YouTube and I love it a lot. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VIoxqM4loNw making of the cast recording.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:32
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K. Waste posted:The thing about saying, like, "Esmerelda shoulda ended up with Quasi!" or "Esmerelda doesn't need any man!" is that it either patronizes her sexuality or represses it completely. I disagree. I like the ending where it's not settled yet because they've had more important poo poo to do. It'd be pretty novel to end with Phoebus and Quasi still both vying for her with no clear winner. Quasimodo is great in a lot of ways; he's got a stable job (Phoebus got fired and whether or not Frollo was a turd, he's probably career-hosed for a while), loving awesome living arrangements he parkours like a champion, he can sing beautifully (Phoebus can't sing and guys who can sing are the best), he can build stuff, he gets along great with animals (Phoebus doesn't, aside from his own horse), he's strong, he's cute, and he is a sweet/brave dude. Frollo also had some pros too, but not enough (coolest Disney horse). Also if Quasimodo really was Frollo's son, legally, he's probably loaded now. Phoebus is totally workable but they keep mentioning he's been gone for "20 years", which is an age gap greater than the one they tried to retcon between Belle and Adam. Frankly I'd go for Quasimodo but he must, absolutely must, stop talking to the gargoyles Pick fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 04:34
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Pick posted:I disagree. I like the ending where it's not settled yet because they've had more important poo poo to do. It'd be pretty novel to end with Phoebus and Quasi still both vying for her with no clear winner. Or, alternatively, she picks both of them and the film ends in a happy ménage à trois. But I'm not sure Disney was ready to have a movie with a polyamoric relationship at the time, or right now for that matter.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:42
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also this song is so good, Esmeralda rules even more in the stage production https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxqV2mT4GHM
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Jul 14, 2016 04:46
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Or, alternatively, she picks both of them and the film ends in a happy ménage à trois. Phoebus and Frollo have great chemistry and are bachelors despite being 40+ years old, sounds like the two of them should just bang it out and Esmerelda and Quasimodo can keep singing Alan Menken songs in one of the world's most beautiful cathedrals.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:47
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I admit I'm a bit biased as Esmeralda was pretty much my first lesbian crush (along with Carmen Sandiego) so the jealous ten-year old is probably talking.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:04
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Pick posted:Phoebus and Frollo have great chemistry and are bachelors despite being 40+ years old, sounds like the two of them should just bang it out and Esmerelda and Quasimodo can keep singing Alan Menken songs in one of the world's most beautiful cathedrals. Well Quasimodo is single because he was locked in a bell tower for his entire life (and let me tell ya: bell towers are a terrible place to try picking up chicks or dudes. Trust me on this), but as for Phoebus... Of course in the book the reason Phoebus is single is because he's a callous womanizer. Also Esmerelda is only 16, but Phoebus sleeps with her anyway. Then she's executed, and Quasimodo runs off with her corpse and starves to death. And that's just a handful of the many horribly messed up things that happen in the orginal novel. I know lots of people have made this observation before, but I still have NO idea why Disney thought Hunchback of Notre-Dame was a good story to turn into an animated musical for children as opposed to literally anything else. Space Cadet Omoly fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 05:14
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Robindaybird posted:I admit I'm a bit biased as Esmeralda was pretty much my first lesbian crush (along with Carmen Sandiego) so the jealous ten-year old is probably talking. same. and captain Amelia from treasure planet 
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Jul 14, 2016 05:15
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Das Boo posted:Quasi got kicked out of his own room for hotel sex.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:15
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Troposphere posted:same. and captain Amelia from treasure planet I don't loving care if she's an alien-space cat, I like her. But really, it's kind of amazing how overtly sexual Meg and Esmeralda are compare to earlier princesses, and Jasmine while more chaste had her moments.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:21
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