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Stinky_Pete posted:So you're saying by the time my sign-on stock has finished vesting (4 years), I'll be offered additional RSUs across my career there? Yes, I've got a refresh every year since I started. Ymmv but stocks make up a significant amount of my compensation (about a third this year).
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Aug 22, 2016 21:22
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Stinky_Pete posted:So you're saying by the time my sign-on stock has finished vesting (4 years), I'll be offered additional RSUs across my career there?
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Aug 22, 2016 22:05
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So if I'm at a large established company with a lot of stock stuff (finance/insurance), is it in my interest to stick around as long as possible?
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Aug 22, 2016 22:17
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JawnV6 posted:I don't mean to trash your plan or anything, but that is the most likely case. Leaving a big company after a few years means leaving future-money RSU's on the table. For small things, you can negotiate it as part of your sign-on at the next place (e.g. tell the new recruiter "They paid for my schooling, I owe $12k if I leave within a year" and watch your bonus bump up $12k) but after 5 years at a big place you're probably going to lose out on several tens of thousands of dollars of stock when you leave. I wouldn't say that you're losing anything in most situations. Unvested stock is compensation for the year it vests in so you can just compare total comp and make your decision based on that and any other factors. The only time I'd say your losing anything is if there is a vesting cliff and you leave before it as you've then worked for some amount of time and not received all your compensation for it. My understanding is that generally refreshes do not have a cliff so the cliff normally only applies if you leave within a certain period of when you were hired. If you work for a large public company, it is generally very easy to calculate total compensation and then compare that. Where it gets more difficult is if the company is private and/or issuing options as there may be restrictions or requirements on what happens when you leave and there is also the issue of dilution if the company is going through series funding. asur fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 22:18
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Pollyanna posted:So if I'm at a large established company with a lot of stock stuff (finance/insurance), is it in my interest to stick around as long as possible? Not specifically. It's a type of handcuffs. I make an obscene amount from my bonus and RSUs each quarter. However, I still evaluate other options on an ongoing basis. If you get even 15% of your salary as an RSU grant staying for a full 4 year cliff means that you'd need to increase your salary by 60% to not lose money in that first year. That's a really big bridge to cross and that's why it exists.
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Aug 22, 2016 22:27
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Hughlander posted:Not specifically. It's a type of handcuffs. I make an obscene amount from my bonus and RSUs each quarter. However, I still evaluate other options on an ongoing basis. If you get even 15% of your salary as an RSU grant staying for a full 4 year cliff means that you'd need to increase your salary by 60% to not lose money in that first year. That's a really big bridge to cross and that's why it exists. This makes no sense. You'd need to increase your salary by 60% over four years or just 15% in your example. You don't need to increase it by 60% to have the same effective total compensation. RSUs are not handcuffs unless there is a cliff as they don't effectively defer compensation. I do want to clarify that most if not all initial grants will have a cliff which do act as golden handcuffs to keep you at that company for the duration of the cliff. I think the typical grant is a one year cliff and four year duration though I believe Amazons is different.
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Aug 22, 2016 23:14
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Pollyanna posted:So if I'm at a large established company with a lot of stock stuff (finance/insurance), is it in my interest to stick around as long as possible? asur posted:I wouldn't say that you're losing anything in most situations. Unvested stock is compensation for the year it vests in so you can just compare total comp and make your decision based on that and any other factors. asur posted:If you work for a large public company, it is generally very easy to calculate total compensation and then compare that. Where it gets more difficult is if the company is private and/or issuing options as there may be restrictions or requirements on what happens when you leave and there is also the issue of dilution if the company is going through series funding.
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Aug 22, 2016 23:14
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asur posted:This makes no sense. You'd need to increase your salary by 60% over four years or just 15% in your example. You don't need to increase it by 60% to have the same effective total compensation. RSUs are not handcuffs unless there is a cliff as they don't effectively defer compensation. Year 1 you get a 4 year grant where each quarter is 3.75% of your salary with a 1 year cliff. Year two you get the same grant and 18.75 lump sum and 3 vests of 3.75% Year 3 you get a lump sum of 22.5% and 3 vests of 7.5% Continue to year 4 when the first grant will expire at the end of the year. As long as you are getting new grants each year your income from grants continues to rise for the length of the grants then stablizes. After the full length its substantial. Edit: fixed a case I used grant when I meant a quarterly vest.
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Aug 23, 2016 00:26
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I have no idea how the other "big, good" tech companies do it (I'm thinking mainly Facebook here) Good Will Hrunting posted:I've given some though to tossing my res over to Facebook but I don't really want to work on Enterprise team which fits my skill set best as far as my location goes.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:41
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Unless you come in explicitly pre-allocated, you can generally choose what team to join at fb, if they have open headcount and you aren't completely unqualified. Try it. I'm certainly open to the idea. Facebook was my #1 company going into the search but I got kinda discouraged when I saw that literally all of the positions I was interested in here in NYC weren't at all related to the experience I have and I don't think I want to relocate right now.
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Aug 23, 2016 03:13
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As a programmer not working at the big guys: Why aren't more people outraged at the wages of average companies? Those bonuses and stock options are insane for regular jobs. Googlers are reliably making 2x-3x our total comps while reaping untold networking & career benefits. I'm sure they're great at Compsci 101 exam questions and all but it's infuriating to know that the "market" values their work leaps and bounds above mine. Is there any rational response other than devoting huge amounts of my free time to studying Cracking the Coding Interview and breaking into the anointed-programmer club?
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Aug 23, 2016 05:13
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Analytic Engine posted:As a programmer not working at the big guys: You could try organizing some labor.
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Aug 23, 2016 05:32
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Analytic Engine posted:As a programmer not working at the big guys:  . Spending your free time studying interview books probably wouldn't be a good route to try and take.
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Aug 23, 2016 05:42
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Analytic Engine posted:Googlers are reliably making 2x-3x our total comps while reaping untold networking & career benefits.
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Aug 23, 2016 05:43
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Analytic Engine posted:Is there any rational response other than devoting huge amounts of my free time to studying Cracking the Coding Interview and breaking into the anointed-programmer club?
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Aug 23, 2016 05:56
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Analytic Engine posted:Why aren't more people outraged at the wages of average companies? What's there to be outraged about? You're a crazy person, basically.
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Aug 23, 2016 06:01
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Analytic Engine posted:As a programmer not working at the big guys: work for a company that values you appropriately. google and facebook are at the peak of employee comp but they are not alone there. plenty of people are making $160k-300k total comp at companies you have never heard of
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Aug 23, 2016 06:09
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Cicero posted:Yeah it's great! I mean, most of those jobs are in expensive places too, and that's kind of a bummer. But overall A++++ would work for Google again. Yeah it sure is fun paying rent in NYC
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Aug 23, 2016 06:50
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Analytic Engine posted:Why aren't more people outraged at the wages of average companies? Because unlike a lot of companies, Facebook and Google and Apple and Amazon and Microsoft are actual businesses, and not glorified passion projects or incredibly speculative ventures, and their existences are not hilariously dependent in the short-term on market trends.
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Aug 23, 2016 07:42
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the talent deficit posted:work for a company that values you appropriately. google and facebook are at the peak of employee comp but they are not alone there. plenty of people are making $160k-300k total comp at companies you have never heard of Yeah, my last job at financial company you've never heard of, my total comp hit $300k a few years. Most of that was from getting a shitload of stock grants when it was cheap and then having it go up 2-3x though. Also places like NYC and SF are expensive as gently caress, so paired with demand for talented tech workers being way higher than supply, you can negotiate a lot more.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:34
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Paolomania posted:I came out of undergrad at a decent state school. Without having a pedigree/networking of a top tech or ivy it was 15 years of lame jobs, a MS, and opportunistic jumps with an eye towards resume building before I got in as a run-of-the-mill SWE at Big G. It most definitely sucks to see those with better fortune jumping right into such a role - or better - at the start of their careers; however you can't let that stop you. Nicely done, sounds like you had a smart mindset and worked hard enough that they couldn't deny your ouptut.
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Aug 23, 2016 13:28
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Yeah don't be outrage at other people making more money than you, would you wish they make less ? That wouldn't be a zen set of mind and can only make you unhappy. I'm in the same boat as you, I'm far from making 150k a year and I know I'm at least as good as some of the people here working at the big tech co but that's what the market is where I live. I could get more but I'd need to move to where they pay that much... Anyway I'm happy for you guys making bank.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:27
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I messed up the second part of a problem today that was probably like a 2.5 to 3 on a scale of 1 to 5 for hardness and all I can really do is laugh at myself. There really is no substitute for actually doing these interviews, regardless of how much practice you do.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:46
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I'm more outraged that the dude that's got a lukewarm IQ and just craps out mediocre code makes something shy of six figures doing a 9-to-5. The worst secretaries I've seen in government hardly have any different pay than some of the best people I've ever seen in HR public or private (40% pay gap between the best and the worst is an insult to people that work really hard and have talent IMO). When it comes to per-employee productivity, I could reasonably argue that many Fortune 500 companies destroy the economic potential of many high-earners while boosting those that just aren't even that great - the same accusations most capitalists make against unions. I'm sure that Gayle Lackman lady is making more off of books than her actual software job by now given how absurd our industry is for software interviews and it's probably the closest thing to "here's how to get a job at a non-sucky tech company if you don't want to just keep pressing your luck or wasting your time in crappy non-tech companies for a decade." But them's the breaks at this point, sadly. You can hate the game all you want but you have to play ball to ever win.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:36
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As long as they learn eventually, I'll take a crappy developer that I can mentor and sit with for an hour to do a review of their code and teach them things over a glorified babysitter like our head of HR who makes over $200k or "account managers" that make $120 for sending loving polite emails. Even our lowest engineers make commits that further our business exponentially and I know this because I started two and a half years ago as one of them. Now I passed that off to the juniors, I help them with it, and I work on something more volatile and get help from my seniors.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:42
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necrobobsledder posted:DAE think capitalism is unfair If you think you should make more than a mediocre developer with a lukewarm IQ, what's keeping you?
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Aug 23, 2016 17:21
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I think he's complaining that mediocre programmers are paid as much as they are? Not really about himself versus them.
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Aug 23, 2016 17:29
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The problem is the assumption that programming ability is the only skill that makes someone a good developer, especially in a large company. The fact is an average programmer thats a good communicator and teammate is much more valuable than a 10x programming savant thats impossible to talk to or work with to the majority of employers. Failing to understand the importance of soft skills is what keeps most developers from succeeding in their careers as well as they could. Good Will Hrunting posted:a glorified babysitter like our head of HR who makes over $200k or "account managers" that make $120 for sending loving polite emails This for instance demonstrates a pretty immature understanding of how a company functions as a whole. Seriously, go get lunch with one of those people sometime and ask them about their job and what they do all day. You'll likely find it interesting, have a better understanding for the value those people provide, and maybe learn a bit that will make you more effective in your job.
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Aug 23, 2016 17:44
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A good programming interview question is one that almost nobody can solve optimally in the time allowed without communicating with the person who knows about it
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Aug 23, 2016 17:59
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pr0zac posted:This for instance demonstrates a pretty immature understanding of how a company functions as a whole. Seriously, go get lunch with one of those people sometime and ask them about their job and what they do all day. You'll likely find it interesting, have a better understanding for the value those people provide, and maybe learn a bit that will make you more effective in your job. 1. Somebody complaining that they went into the bathroom and discovered somebody using their stall. The gall! 2. Having to explain to a manager that his teammates were leaving because he was constantly yelling at them. That manager then yelled at her about that being impossible. 3. Making sure we didn't run over each other in the parking lot, which was little surprise to anybody.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:21
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And tangentially related for those who don't do anything on LinkedIn anymore, look at dis Marissa Mayer resume: Forgetting the completely fluffy BS that anyone not a celebrity can put down and still be taken seriously, the layout is interesting. Makes me wonder if I should go back to the 2-column resume layout I used for papers in LaTeX because the whitespace use seems more interesting than the usual boring resume. The Laplace Demon posted:If you think you should make more than a mediocre developer with a lukewarm IQ, what's keeping you? pr0zac posted:This for instance demonstrates a pretty immature understanding of how a company functions as a whole. Seriously, go get lunch with one of those people sometime and ask them about their job and what they do all day. You'll likely find it interesting, have a better understanding for the value those people provide, and maybe learn a bit that will make you more effective in your job.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:36
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necrobobsledder posted:It's easier to evaluate a programmer in skills than it is to determine whether someone would be a good HR manager for a small company. Yet a majority of places are still poo poo at it and still poo poo at evaluating someone's worth to a company even after they're hired and therefore you get bad hires and lowball offers and awful raises and payscales that aren't at all reflective of what someone brings.. which was kinda the point I was trying to make with some places realizing how invaluable it is to have good people paid well. pr0zac posted:Seriously, go get lunch with one of those people sometime and ask them about their job and what they do all day. I did, many times as I actually dated one of those people for like 2 years. 0/10 would not recommended dating a coworker.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:00
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I've only worked at tiny companies / startups and I would kill to have a decent manager / HR person / admin professional / etc. etc. etc. Companies created by people with the "Management / soft skills / anything but programming is useless!" attitude who wonder why they have high turnover and bad work relationships. I would never want a role like that for myself, but they're insanely valuable in skilled hands.
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Aug 23, 2016 22:10
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necrobobsledder posted:And tangentially related for those who don't do anything on LinkedIn anymore, look at dis Marissa Mayer resume: I would never want to work with you based on your writing. I bet you're insufferable.
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Aug 23, 2016 22:21
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You sound like you subscribe to the Great Man theory of innovation. I see where you're coming from, but also think you're dead wrong. Blinkz0rz posted:I would never want to work with you based on your writing. I bet you're insufferable.
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Aug 23, 2016 22:38
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:You sound like you subscribe to the Great Man theory of innovation. I see where you're coming from, but also think you're dead wrong. More like, the competent man theory of innovation.
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Aug 24, 2016 00:09
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:You sound like you subscribe to the Great Man theory of innovation. I see where you're coming from, but also think you're dead wrong.
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Aug 24, 2016 00:47
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God forbid people take a thread where career advice is asked for in earnest seriously.
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Aug 24, 2016 06:03
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necrobobsledder posted:Consistent with other attributions to me based upon typically reckless online trolling tendencies, this is largely incorrect. However, I will apologize for trolling with useless walls of text when some people take threads like this seriously.  It was just a troll.
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Aug 24, 2016 06:46
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necrobobsledder posted:Consistent with other attributions to me based upon typically reckless online trolling tendencies, this is largely incorrect. However, I will apologize for trolling with useless walls of text when some people take threads like this seriously. Paolomania posted:God forbid people take a thread where career advice is asked for in earnest seriously.
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Aug 24, 2016 08:55
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