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ChainsawCharlie posted:loving hell salt the loving Earth.this reads like a comedy of errors where everyone is a incompetent fool or moronically corrupt. this is the IMF we're talking about
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Aug 1, 2016 11:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Wouldn't home ownership be far more common among the people who reliably vote though? Or is it not high enough even there for this to be a good talking point? They played a stupid gamble - people who own homes also tend to be more politically right-wing and those people see the EU as a bunch of loony lefties who send their IMMYGRUNTS here. Compared to the apathetic 'generation rent' who see the house price drop as a good thing, the message of "Remain keeps houses expensive" being a good thing was ultimately lost. Not to mention even home owners don't necessarily want house prices to go up: sure your house is worth more but unless you're downsizing to a less expensive property that price increase is worthless - the house you'd otherwise intend to buy is now also more expensive, and probably exponentially (albeit a small exponent, but still larger than 1).
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Aug 1, 2016 11:06
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Question from an American: Do folks in the UK pay US-style property taxes? (IE, if your home is worth X amount market value, you pay Y percentage in taxes)
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Aug 1, 2016 13:22
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Spacewolf posted:Question from an American: Do folks in the UK pay US-style property taxes? (IE, if your home is worth X amount market value, you pay Y percentage in taxes) It's part of council tax, yes, and it's banded according to the value of your property at the time of last appraisal.
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Aug 1, 2016 13:59
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Cardiac posted:So you want to build actual ghettoes where we stuff all the immigrants? No? To re-iterate, MiddleOne posted:There sure is. In the olden days that was resolved by the government declaring that 1 million occupancies should be built. To accomplish this they gave the state pension funds clear directions to finance the necessary activities. This enabled municipal stakeholders to build massive amounts of housing and rental properties of which only the high-density (1/3 of total) have been proven bad decisions in retrospect. (socially, financially they were all sound) Socially being the important part. Those are the kinds of mistakes that wouldn't have to be re-visited in a hypothetical round 2. Which we need by the way, badly. Cardiac posted:Also, the public overspending in the 70s directly caused the crash in the 90s. We had massive inflation and 10% interest rates in the 80s as a cause of this. That's just completely false. There was a systematic over-reliance on Keynesian measures in most pre-80's western economies but what actually brought the inflation crisis was the second Saudi oil crisis and the collapse of the Bretton Woods system under Reagan. As for the swedish 90's crash, that was a result of a commercial real estate bubble fueled by bank deregulation and government tax credits.
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Aug 1, 2016 14:57
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...5415_story.htmlquote:SALZBURG, Austria On a crisp morning last October, 198 migrants arrived on the Greek island of Leros, all of them seemingly desperate people seeking sanctuary in Europe. But hiding among them were four men with a very different agenda.
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Aug 4, 2016 15:14
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It really would've made a lot more sense to start vetting people at the refugee camps and flying them in years ago instead of ignoring the problem until it literally knocked on our door and the choices were to either leave people stranded in the Balkans or open up the borders to set off a mortally dangerous social darwinian free-for-all and funnel what little money the refugees had to criminal human traffickers. We basically waited until all there was left to pick were the worst and second-worst options.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:30
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It would've helped even more to not have participated in military interventions in the middle east but oh well, Hollande needs to look strong.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:55
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aphid_licker posted:It really would've made a lot more sense to start vetting people at the refugee camps and flying them in years ago instead of ignoring the problem until it literally knocked on our door and the choices were to either leave people stranded in the Balkans or open up the borders to set off a mortally dangerous social darwinian free-for-all and funnel what little money the refugees had to criminal human traffickers. We basically waited until all there was left to pick were the worst and second-worst options. There wouldn't be worldwide refugee waves if the UN quotas weren't a joke, so in a way, yes.
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Aug 4, 2016 17:05
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YF-23 posted:It would've helped even more to not have participated in military interventions in the middle east but oh well, Hollande needs to look strong. It would have helped if Greece would have protected its border or registered the refugees it let in.
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Aug 4, 2016 17:26
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No.
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Aug 4, 2016 17:37
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GaussianCopula posted:It would have helped if Greece would have protected its border or registered the refugees it let in.  Versus letting them drown, like you wanted to do.
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Aug 4, 2016 17:52
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YF-23 posted:No. It is awfully convenient to ignore treaties you don't like, isn't it?
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Aug 4, 2016 17:53
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It is awfully convenient to deflect the responsibility for the consequences of decades of imperialism and war to the one country systematically stripped of the ability to financially support any sort of public services.
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Aug 4, 2016 17:58
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Maybe the EU should be more federal. The thing about the USA is people seeking asylum don't get dropped in the first state they land in. Perhaps the EU should be able to allocate refugees across all the members without having to rely on voluntary measures by the countries.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:14
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YF-23 posted:It is awfully convenient to deflect the responsibility for the consequences of decades of imperialism and war to the one country systematically stripped of the ability to financially support any sort of public services. It's really not the fault of the EU that the Greek people continually elect corrupt and incompetent politicians. With the right to vote comes a certain degree of responsibility for the actions of the people you voted for.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:16
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YF-23 posted:It is awfully convenient to deflect the responsibility for the consequences of decades of imperialism and war to the one country systematically stripped of the ability to financially support any sort of public services. Syria had been at war for several years before anything happened, just like Greece's corrupt elites have been financially bleeding the state before anything happened. You know this, we know this, the thread has been going in a circle for a year now without any changes. quote:Maybe the EU should be more federal. The thing about the USA is people seeking asylum don't get dropped in the first state they land in.  another golden oldie.I think we should close the thread until something exciting happens. Like Junckers getting a heart attack.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:18
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Nitrousoxide posted:Maybe the EU should be more federal. The thing about the USA is people seeking asylum don't get dropped in the first state they land in. It's sortof been tried with that 120 000 migrant resettlement plan, but there's too much NIMBY opposition to it to do it on a larger scale. So what I'm saying is that yeah EU should be more federal.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:19
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YF-23 posted:It is awfully convenient to deflect the responsibility for the consequences of decades of imperialism and war to the one country systematically stripped of the ability to financially support any sort of public services. Well, if you would like to play the blame game Greece has itself to blame for most systemic problems and half a century of economic mismanagement. It is not like the majority of European nations has been meaningful instigators or participants in these imperialistic endeavors and that much blame should be laid at the feet of those nations. I would however agree that Greece would be much less of a problem if the EU would not have such a terribly dumb agreement as the Dublin one in regards to border controls. The problems would also have been negated by long term planning and less willfull ignorance of mounting problems, but alas this is not how most parties win elections...
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Aug 4, 2016 18:32
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Zudgemud posted:Well, if you would like to play the blame game Greece has itself to blame for most systemic problems and half a century of economic mismanagement. It is not like the majority of European nations has been meaningful instigators or participants in these imperialistic endeavors and that much blame should be laid at the feet of those nations. Also if the EU hadn't been just happy to deal with the aforementioned corrupt politicians, and trashed the country when politicians that were slightly less EU-friendly were elected. Also I'm sure you guys can bring up the electoral programs where PASOK and all the others promised to wreck the economy and lie to get in the euro. I think it's delusional to think that the fact that there were other parties on the ballot means it's the Greek people's responsability for the corruption. Also, the economic mismanagement would have been much less of a problem with a stupidly designed currency that lacked some of the elements a currency must have like automatic transfers. If only those who pointed out these stupidities hadn't been excluded from preparatory meetings. And let's not forget, poor EU, if only they had had any economic experts to raise a flag about big american banks helping Greece cook the books. Totally the populace's fault too, they decided it in referendum, didn't they? As for the imperialism, every european nation is complicit in sending arms, letting their territory be used to refuel planes on the way, bombing directly or sending troops. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 18:43
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So population of Greece is has no responsibility for what their politicians do, except the part where they are responsible for invasion of Iraq?
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Aug 4, 2016 19:25
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Dawncloack posted:Also if the EU hadn't been just happy to deal with the aforementioned corrupt politicians, and trashed the country when politicians that were slightly less EU-friendly were elected. Also I'm sure you guys can bring up the electoral programs where PASOK and all the others promised to wreck the economy and lie to get in the euro. I think it's delusional to think that the fact that there were other parties on the ballot means it's the Greek people's responsability for the corruption. Dawncloack posted:
The EU, its members and its population all shares some blame for the current economic mess yes, especially those that were drivers of that dumb idea, glad we agree on the culpability of the populace due to democratic mandate. Dawncloack posted:As for the imperialism, every european nation is complicit in sending arms, letting their territory be used to refuel planes on the way, bombing directly or sending troops.
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Aug 4, 2016 20:27
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Private Speech posted:It's sortof been tried with that 120 000 migrant resettlement plan, but there's too much NIMBY opposition to it to do it on a larger scale. The EU trying to become more federal would probably wreck it in the attempt. So yeah lets do that.
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Aug 4, 2016 20:30
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Reminder, Greece is currently prosecuting Andreas Georgiou, former head of the Greek national statistic office ELSTAT, for damaging national interest. The crime? Allowing Elstat to correctly calculate the 2009 Greek budget deficit at 15%. They accuse him of being a pawn of Eurostat making up numbers. Because you see it isn't the Greeks who are at fault but the drat foreigners and
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Aug 4, 2016 21:09
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@Riso: what does that have to do refugees? or do you just wanna bitch about greece
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Aug 4, 2016 22:18
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:@Riso: Well, it had to do with Greece in the form that it is another nail in the coffin for the argument that the systemic problems that are in large part responsible for the situation Greece is in, is not actually a problem the Greek governments and the Greek population participated in creating during a very long time, so using the defence : YF-23 posted:It is awfully convenient to deflect the responsibility for the consequences of decades of imperialism and war to the one country systematically stripped of the ability to financially support any sort of public services. It would not really be hard to counter the dumb comment by GC without doing that. In regards to Greece in general though; a feature of democracy and the world modern nations work in is that you actually do inherit most of the economic sins of your fathers, the silver lining that one also inherit the good decisions. Which makes it annoying that the Greek population has not yet put actions behind their words and started to curbstomp corruption and instead does silly things like letting their governments stall tough decisions by pointing fingers to others, all the while letting long term consequences of their stalling pile up. Zudgemud fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Aug 5, 2016 |
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Aug 5, 2016 07:15
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If the population is at fault for voting the wrong parties into office, could you name some of the the non-corrupt parties that would have fixed the economy?
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Aug 5, 2016 09:59
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If there are no non-corrupt parties it is you civic duty to start a new party and run for office. Sorry Greeks, you cannot escape responsibility.
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Aug 5, 2016 10:03
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There's a distinct lack of people insane enough to enter politics even outside Greece.
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Aug 5, 2016 10:05
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cebrail posted:If the population is at fault for voting the wrong parties into office, could you name some of the the non-corrupt parties that would have fixed the economy? KKE 
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Aug 5, 2016 10:45
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aphid_licker posted:It really would've made a lot more sense to start vetting people at the refugee camps and flying them in years ago instead of ignoring the problem until it literally knocked on our door and the choices were to either leave people stranded in the Balkans or open up the borders to set off a mortally dangerous social darwinian free-for-all and funnel what little money the refugees had to criminal human traffickers. We basically waited until all there was left to pick were the worst and second-worst options. This is eerily reminiscent of the climate change problem. It's almost tailor-made to be extremely resilient to preventative problem-solving by democratic state actors. Voters hate short-term losses even if they yield long-term gains. However, the refugee crisis reaching a breaking point is small potatoes compared to the shitstorm of climate change, and the best part of it all is that climate change is going to cause even more refugee waves.
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Aug 5, 2016 11:15
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Today this thread taught me that Greece electing corrupt politicians is the root cause of the refugee crisis. If Greeks had just magically found that viable non-corrupt third party back in the '80s or '90s, people just wouldn't flee Syria for Europe. Greece would've built a new wooden wall along the Aegean sea, and the refugees would see that and say, "welp, there's no going past that, I guess Europe is just a no-go". And they'd know there's no point looking for alternatives either, they wouldn't give up just on the Aegean passage, they'd give up on everything and just stay in their bombed-out homes. Or hell, who's to say they'd be bombed? Maybe if Greece just hadn't voted for PASOK or New Democracy, there wouldn't be war in the Middle East today. I cannot loving believe the Greek political system is responsible for ISIS. You loving idiots
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Aug 5, 2016 11:45
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YF-23 posted:Today this thread taught me that Greece electing corrupt politicians is the root cause of the refugee crisis. If Greeks had just magically found that viable non-corrupt third party back in the '80s or '90s, people just wouldn't flee Syria for Europe. Greece would've built a new wooden wall along the Aegean sea, and the refugees would see that and say, "welp, there's no going past that, I guess Europe is just a no-go". And they'd know there's no point looking for alternatives either, they wouldn't give up just on the Aegean passage, they'd give up on everything and just stay in their bombed-out homes. Or hell, who's to say they'd be bombed? Maybe if Greece just hadn't voted for PASOK or New Democracy, there wouldn't be war in the Middle East today. I cannot loving believe the Greek political system is responsible for ISIS. e: Wait, that was Macedonia. Sorry, you're right, it's not your fault. We should all blame the Macedonians for failing to nib this problem in the bud. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Aug 5, 2016 |
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Aug 5, 2016 12:08
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YF-23 posted:Today this thread taught me that Greece electing corrupt politicians is the root cause of the refugee crisis. Nobody is blaming poor Graecia for the crisis, we're blaming Greeks for being unable to uphold their treaty obligations, like registering and processing all the people. Greece just threw up its hands and waved them all through. Now, I know you're going to complain about how the number of people makes it impossible but then I look at Switzerland who manage to process individual asylum requests within two days. quote:If Greeks had just magically found that viable non-corrupt third party back in the '80s or '90s, people just wouldn't flee Syria for Europe. Greece would've built a new wooden wall along the Aegean sea, and the refugees would see that and say, "welp, there's no going past that, I guess Europe is just a no-go". You know, a similar thing does work for Australia very nicely. They catch the smuggling boats and bring them all back. You can do it as humanely as you'd like but they have to go back.
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Aug 5, 2016 12:26
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Riso posted:Nobody is blaming poor Graecia for the crisis, we're blaming Greeks for being unable to uphold their treaty obligations, like registering and processing all the people. Greece just threw up its hands and waved them all through. This is a really stupid argument. Are you seriously comparing Switzerland to Greece? Greece hosed up, yeah. The wider refugee crisis is a failure of the entire EU and the dumb as poo poo Dublin regulation that has never worked. Blaming Greece for that because they happen to be closest to Syria is idiotic. The EU always knew Greece was corrupt and incompetent, so when they let Greece handle the refugee intake it is the EU who are at least as equally at fault as Greece. doverhog fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Aug 5, 2016 |
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Aug 5, 2016 12:30
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Put Switzerland in the sea right on the main refugee passage to Europe and make them cut public services to hell and back, then the comparison between Greece and Switzerland will be fair.
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Aug 5, 2016 12:34
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Riso posted:Now, I know you're going to complain about how the number of people makes it impossible but then I look at Switzerland who manage to process individual asylum requests within two days. Yeah it's pretty easy if you just reject everyone and are also not adjacent to the countries where the refugees come from.
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Aug 5, 2016 12:34
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It's important to keep in mind that Greece was actually able to keep the refugee problem under control to some degree until SYRIZA was elected, who basically abolished the somewhat functioning Greek asylum system in favor of letting refugees just wander around and out of the country.
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Aug 5, 2016 12:49
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doverhog posted:Blaming Greece for that because they happen to be closest to Syria is idiotic. Andrast posted:Yeah it's pretty easy if you just reject everyone and are also not adjacent to the countries where the refugees come from. you people. Greece is neither the closest country to Syria nor is it even adjacent to the regions most people actually come from. We know at best 1/3 are Syrians. Most are from North Africa or something.But lets take Syria as example anyway. One of their regional neighbours is Saudi Barbaria. They have lots of nicely air-conditioned high-tech tents that are used once a year for the hajj with kitchens and bathing facilities. They also have plenty of money to support their Arab brothers but instead they decided to use their money to build mosques for their radical wahabi imams in Europe instead. quote:It's important to keep in mind that Greece was actually able to keep the refugee problem under control to some degree until SYRIZA was elected, who basically abolished the somewhat functioning Greek asylum system in favor of letting refugees just wander around and out of the country. Indeed, there was no major problem until 2015 even though there's been a Syrian civil war since 2011.
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Aug 5, 2016 12:59
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Riso posted:
And that's the fault of Greece. Yeah. Got it.
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Aug 5, 2016 13:01
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