|
Trent posted:"Handholding is good for grandma" is a poo poo arguement because a simple toggle to turn off "YOU FOUND A BLUE RUPEE" would be piss simple to add Yes, it is possible to include options in games to turn off mechanics people dislike. Short of full-on modding however no game has more than a fraction of these options both because it increases the risk of things that can break or be misunderstood or simply because figuring out a toggle for every single element people dislike is an excess amount of work for a feature used by a small amount of people. It's perfectly viable to go "the game would be improved by this." It's also kind of silly to act like all but an incredibly small fraction of games have even an iota of those options.
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 15:50 |
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I mean without having played it I will make two predictions: I agree with this wholeheartedly, but also people will hate it just because it's a radical departure from the series. I've heard plenty of grousing about the ubiquitous nature of open-world games in the last several years, and Breath of the Wild won't be spared that. As someone who neither adores nor hates that type of game, I would say "If you don't like that style of game, don't buy Breath of the Wild", but some people will buy it anyway and bitch, some people won't buy it and bitch, and others will buy it in order to bitch.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:00
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:GC ... did not have dual analog sticks do you even know what a gamecube is
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:45
|
|
|
Skyward Sword and Wind Waker both had the perfect Zelda aesthetic and I'm glad breasts of the wind is combining them together
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:50
|
|
|
Alec Eiffel posted:Kakariko Village is a Western movie one horse town In SS the entire game is a western movie one horse town. It's practically empty, and it reuses every area six times over.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 07:01
|
|
|
Honestly while replaying Twilight Princess i'm finding it to be pretty excellent. the low parts are definitely annoying but it's got straight up many of the most interesting dungeons in the whole series and the overworld is the most fun to explore for secrets.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 07:34
|
|
|
I will never get all the heart pieces on a playthrough, not even close. I won't do most of the other things (TP has fishing, possibly bug catching? - the point is I haven't done it) either. I will get everything in dungeons though. But for instance I did not explore Hyrule Fields at all as I traveled from Faron Woods to Kakariko Village. In this sense, I prefer the (lack of) overworld in Skyward Sword even though, yes, the overworld is often a (some say The) draw for Zelda games. Also, I like the art style of Twilight Princess and even some of its cinematic interludes (though they should be skippable). It's weird that Kakariko Village is literally experiencing a plotline similar to The Magnificent Seven or something. Alec Eiffel fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 08:02
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The Zelda rule is, of course, that as long as I liked it then all of a Zelda's flaws are perfectly fine and justifiable or not really flaws and just people whining. If I dislike it then it's an unforgivably bad game that ruined Zelda forever. What if you like Wind Waker's huge world that feels like exploring and also think the Swift Sale is a godsend? Emalde posted:this but for groose instead This is the most hosed up thing I've read today.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 12:26
|
|
|
Skyloft and its NPC cast, to say nothing about Groose, are just so much more interesting than anything (anything) in TP that I will always pick SS. I can get better at motion controls, I can hack Fi's annoying quips to be less frequent and make the bird permanently faster, but there is nothing I can do to make TP's world at all more fun to explore and interact with.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 13:15
|
|
|
JustJeff88 posted:I agree with this wholeheartedly, but also people will hate it just because it's a radical departure from the series. I've heard plenty of grousing about the ubiquitous nature of open-world games in the last several years, and Breath of the Wild won't be spared that. As someone who neither adores nor hates that type of game, I would say "If you don't like that style of game, don't buy Breath of the Wild", but some people will buy it anyway and bitch, some people won't buy it and bitch, and others will buy it in order to bitch. What if there's an aspect of the game that you enjoy and know is there, in my case dungeons, that you want to do, but this part is obscured by bullshit open world mechanics? It's like when I played the Witcher 2 where the gameplay is awfully thought out (there's poo poo like the final boss being entirely immune to a certain progression path and no respecs in the game as well as every mook fight being trivialised by a single spell) but the plot itself and the characters are interesting. In that game I spent most of my time thinking to myself "it's a pity I have to play the game to get to the plot."
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 13:49
|
|
|
Yorkshire Tea posted:What if there's an aspect of the game that you enjoy and know is there, in my case dungeons, that you want to do, but this part is obscured by bullshit open world mechanics? I guess that you have to either take the good with the bad when you buy the game, or not buy the game because it's not worth it. I'm mostly just outlining the futility of trying to please everyone. I'm not very keen on highly disposable weapons myself and am ambivalent about the open-world aspect, but I can't deny that the formula needed a bit of shaking up. At the same time, I wish that they would just stop loving around and make a modernised updated of the Oracle games and Link's Awakening. 2Ds Zelda have always been my favourite.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 14:01
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:It's perfectly viable to go "the game would be improved by this." It's also kind of silly to act like all but an incredibly small fraction of games have even an iota of those options. Only an incredibly small fraction of games have the sort of intrusive handholding that SS had. It's obvious that no game is perfect, and I don't think SS is a bad game, but the major "permanent tutorial" annoyances are real, and are glaringly so.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 15:56
|
|
|
It really does seem they learned from it though, not just based on BotW, but also based on LbW and other more recent Nintendo adventure games.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 16:00
|
|
|
One of my favorite little things control-wise in SS was how using the bow felt. You hold up the wiimote and nunchuk, hold C to aim and then pull back and fire and for some reason that always felt super awesome to me, especially since it was so easy to aim with the wiimote compared to aiming with the control stick in OoT and MM. Nate RFB posted:Skyloft and its NPC cast, to say nothing about Groose, are just so much more interesting than anything (anything) in TP that I will always pick SS. I can get better at motion controls, I can hack Fi's annoying quips to be less frequent and make the bird permanently faster, but there is nothing I can do to make TP's world at all more fun to explore and interact with. While I also definitely prefer SS to TP, there is an Ocarina code that makes the Spinner hilariously fast, so there's that? 
Xad fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 16:25
|
|
|
Xad posted:One of my favorite little things control-wise in SS was how using the bow felt. Sniping bigger enemies with the level 3 bow feels awesome every time. The bow controls are perfect and I'm going to miss them in BotW.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 16:44
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:I can hack Uh.... This is not a valid justification for liking the game. If you hack it, it's not the same game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:13
|
|
|
the implication is that with minor tweaks you can make SS into a good game, but no minor tweaks would make TP a good game. i disagree, i think they both have The Good Part and also lovely Unfixable Zelda Moment that makes me sigh but that's just my opinion.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
Trent posted:Only an incredibly small fraction of games have the sort of intrusive handholding that SS had. Are you kidding? There are like 5 non-indie games in the past few years I can think of that don't force slow-rear end hand-holding tutorials that utterly ruin the pacing of the opening of a game and they're almost all made by From Software and the other is DOOM. SS is bad but so many games have incredibly tedious lengthy tutorials. I don't particularly need or enjoy them and they hurt the hell out of replay value but the ability to skip or disable them is rare as hell. At worst they continue to exist even in a NG+! ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:22
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:Uh....
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
I've always been bitterly disappointed about the controls in PH and haven't really played the game because of that. ST, which does the same, is the only Zelda game apart from perhaps the CDi ones that I don't have a physical copy of. I know that the Wii U virtual console release, sadly, has the same scheme, but I've always been a little tempted to buy it since it sounds like the touch controls on the pad would be somewhat less onerous. To this day, I cannot for the life of me fathom who thought having those controls with no option to use traditional button controls was a good idea.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
They work fine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
I think some people here are also underestimating how hard it is to add options to a game. I'm not going to claim to be a AAA game designer, but I remember reading an old article interviewing the team at Bungie about Halo 2 or 3, and they talked about how hard button mapping actually is. The reason why games will have a handful of "pre-set styles" of control as opposed to full button mapping is that many elements of the game are based on button press triggers, and if you add an extra processing step of "ok this button was pressed, ok now what is it mapped to, ok now what does that do" can mess with a game's performance if it isn't programmed in with the design of the game engine. This concept affects other things too; when you use a hack that just "disables" Fi all you're really doing is turning off the notifications, that process still runs in the background because those scenes/dialogue boxes can do things like trigger cutscenes or advance plot flags. Many of the early versions of the "remove Fi" codes resulted in Fi being gone, but you also not being able to advance to new areas because her dialogue is what enables those portals. This is one of the major reasons why every game doesn't just have a million "turn (x) on/off" options, they need to be planned in from the beginning or they are very annoying to change later. This is also why PC tends to have full button mapping and console doesn't. A PC game has to take hardware inputs at the OS level anyway to deal with a variety of control hardware, so the expectation of button mapping is in place from the beginning of development anyway. Additionally, as has been said, sometimes those "annoying things" are there intentionally because the game needs to cater to audiences other than hardcore fans. It's very possible that an early QA build of the game didn't have those handholding elements and testers found it difficult to figure out where to go, so they were added in.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
My ~super controversial opinion~ is that I like ST. This is probably in no small part due to the fact that it was my second zelda, PH being the first, but from what I remember, the touch controls worked well enough, the art was nice, and the game had some incredibly fun dungeon designs. Hopefully this post convinces people that there is no actual objective Worst Zelda, because plenty of people will love the things you think are flaws. The secret is that all Zeldas are pretty good games, or at least better than a good 80% of the dreck out there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:48
|
|
|
SS controls were good because I could do it just fine, and I play like...maybe 3 games a year, and most of them are turn-based RPGs. If a casual motherfucker like me can get the hang of the controls within minutes, there's no excuse for people who play games regularly. The game wouldn't be the same with standard controls, so that's why it wasn't an option. The ridiculous amount of hand-holding is definitely a sin, but it's one that the Zelda team seems to be aware of and hopefully won't repeat with BotW.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
I never had any problems with the controls in Phantom Hourglass. I didn't like Spirit Tracks, but that was because the train made overworld traversal unbelievably tedious.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
All I know is OG Zelda 1 will always be my favorite Zelda because I used to watch my grandfather play it for hours showing me all the secrets until my grandmother hid the controllers from him. In college I used to speedrun the game in one sitting because the battery was long dead so I'd just marathon it every so often. For his 80th birthday a few years ago we got him a Wii and preloaded Zelda on it and he still remembered everything 
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 19:00
|
|
|
Twilight Princess was the better game, but only if you played the GameCube version, Christ people. Left-handed Link are always the best Link.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
LanceKing2200 posted:
"You found a rupee! It's a loving rupee! Money can be exchanged for goods and services!" "It's a bug, let me tell you all about it even though you have 73 in your inventory." I'm not complaining about your companion talking all the time or reminding you what to do (with the exception of the one egregiously terrible puzzle spoiler in the ship - that was hogshit) - I'm having a hard time even contemplating a second playthrough when I know I'm going to be reminded about rupees, bugs, and other nonsense every time I pick one up. That this literally stops the game, puts your equipment away, and interrupts the action, even in the middle of combat, and with no way to turn it off, is just bad. That being said, I loving love Zelda games, and it's admittedly not going to make me not buy the next one (hundred), but it's still bad design.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 20:32
|
|
|
Can we just be real that the Oracle games are the best ones? You can ride a flying bear.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 22:40
|
|
|
Reinanigans posted:SS controls were good because I could do it just fine, and I play like...maybe 3 games a year, and most of them are turn-based RPGs. If a casual motherfucker like me can get the hang of the controls within minutes, there's no excuse for people who play games regularly. It's not that we can't use the controls. It's the they are needless and less fun. See, in SS, you have an analog stick to move around most of the time. But when you fly or swim, all of a sudden you have to use the motion control. That's stupid BS and makes the game less fun. In 99% of games, you push a button to swing the sword. In SS you have to swing the control around and it's not very precise. This makes the game less fun. In the DS games, you could do 100% of the same things with the D pad and buttons. But they forced in stupid touch pad controls. They are usable, but it makes the game less fun. In a different light: if you have to think about the controls, they are bad. Controls should be easy and intuitive.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 22:44
|
|
|
PH and ST are hugely flawed games in a lot of ways, but the stylus control scheme let them do some really cool things with the puzzle design.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 22:53
|
|
|
Mr Phillby posted:PH and ST are hugely flawed games in a lot of ways, but the stylus control scheme let them do some really cool things with the puzzle design. Yeah, like making a stupid flute puzzle mechanic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 22:58
|
|
|
PH and ST are pretty good if you play the patched versions that allow traditional controls.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 23:16
|
|
|
SeANMcBAY posted:PH and ST are pretty good if you play the hacked versions that allow traditional controls. Please tell us more.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 23:17
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:Please tell us more. http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2248/ http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2235/ Obviously you'll need to play via flash cart or an emulator for these to work. It's not perfect and some obvious things you still need stylus controls for but it's a much more comfortable way to play the games, especially for weirdos like me that finds handwriting awkward as well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
SeANMcBAY posted:http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2248/  These are like two years old I wish I had found them sooner 
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2016 00:14
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:Yeah, like making a stupid flute puzzle mechanic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2016 00:22
|
|
|
Suspicious Dish posted:i disagree, i think they both have The Good Part and also lovely Unfixable Zelda Moment that makes me sigh but that's just my opinion. I'm looking forward to seeing how both of these things are implemented in BOTW.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2016 01:21
|
|
|
Watch BOTW just be a huge sandbox with a minimal story.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 15:50 |
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:Watch BOTW just be a huge sandbox with a minimal story. good???
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2016 02:26
|
|