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edit: wrong thread
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Sep 21, 2016 19:00
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ToxicSlurpee posted:They're not ultra super desperate but do still have a shortage unless you're like Google. Like was said Google has insane hiring practices but that's because their pay and bennies are absurd; they offer enough that they can snag the best. People are falling over themselves to work there. The real problem is that the tech bubble is distorting demand, all those subpar programmers will learn how it was to be a computer scientist in 2002 really loving quickly if the VC funding drops off.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:They're not ultra super desperate but do still have a shortage unless you're like Google. Like was said Google has insane hiring practices but that's because their pay and bennies are absurd; they offer enough that they can snag the best. People are falling over themselves to work there. Their stupid hiring practices don't filter for the best at doing the job, they filter for the best at doing stupid hiring practices. That's why dumb riddles like "how many pennies could fit in this room" have largely fallen out of fashion with companies like Google, although they're still trickling down to smaller companies that are behind on the trends. Google's still a fan of the "devote several unpaid days to a gauntlet of interviews with us" thing though, which should be next on the chopping block. Performatively arduous interview practices are another subtle way industries create barriers to entry for women and minorities, by the way. Young white guys are more likely to be unburdened by money or family obligations and can give away their time for free when a company wants them to spend eight hours wearing goofy hats and playing playground games or whatever.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:13
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google stopped giving the stupid brain teaser questions in interviews years ago and the articles that resulted from it were p great here's one "We found that brainteasers are a complete waste of time," Laszlo Bock, Google's Senior VP of People Operations, tells The New York Times. "How many golf balls can you fit into an airplane? How many gas stations in Manhattan? A complete waste of time. They don’t predict anything. They serve primarily to make the interviewer feel smart."
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Sep 21, 2016 19:20
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Their stupid hiring practices don't filter for the best at doing the job, they filter for the best at doing stupid hiring practices. That's why dumb riddles like "how many pennies could fit in this room" have largely fallen out of fashion with companies like Google, although they're still trickling down to smaller companies that are behind on the trends. Google's still a fan of the "devote several unpaid days to a gauntlet of interviews with us" thing though, which should be next on the chopping block. Amusingly Google will actually send you study materials and has (bi?)weekly webinars to teach how to succeed at those interviews.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:36
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Idk I did three free days of Python online classes, was recruited by and passed the fubar challenge, and am interviewing with the Goog. It's true that I have a background in math and program in R, so probably I'm the kind of candidate they are trying to recruit for, but I don't think I'm that smart and I didn't think the challenges were that hard.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:53
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When's your onsite? The screens are just that, screens, the 6 hour long on site marathon is the real challenge.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:59
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WrenP-Complete posted:Idk I did three free days of Python online classes, was recruited by and passed the fubar challenge, and am interviewing with the Goog. It's true that I have a background in math and program in R, so probably I'm the kind of candidate they are trying to recruit for, but I don't think I'm that smart and I didn't think the challenges were that hard. They don't do the stupid brain-teasers anymore and haven't for years. When I say "arduous" I'm talking about the time commitment. Lots of good, smart, useful people aren't in a position to spend three unpaid days taking Python classes just for a job interview.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:06
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:They don't do the stupid brain-teasers anymore and haven't for years. Yeah it sounds like there's a difference between brain teasers and the programming challenge. I didn't mean to brag or make this about me or whatever. It just seems weird to me to be discussing tech companies and recruitment like some of us don't work for or interview with these companies.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:10
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:They don't do the stupid brain-teasers anymore and haven't for years. When I say "arduous" I'm talking about the time commitment. Lots of good, smart, useful people aren't in a position to spend three unpaid days taking Python classes just for a job interview. This is absolutely true and I have a lot of privilege in the market. The weirdness to me was to have this conversation as if there's no one here who has done this. It just sounded distancing in a way that rang false. NBD.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:13
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WrenP-Complete posted:This is absolutely true and I have a lot of privilege in the market. The weirdness to me was to have this conversation as if there's no one here who has done this. It just sounded distancing in a way that rang false. NBD. I get that, having felt that way myself in lots of D&D discussions about women and minorities. I think there are actually quite a lot of SV workers here, although they're mostly older than you probably. Although I don't think Google hires double-posters, so RIP
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Sep 21, 2016 20:33
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I get that, having felt that way myself in lots of D&D discussions about women and minorities. I think there are actually quite a lot of SV workers here, although they're mostly older than you probably. I'm pretty happy with where I'm at, so whatever works.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:37
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Google's still a fan of the "devote several unpaid days to a gauntlet of interviews with us" thing though, which should be next on the chopping block. Pretty sure their process is just screen + onsite, same with basically everyone else at this point (except the companies that are doing take-home exercises, which are significantly more bullshit in my opinion). My girlfriend just interviewed for a bunch of accounting jobs and each individual application required a bunch of exploratory conversations which culminated in an eventual onsite (and in some cases followups there as well). It's probably less 'performatively arduous' than getting asked a lot of coding/math questions at a whiteboard, but in terms of actual time that you'd have to take off from a job it's significantly less. I think a lot of other white collar occupations are in the same boat ('easier' interviews, but longer time taken for interview process). Interviewing at most decent tech companies takes precisely 1 day of PTO, which is literally the minimum that you would expect for a company to do their due diligence on you as a candidate. If you want to argue that the technical interviews allow for a fair amount of individual bias to creep in towards underrepresented groups then that's one thing, but I don't think that that's really the argument you're trying to make here (and asking questions that have a pretty clear 'right' answer is a countermeasure against those biases, though they obviously still exist).
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Sep 21, 2016 20:40
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blah_blah posted:Interviewing at most decent tech companies takes precisely 1 day of PTO, which is literally the minimum that you would expect for a company to do their due diligence on you as a candidate. No, a full-day interview is insane and the fact that it's been so successfully normalized to you depresses me.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:55
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blah_blah posted:(and asking questions that have a pretty clear 'right' answer is a countermeasure against those biases, though they obviously still exist). But nobody gets the "correct" answers up on whiteboards, and if they do its because you've memorized that question and they'll go on a to a different one.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:56
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:No, a full-day interview is insane and the fact that it's been so successfully normalized to you depresses me. Full-day means ~3 hours in this context (including lunch), not 8. But whether it's 2 hours or 12 you probably will need to take a day off anyways. hobbesmaster posted:But nobody gets the "correct" answers up on whiteboards, and if they do its because you've memorized that question and they'll go on a to a different one. This is super wrong.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:59
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Their stupid hiring practices don't filter for the best at doing the job, they filter for the best at doing stupid hiring practices. That's why dumb riddles like "how many pennies could fit in this room" have largely fallen out of fashion with companies like Google, although they're still trickling down to smaller companies that are behind on the trends. Google's still a fan of the "devote several unpaid days to a gauntlet of interviews with us" thing though, which should be next on the chopping block.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:03
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:No, a full-day interview is insane and the fact that it's been so successfully normalized to you depresses me. Really? 5 hours to evaluate years of schooling and figure out if someone can do a multifaceted job is "insane"? What do you propose as an alternative? E: hobbesmaster posted:But nobody gets the "correct" answers up on whiteboards, and if they do its because you've memorized that question and they'll go on a to a different one. I interview for Google and people I interview get right answers without previous exposure to my questions about one time in three. SolTerrasa fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 21:03
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Gail Wynand posted:Is "implement a red black tree on this whiteboard" or "reverse a linked list," to take two well known Google style interview questions, really all that different from a brain teaser though? With the exception that you are at least doing some form of coding. 99% of devs never exercise those skills in their day to day work.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:05
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blah_blah posted:Full-day means ~3 hours in this context (including lunch), not 8. But whether it's 2 hours or 12 you probably will need to take a day off anyways. A 2 hour commitment vs. a 12 hour one are very different things to a person who has more to do when they get home than play video games, not to mention an hourly worker. Lots of people have to schedule interviews so they can take as little time off as possible, and companies have figured out an easy and blameless way to keep those people from darkening their doors is to have inflexible and time-consuming interviews. I literally consult on removing invisible-to-white-dudes barriers to hiring in my field. This is a real thing. It's not all easy for everyone just because it's easy for you SolTerrasa posted:Really? 5 hours to evaluate years of schooling and figure out if someone can do a multifaceted job is "insane"? What do you propose as an alternative? First, I remove anyone who resorts to defensive tactics like scare quotes in a discussion about bias from any access to the hiring process. Then I require hiring managers to define their needs for a role in a limited and reasonable fashion. Nobody gets to pretend they need a unicorn. I develop wide-reaching, relationship-focused recruiting networks that remove artificial obstacles like "this is the way Things Are Done" to open up opportunities to people who haven't had the same access as middle class white dudes. I work in entertainment, and I think the best example of this is Samantha Bee's search for writers on her new show. She didn't require people to have filtered through the traditional gatekeepers like having an agent, and the call for writing samples clearly laid out exactly how to format the scripts, so no one was run aground on arbitrary, easily trainable technicalities that have nothing to do with the quality of one's work. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 21:07
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:A 2 hour commitment vs. a 12 hour one are very different things to a person who has more to do when they get home than play video games, not to mention an hourly worker. Lots of people have to schedule interviews so they can take as little time off as possible, and companies have figured out an easy and blameless way to keep those people from darkening their doors is to have inflexible and time-consuming interviews. Are you suggesting we pay people for interview days? I bet that could get traction.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:10
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SolTerrasa posted:I interview for Google and people I interview get right answers without previous exposure to my questions about one time in three. Scoring an "answer" correct or incorrect is problematic when you are scoring the person's explanation as well. (nevermind that for most interesting questions the correct algorithm is an incorrect answer)
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Sep 21, 2016 21:10
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SolTerrasa posted:Are you suggesting we pay people for interview days? I bet that could get traction.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:18
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SolTerrasa posted:Are you suggesting we pay people for interview days? I bet that could get traction. Huge fan of that, but it's not in my personal toolkit yet. My focus has been on designing interviews that are about time quality, not time quantity. A big factor is an organization's discomfort with delegating authority. Nobody needs to parade past thirty different people in a job interview. Companies that can learn not to micromanage and just trust a specific person or small team to make good decisions is a more functional company across the board. twodot posted:Are tech workers not paid for interview days if they ask? I got a per diem for interviews that involved travel, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for one even if you're local (perhaps especially so since they aren't buying a plane ticket and such). Again please imagine you are not a freshly-scrubbed white college boy asking, but someone from a demo stereotyped for centuries as greedy or lazy or worse.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:19
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SolTerrasa posted:Really? 5 hours to evaluate years of schooling and figure out if someone can do a multifaceted job is "insane"? What do you propose as an alternative? Oh, I knew your username sounded familiar. You do AI stuff in Seattle, right? I was super into your posts about the Big Yud, thats why I implemented that HPMOR Markov bot.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:20
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twodot posted:Are tech workers not paid for interview days if they ask? I got a per diem for interviews that involved travel, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for one even if you're local (perhaps especially so since they aren't buying a plane ticket and such). Wouldn't this make things rather complicated with regard to contracts, taxes and the like?
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Sep 21, 2016 21:22
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When I went through the Amazon process, it required three or four days of PTO (2 hour remote assessments certainly cannot be done while on a "lunch" break.) Since they knew I was currently employed it was certainly 100% understood and expected that I was in a position that I could just take that much time off of work. Despite some posters calling out Google for some obnoxious practises, it is the places that are taking those practises to the obvious conclusion that really is where the scorn lies.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:23
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hobbesmaster posted:Wouldn't this make things rather complicated with regard to contracts, taxes and the like? It would just be a 1099, same as any other day labor.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:24
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WrenP-Complete posted:Oh, I knew your username sounded familiar. You do AI stuff in Seattle, right? I was super into your posts about the Big Yud, thats why I implemented that HPMOR Markov bot. Yeah, that's me.  Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Huge fan of that, but it's not in my personal toolkit yet. My focus has been on designing interviews that are about time quality, not time quantity. A big factor is an organization's discomfort with delegating authority. Nobody needs to parade past thirty different people in a job interview. Companies that can learn not to micromanage and just trust a specific person or small team to make good decisions is a more functional company across the board. I doubt there's anything I can do on the latter point but let me see if I can figure out the paid interviews stuff. This is the sort of thing that a pointed well-placed TGIF audience question could make happen. Maybe I'll learn we already do it and should publicize it better. hobbesmaster posted:Scoring an "answer" correct or incorrect is problematic when you are scoring the person's explanation as well. Could you explain the second part? Correct algorithms are usually right answers in my interviews. As to the first bit, of course unconscious bias creeps in any time two people interact, including interviews, which is part of why I try to ask questions with objective right answers.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:29
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ocrumsprug posted:When I went through the Amazon process, it required three or four days of PTO (2 hour remote assessments certainly cannot be done while on a "lunch" break.) Since they knew I was currently employed it was certainly 100% understood and expected that I was in a position that I could just take that much time off of work. Yes, Amazon is one of the worst of all. I've had run-ins with them now that they're trying to run their studio like one of their nightmare warehouses. A big part of the problem here is that companies do a lot of things just to reduce their total number of applicants down to a manageable number and then lie and say those are filters for quality. Making abusive demands like "take four days off work" isn't getting you better workers, because work quality isn't correlated to how much time you can get off work.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:32
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If a company or person doesn't value your time during the interview process they're not going to respect you on the job. It's a major red flag when interviewing. People have CVs, publication records, code samples, job histories, references and all that. I'll talk with you for an hour but if you want me to do unpaid bitch work then gently caress off. cowofwar fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 21:32
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SolTerrasa posted:I doubt there's anything I can do on the latter point but let me see if I can figure out the paid interviews stuff. This is the sort of thing that a pointed well-placed TGIF audience question could make happen. Maybe I'll learn we already do it and should publicize it better. Paid interviews are great, but if you have the power, advocate for interview sessions outside standard business hours. A Saturday recruiting session would open doors wide open for a lot of people you're completely missing out on right now. cowofwar posted:If a company or person doesn't value your time during the interview process they're not going to respect you on the job. It's a major red flag when interviewing. Yes, exactly. If someone you're recruiting doesn't have some manner of portfolio of past work for you to review then you're filling an entry-level position and should get over yourself. Face-to-face interviews are about personality and gauging the candidate's interest in the company. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 21:34
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SolTerrasa posted:Could you explain the second part? Correct algorithms are usually right answers in my interviews. As to the first bit, of course unconscious bias creeps in any time two people interact, including interviews, which is part of why I try to ask questions with objective right answers. So you don't ask anything thats NP-hard. Thats probably good.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:35
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Paid interviews are great, but if you have the power, advocate for interview sessions outside standard business hours. A Saturday recruiting session would open doors wide open for a lot of people you're completely missing out on right now. So your proposal to make the interview process suck less for prospective employees is to make it suck more -- by a precisely equal amount -- for existing employees?
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Sep 21, 2016 21:39
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Fwiw, I've hired doctors, nurses, social workers and addiction counselors (so not all licensed professionals) with about 3 hours of total interview time. Perhaps this jobs are less technical but they involve a huge amount of trust because they have a duty of care.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:40
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blah_blah posted:So your proposal to make the interview process suck less for prospective employees is to make it suck more -- by a precisely equal amount -- for existing employees? 100 recruits or 1 recruiter, hmm... I thought you tech ubermenschen were supposed to be good at math? There also exist such things as overtime pay and a non M-F work schedule.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:47
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WrenP-Complete posted:Fwiw, I've hired doctors, nurses, social workers and addiction counselors (so not all licensed professionals) with about 3 hours of total interview time. Perhaps this jobs are less technical but they involve a huge amount of trust because they have a duty of care. prospective tech employees tend to have ridiculous interview testing b/c the industry has no standards whatsoever
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Sep 21, 2016 21:51
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:prospective tech employees tend to have ridiculous interview testing b/c the industry has no standards whatsoever Who had that avatar first?
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Sep 21, 2016 21:52
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:prospective tech employees tend to have ridiculous interview testing b/c the industry has no standards whatsoever Yeah, not unlike my industry and the vanity production companies that litter the landscape, with a small tech startup there's a decent chance the people managing the hiring process have never conducted interviews before and, depending on the daddy's money quotient, possibly never even interviewed for a job before.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:54
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WrenP-Complete posted:Who had that avatar first? always me
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Sep 21, 2016 21:57
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